Need help with Opel solenoid wiring

[Timo1938]

I have a Bitter SC with a bosch starter that has only 3 connection points on it. 1) the big post for the + battery 2) the connectioned directly below it to the starter itself and 3) a single blade on the right side with two black wires with red stripes attached to it.

Problem - hot start issues. 90% failure of the starter/solenoid if temp is about 85 degrees and the car has been run on the highway, etc.

Solution - replace the Bitter/Bosch starter/solenoid unit with an Opel/Delco unit. (Graciously given to me by a guy with a couple of old Mantas.)

Current problem:

The Opel starter is a direct replacement, bolts in perfectly etc. HOWEVER, it has 2 blade connectors on the solenoid not 1 like the former Bosch unit.

I've tried putting my 2 black with red strip wires (one thick one thin) on the right blade and no start. I've tried placing them on the left blade - again no start. I've tried seperating them one on each, no start, switch sides, again no start.

I do not have any wires from the + side of the coil to the starter. A dear friend in the UK (with a Bitter) said I should see a thick red wire which should connect to one of the blades (the right one?). I don't have have wire like this located there.

So what does this red wire do? or better yet can somebody show me a diagram on how the manta starter solenoid is wired?

(to compound the problem the PO had a POS alarm system installed with a starter killer 'feature' on it. Perhaps this is why I can't 'find' the missing red wire... ugh.)

Thanks a million for the help.

Tim

[namba209]

Tim, I'm gonna guess the GT starter solenoid is the same configuration as the Manta. So that being said, there are, as you said two spade lugs, one vertical, on the left isde, looking at the connections and one horizontal on the right side. The vertical one normally goes to the + side of the coil and the right one is the power to operate the solenoid. I'm not sure how the wiring is on the Bitter, perhaps Otto, aka Tekenaar, could help in that regard. HTH.

[GTJIM]

You need to replace the convoluted Opel electrical path to the solenoid energising terminal with a relay - the circuit goes all the way through the no-start safety lockouts and the steering column. Miles of wire and several electrical on/off switches - something like a dozen separate electrical contacts that all have to be closed to let the electrickle through!
In the six-cylinder Opels with auto trans (another switch there!) something like 23 AMPS gets dragged through the system.
With a relay in the circuit there is only a couple of amps involved with activating the relay which carries the high current load - as they are designed to do. I have two 1991 Senators - one with a relay ... which starts every time and one without ..... needs a screwdriver across the terminals on the starter to get it going when it is hot.
Hmmmm - should take my own advice!

[Timo1938]

Jim,

Since you have two senators, you're likely my best source for information. you mention the need to install a relay. (I can do that. 30 amp, no problem)

which side (left or right when looking at the back of it) is the energizing terminal? (I hate to say, I nearly need a picture)

My old bitter solenoid only had one blade terminal (on the right) which had two black wires with red stripes to it. I assume (dangerous I know) that these wires provide the 12V (who knows how many amps) to the solenoid. I assume ground is through the chassis of the starter(?)

Now with this opel solenoid I've got two blade connection points. (I have zero clue which is which or what wires go to what side)

I know it's silly, but I can't figure it out. (the less than 10 minutes per day to work on it also don't make it easy. Sigh...)

Thanks again for all the support.
Tim

[baz]

tim i think the second terminal will be to supply a full 12 volts to the coil when starting as the resistor wire on a manta drops the volts down to around 9v so the coil runs cooler when the engine is running
have you used a meter on the wires to see if you are getting 12 V to the solenoid when you turn the key to poss 3 (where it would spin the starter [does it spin you did not say]) and if it spins are you getting any volts to the coil (could the P.o. alarm need to be reset after it has had no power ? i know fords factory alarms here are a real pain if you forget to reset them when you remove the batt, i wont say how long it took me to work that one out )

[namba209]

Tim, a quick and dirty way to figure out which lug is used to operate the solenoid is to take a jumper from the battery connection on the top connector of the solenoid and flash it to either one of the spade lugs. The one that will power the solenoid will arc and spark a bit, but will cause the solenoid to engage and turn the starter over. HTH.

[GTJIM]

When it is light again here, tomorrow, I will poke about under the Senny's hood and take a couple of pics for you.

[Timo1938]

Last night around 10:30 I dragged my wife out to the garage to help me with the starting process.

First - I used a screw driver to 'bark' the starter from the hot lead on the battery. - yep it works. (good news) (and I finally know which blade post needs which type of 12V to it. Ignition vs. Start)

Second, I used a volt meter to figure out which wire is the ignition wire (12V in position 2 on the switch). It's the thick Black with red stripe wire. The thinner black with red stripe wire, must be the power take-off for the fuel pump. Once I had the ignition on (12V on) then I could hear the fuel pump working. - Great. I'm glad to know I didn't break that. Ha!

So here is the problem. I CAN NOT figure out which wire supplies 12V of current when the ignition is in the start mode (position 3).

I took a picture, but I don't know how to share it out on this list because I'm still a newbie here.

In truth I have several thick red wires that use a ring connector to connect to the 'big bolt' on the starter solenoid. The biggest (of course) goes to the hot (+) side of the battery. I have another single red wire (about half that size) which when I separated it from the big bolt, didn't appear to get 12V when the key was in position #3.

Finally I have two more thick red wires that are taped together that also connect to the 'big post'. Based on all the aftermaket elecro-crap on this car (2 amps, alarm system, phone system, radar, system, 2 radios (yes 2) etc.) I had always assumed these were just take-off points to power some of that stuff. However when I disconnected these two wires from the big post and tested for 12V in position 3 (start), I didn't get anything at all. In fact the oil+amp lights on the dash in position 2 didn't even light up.

So now the good news.

1) The starter appears to work
2) I think the car will run if I put the black/red ignition wires on the left side blade-post
3) I can if necessary use a screw driver to start the car and get to my local car show Saturday (Ha! Nothing like showing off a car that doesn't start!)
4) The original single BLade + big post Bitter/Bosch solenoid and starter are getting rebuilt soon. so I can likely get back to that state of configuration if need be.
5) The best news is I'm learning a lot about my car and I'm actually enjoying working through this.


The bad news -

1) I can't find 12V in position 3 (how strange - damn that 1990 era Clifford alarm system. Granted, it could just be user error on my part that is the problem. Ha!)

2) I don't know how to load pictures for you to see my starter

3) I'll be indebted to all of you for all the help and advice. (but I'm good with that...)


I can't help but laugh at the oddity of my problem at this point.

Best regards,
Tim O'Brien
Clueless in Colorado, but not bitter about the Bitter with a 'new to me' opel stater.

[namba209]

Tim, to attach a pic, just scroll down a little in the screen that comes up when you hit the reply button. You'll see a manage attachments button. Click on that and you'll get a small panel that allows you to browse your computer and attach a pic you've saved in the computer. The only thing is, to load a pic as an attachment, it has to have a max dimension of 640 pixels. If you don't have a program to adjust the size of the pics, you can go to the downloads section on the home page and download "irfanview" to change pic sizes.

Now, to find the hot lead for the solenoid, find the wire bundle that comes from the ignition switch and check each wire for 12V with the key in the start position. That would be the wire you want to go to the spade lug you found that operates the solenoid. HTH.

[Timo1938]

I have 4 big red wires to the post and 2 black/red wires which should connect to a blade. Of those, the big one is hot with the ignition in 'on' position. It's an automatic tranny, I was told there is a switch to "park" from that wire.

The smaller one is definately the fuel pump.


I just don't have a clue which wire gets 12V of current with the ignition in start position. (testing last night had no good results).


Thanks for the help.

Tim

[GTJIM]

Still night time here - but I will get some pics for you when the sun comes up!

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by namba209 Tim, a quick and dirty way to figure out which lug is used to operate the solenoid is to take a jumper from the battery connection on the top connector of the solenoid and flash it to either one of the spade lugs. The one that will power the solenoid will arc and spark a bit, but will cause the solenoid to engage and turn the starter over. HTH.

On Opel Bosch/Delco starters, that would be the outer (left, toward fender) one! If you have a second one (toward engine bloc side), that is always a momentary contact that only has 12V on it when starting the engine. It is typically used to bypass an external coil resistor in points-type ignitions to allow ignition spark voltage to be boosted during engine start phase. Once engine starts and ignition key is released to 'run' position, ignition coil voltage drops to ~9V due to external coil resistance in coil + lead.

[namba209]

Otto, if you haven't already, could you go to the beginning of this, pls. It's on his Bitter SC Auto and I don't have a clue about the wiring on it. I'm just going by guess and by golly, using basic stuff.

Tim, use your voltmeter and double check the wires coming out of the ignition switch for 12V when the switch is in the start position. Because you have an auto tranny, the wire with 12 volts in the start position would normally go through a "neutral safety switch" located probably on the gearshift linkage. That allows the car to be started in neutral or park only. Normally, the ignition switch provides 12 volts to the safety switch, which in turn puts it to the solenoid, when the gearshift is in those two positions. This long distance tron trouble shooting is a real PIA, but fun. HTH.

[tekenaar]

Pic should explain all:

[namba209]

Thanx Otto, that makes sense to me, the only thing I see missing from both pics is the lead from the ignition switch through the neutral safety switch to the solenoid. That begs the question, where is the neutral safety switch, and what is the color of the wire that powers it and the solenoid?

[Timo1938]

I had an engineer/hotrod guy come over late last night and walk through this with me. Here is the answer.

All four big red wires on the main post belong there. (Battery, alternator, hot side of the ignition switch.)

Bitter's only have 2 other wires on their starter solenoids.

The Big Black/red wire which get's slightly less than 12V with the ingnition in 'on' position (position #2) and Slightly more volts when the ignition is in start postion (#3)

The little black/red wire gets zero power but rather routes the 12V from the bigger wire to power the fuel pump upon start up.

So the anwer is there is no separate wire to engage the starter. Somehow the original starter/solenoid could detect the slight voltage gain on the bigger black wire and kick in the starter. I know this sounds crazy, but it's true.

Therefore, I have two options.

Get my original starter/solenoid back from the mechanic who's let it sit in his shop untouched for the last week. (Grrr!) and swap out the solenoids or

build in a 'remote starter' button to connect the big post (Battery) to the lower blade in the picture.

I can use this opel starter. I just need to build a new way to wire in a starter button.


Thanks for all the help guys. I look forward to addressing this and getting to the car show tomorrow morning...


Best regards,
Tim

[jvandyke]

I got a replacement starter for my '70 GT but it's not the same. Most notably the solenoid is different. Wonder if I can use it or if I have to get another.
Thoughts? I'd love to get it back together tonight but, well, better wait until I know.
Oh, I've got a relay in the mix too fWIW

[namba209]

A quick and dirty way to check it out is hook up a set of jumper cables from a battery. Negative post to the starter flange where the mounting bolts go. Positive to the top post on the solenoid where the nut is. Hook up a jumper cable from the positive cable to one of the spade lugs, the solenoid should engage and the starter operate. If not, go to the other spade lug and see if that operates the solenoid. Which ever spade lug does not spin the starter is the one that will go to the + side of the coil. HTH.

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by jvandyke I got a replacement starter for my '70 GT but it's not the same. Most notably the solenoid is different. Wonder if I can use it or if I have to get another.

The solenoid on the left is for the later model cars, AC/Delco starter not the Bosch like you have on the right. You can swap the whole starter but not the solenoids IIRC, they mount to the starter differently. The front brackets I believe are different also.

Harold

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by hrcollinsjr The solenoid on the left is for the later model cars, AC/Delco starter not the Bosch like you have on the right. You can swap the whole starter but not the solenoids IIRC, they mount to the starter differently. The front brackets I believe are different also. Harold

You're right, the solenoid mounts are different as are the front brackets, although the right one in my pic, (my replacement, the Bosch) seems to line up decently. I'll assume my "old one" the Delco, was original to the engine (2.0 and probably from '75 or so) and not my '70 GT.
So I'm effectively attempting to put on older GT starter on a newer engine.
So, if I bolt up the "old" Bosch starter, how do I hook up the solenoid which has two spade terminals next to each other running off one connection point (they're connected together). The Delco starter has two seperate spades on either side of the big lug, my "new-to-me-but-older" Bosch has effectively one terminal with two spade connectors.

Tried to add picture of old solenoid wiring after the fact, won't let me. here it is though http://homepage.mac.com/jvandyke/oldstarter.JPG

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by namba209 A quick and dirty way to check it out is hook up a set of jumper cables from a battery. Negative post to the starter flange where the mounting bolts go. Positive to the top post on the solenoid where the nut is. Hook up a jumper cable from the positive cable to one of the spade lugs, the solenoid should engage and the starter operate. If not, go to the other spade lug and see if that operates the solenoid. Which ever spade lug does not spin the starter is the one that will go to the + side of the coil. HTH.

I haven't tried this yet, but will. Although since there is only one set of spade connections and they are attached to each other, I assume both will be the one that spins the starter, why there's two connectors I don't know. In my research I found out the coil used to get a "hit" of voltage to help fire better when cold, is this what the other spade (the one not attached to the other and coming out nearer the block on the Delco type) is for?
Effectively I'm wondering how to hook my starter relay up to this solenoid, just put the two spades on the two available connections even though they are wired togther, or not?

[gr_diver]

This very well might be wrong, since I have not tried it...

From studying the very brief sketch of the starter circuitry in my Haynes manual, spade "50" that gets the power from the switch during cranking, with everything disconnected from the starter, it looks like it should give a reading on a multimeter when checked for continuity with ground (case).

Spade "16", is what gives power to the coil, as it gets connected with the fat center post (30) only while cranking, so that one should not give a reading when tested for continuity with ground.

I reapeat this might not be the case in real condition, just looks like it from a scketch...

Also search next to the terminals, you might be lucky and find numbers (50/16) on the case...

[gr_diver]

Update:

looking at the pic with both starters' connectors and from comparing to my Bosch starter, the "coil" connection should be where I have made a red circle in the modified pic below. Could the terminal be broken off, since I can see something there, but the image is out of focus and blurry?

maybe it broke sometime in the past, and somebody soldered it to the other side? Effectively it does the same job, it sends +12V to the coil only during cranking, but from a different source than the initial design...

[jvandyke]

I'm probably making a mountain out of a molehill but I'm not too proud to ask stupid questions.
http://www.opelgt.com/forums/1a-star...t-starter.html

Seems this terminal, when adding a starter relay, is often either left alone (original -coil?- wire from harness left on) or it is attached to the relay like I had done to mine. I guess I'm still trying to figure out what this connection is actually for and what to do with this wire (coil?) when there's nowhere to connect it on the older solenoids.

As per broken terminal: I thought the same thing but it appears to be a plastic "knock out" that was never knocked out. I did notice what looked like "homemade" solder joints too though, could be someone modified this solenoid? I did bring both starters to work with me as I thought I might stop by a parts place to have them both checked just for fun, although I'm not sure a "flaky" bendix would show up on a test (although both starters are "on ice' in my trunk so the suspected bad one may not work when tested.
If I get a chance I'll take another clearer picture of the "Bosch" solenoid and post it in about 15 minutes. (my camera stinks for close ups, I do have a cool digital microscope but not here, with that I could show you the hairs on a flea)

[jvandyke]

Here's the solenoid close up.