crank and spin

[jvandyke]

Just got my first Opel last week. Mid winter here so not diving in too deep but has gone for a few little joy rides.
First issue;
when I turn the key to start, she turns over just once it seems then something somewhere gives up and she spins. Does this everytime. I assume it should be cranking a bit more then that. My first move is go through and clean up every electrical connection I can get at, clean and grease.
Thought I'd ask though so as to prepare for some wrenching down the road.
Should probably look into an Otto start anyway, and isnt' there something you're supposed to do to the fuse box, headlight wiring.......

[West Coast GT]

Sounds like marginal power getting to the solenoid.
1st - Let's rule your battery out. Either swap it for one you know is good, or, disconnect it and jump from another car directly to you battery cables.

2nd - If the symptoms persist, look to electrical connections as you've already suggested. Clean them up.

3rd - Use a stout screwdriver and, without grounding it to the block or oil dipstick) use it to jump the two large connector lugs on the starter. Make sure the car is out-of-gear when you do this or you'll find you've just ran over your own foot and created quite the cocktail party story.

4th - OK, problem's still there? Before you send for a new starter, pull the old one, tear it apart, and clean all internal connections. Clean all of the old crud around the bearings. Re-Lube the bearings. If you can get them, replace the brushes.

5th - If all else fails, take the starter into an automotive electrical shop for a re-build. Try not to take a trade. Make sure they bench test it before they give it back to you. You'd be surprised; I picked up a re-manufactured alternator from Napa Auto Parts and it wouldn't even spin. (yeah - they told me it had been tested )

[namba209]

Referring to your original post, you said the engine turns over once, then "it" spins. I presume you mean the starter motor just spins on and isn't engaged to the flywheel. Obviously it does continue to be engaged some times or you wouldn't be taking the short drives. The function of the solenoid is twofold, the elctromagnet coil pulls a piston to the rear of the starter, which engages the pinion gear, through a pivoting action into the flywheel. The same action forces a large washer into the contacts that supply battery power to the starter motor and ignition coil. If the bore the piston slides in is dirty, full travel of the pinion gear into the flywheel is inhibited. The same can be true if the pivot arms have loose or worn attaching hardware. HTH.

[jvandyke]

Alright, I'll start in on it.
FWIW, when I got the car off the trailer, about 15 degrees at the time, the car didn't want to start, it did this spinning routine right off the bat, but it cranked FOREVER, I couldn't believe that battery wasn't dying it took me at least 15 minutes to get the car going.
Then I drained the battery somehow overnight as I was dinking with electrics seeing what worked and what didn't, not sure if I left the key on or what I did but I jumped it, ran it, drove it. Put it on a tender. It's been on a tender ever since.

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by namba209 Referring to your original post, you said the engine turns over once, then "it" spins. I presume you mean the starter motor just spins on and isn't engaged to the flywheel.

correct, "it" is the starter spinning (or that's what it sounds like to my untrained Opel ear)

It always engages for a split second, enough to get at least partial engine turn over, which is enough to start her up, if she's warm. Takes several attempts if cold (although I've only tried to start her 5 times so far, remember it's cold here now, like, -don't even look crosswise at that vinyl or it shatters- kinda cold)

PS, since quite a few common mods have been done to this car already, I'm wondering where the most normal place to mount an Otto start would be? If it already has one, I don't think I need another.

[markandson]

Very easy to tell if it has an O'start. Follow the wires from the solenoid back, if they go into a harness that heads through the plateau in front of the firewall, then you don't have an O'start. If one of the wires from the solenoid goes to a relay mounted somewhere in the engine compartment, then you do have one. An Otto Start is just a relay that is in between the key switch and the starter solenoid.

[wrangler]

Though I could be wrong, I thought that that bronze colored box on the driver's side firewall was a starter relay? Or is that for the ignition coil? Did you ever determine what all the other little 'extra' items were? (i.e., that filter and other round device on the passenger side, and the item mounted under the steering wheel?)

[opelnut10]

Originally Posted by jvandyke correct, "it" is the starter spinning (or that's what it sounds like to my untrained Opel ear) It always engages for a split second, enough to get at least partial engine turn over, which is enough to start her up, if she's warm. Takes several attempts if cold (although I've only tried to start her 5 times so far, remember it's cold here now, like, -don't even look crosswise at that vinyl or it shatters- kinda cold) PS, since quite a few common mods have been done to this car already, I'm wondering where the most normal place to mount an Otto start would be? If it already has one, I don't think I need another.

You have what is called a "bendix spring" that is activated by the selonoid (Sp) it throws or engages the starter gear into the teeth on the flywheel if that spring is weak it will not fully engage the drive gear of the starter into the flywheel causing the condition you are discribing.

[GTJIM]

The main culprit with GT ( well Opel ... as they used the same wiring through to the 1990's!!) starter problems is voltage drop through the poor wee ignition switch. Routing up to 20 amps through the steering column wiring fries it eventually and causes large reduction in the voltage the stater solenoid "sees". The solenoid is the smaller round cylinder on top of the starter motor. This reduction in voltage causes the solenoid to release and disengage the starter pinion from the flywheel - the starter still spins but is not engaged.

This is fixed by placing an electrical relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid to reduce the current through the steering column to about 1 amp. The relay then carries the heavy current - as it is designed to do.

An "Otto Start" is the kit, advertised in the Classified For Sale section on this site, which contains the relay and wires necessary to do the job.
http://www.opelgt.com/forums/vbclass...php?do=ad&id=3

Here is a schematic showing how the wires are redone:

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by jvandyke .....when I turn the key to start, she turns over just once it seems then something somewhere gives up and she spins. Does this everytime.....

Had a problem like that after changing the engine, the start motor would turn like the battery was almost flat.
I knew that the start motor from my original engine worked good so I switched them, never had a problem since, stil have to look at the start motor to see what's wrong with it.

[sawdust]

Originally Posted by opelnut10 You have what is called a "bendix spring" that is activated by the selonoid (Sp) it throws or engages the starter gear into the teeth on the flywheel if that spring is weak it will not fully engage the drive gear of the starter into the flywheel causing the condition you are discribing.

Another possibility, one that I suffered through, was loss of teeth on the flywheel.

[jvandyke]

Took a picture, no Otto that I can see, also some added fuses, for ?

[baronbors]

Originally Posted by jvandyke Took a picture, also some added fuses, for ?

Best guess is the front headlights?? Pull them out and see what doesn't work

[jvandyke]

Here's that other picture. Lots of doodads on this baby. The fuse area under the dash scares me
I'll clean up those solenoid wires, order up an Otto and see were I'm at, possibly rebuild the starter, clean up battery and grounds and the like as well.

can't attach pictures anymore, says "uploading please wait" and sits there forever, here it is on a web server

[bionic_chronik]

can anyone direct me to how to remove starter from 73 gt, or would it be easier to just remove the solenoid without removing starter, that is where i think my problem is, starter will try to crank but will just spin. if anyone can help it would be apreciated thankyou

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by bionic_chronik can anyone direct me to how to remove starter from 73 gt, or would it be easier to just remove the solenoid without removing starter, that is where i think my problem is, starter will try to crank but will just spin. if anyone can help it would be apreciated thankyou

If it spins, no problem with the solenoid . . . it's the Bendix unit, a one-way clutched gear that engages flywheel ring gear. It can be replaced . . . it's available separately, but means disassembly of the starter itself and you'll need to remove the solenoid assembly from the starter first, as well.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by bionic_chronik can anyone direct me to how to remove starter from 73 gt, or would it be easier to just remove the solenoid without removing starter, that is where i think my problem is, starter will try to crank but will just spin. if anyone can help it would be apreciated thankyou

I moved your duplicate thread here and deleted your identical question. Since you're a new member, I posted a PM to you with the reason for it.

[jvandyke]

This is a bit premature but the ONE TIME I cranked my car the other day, it grabbed fired immediately (after sitting 5 days and really really cold and no choke on her)
So far all I had done was clean contacts just a little right at the solenoid. No idea if that had anything to do with it "grapping" better but maybe.

bionik:
I'd advise you go through your connections (as suggested in this thread) before ripping into the starter, can't hurt, might help and should be done anyway.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by bionic_chronik Originally Posted by jvandyke can anyone direct me to how to remove starter from 73 gt, or would it be easier to just remove the solenoid without removing starter, that is where i think my problem is, starter will try to crank but will just spin. if anyone can help it would be apreciated thankyou This is a bit premature but the ONE TIME I cranked my car the other day, it grabbed fired immediately (after sitting 5 days and really really cold and no choke on her) So far all I had done was clean contacts just a little right at the solenoid. No idea if that had anything to do with it "grapping" better but maybe. bionik: I'd advise you go through your connections (as suggested in this thread) before ripping into the starter, can't hurt, might help and should be done anyway.

Always a good practice, but since he's already said his starter spins but, evidently, doesn't engage the flywheel ring, his problem is likely not! in his starter's electrical connections or the solenoid . . .

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by jvandyke Took a picture, no OttoStart that I can see, also some added fuses, for ?

Copied and added text for solenoid connections to your first pic:

[bionic_chronik]

my question was does anyone know process for removing starter and is it difficult to get to? thankyou

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Copied and added text for solenoid connections to your first pic:

so that "fusible link" should I do something about the condition of that?

[Opelkurt]

Originally Posted by tekenaar If it spins, no problem with the solenoid . . . it's the Bendix unit, a one-way clutched gear that engages flywheel ring gear. It can be replaced . . . it's available separately, but means disassembly of the starter itself and you'll need to remove the solenoid assembly from the starter first, as well.

I agree. I've seen this many times with older Bosch starters, and when the Bendix is getting worn out it tends to slip more easily in cold weather, probably because it takes much more effort to turn over a colder engine. I've had the problem disappear in springtime only to return the following winter.

-Kurt

[Paul]

The reason the bendix slips more easily when cold is because the lubricating grease inside gets stiff at low temps. The inside of the bendix has small round pins that are pushed into a mating slot(internal cam) with springs. When it is cold the spring force has difficulty overcoming the extra friction of the cold grease. The slopes of the cam ramps are not symetrical, one side has more gentle slope than the other. In one direction it can transmit torque in the other it can not. Therefore when the engine starts to spin faster than the starter bendix can slip.... in the opposite direction.

In the automotive re-man industry, it was common to wash out the old grease, re-luricate and then test with a torque meter.

To install new grease, a starter shaft was drilled down the center and a couple of radial holes were drilled into the center hole. A lincoln single shot grease applicator, which was calibrated for the correct amount of grease, was used to re-grease the drive...

[jvandyke]

I installed a starter relay tonight. I also wanted to clean up the battery terminals. The negative needed NOTHING to come off, just lifted it right off the post it was so loose. Nice. It wouldn't tighten up either, probably been like that for eons. Positive wasn't much better. I replaced them both cleaned and greased (dieletric) the works but I haven't tried to turn her over yet. I'm hoping that was part of my problem.
The thought of cranking over an engine when it's 10 degrees or so, well, unless I absolutely have to I won't. Makes me cringe thinking about it. Sucks to work on stuff when it's cold like this, plastic disintegrates......yuck