Lights out weak battery?

[jvandyke]

First: confession of stupidity;
I was working on my carb, adjusting linkage so was squirting some gas in as I messed around. Later she stumbled and stuttered on start and died and wouldn't fire for nothing. I figured I flooded it. Waited a couple hours, nope. Pulled plugs, looked fine?!? Swapped 'em. Checked spark. No start. I take off the air cleaner and let it sit overnight. Next morning I want to take it to work but still no start. Then suddenly idiot remembers he turned off the fuel pump!!!!!

So, I had been cranking on it much more then normal. I leave for work, headlights on, ammeter is a bit on positive side. About 6 miles later on highway cruis'n at 70mph, dash lights disappear and my headlights don't seem to be illuminating anything (it was just past dawn so not too dark).
I turn off headlights and just keep going. Later I have dash lights when I turn on running lights.
Now, after 40+ miles, still no headlights and ammeter is still on positive, trickle charger/tender is on it and reading charging.
Should I suspect battery/generator and what do you make of the loss of electrics like that? (stereo still worked fine, car still started well all day too). I will start running checks but thought I'd throw out the experience first.

[namba209]

Darn, that is a wierd one. Could be you lost the headlight relay by a loose ground at the fuse panel stud, or the power lead to the relay switch controlled by a microswitch in the left headlight bucket. Turning on the lites with the parking lite switch energizes the IP lites too You're charging circuit appeared to be functioning, but I'd check the 4 studs in the center of the fuse panel. Those are the main battery/alternator/ammeter connections.

[Lindsay]

I would disconnect negative battery ground and charge the battery.

Check battery with voltage meter for 12.6 minimun volts to ensure battery is OK, before starting any major troubleshooting on GT.

[jvandyke]

Alright, tender is still charging, I got 12.6 off the battery, not sure why the tender is insisting on charging still. I'm going to check some grounds, try to figure out where the relay is. Hey, this takes my mind off my Weber issues!

[namba209]

Normal static voltage on a 12V battery is about 12.6V. They will continue to take a charge until the battery amp capacity is reached. I've had batteries go clear to 17V+ to get the amp capacity where it's supposed to be. With a trickle charger that only has a 1 amp charging rate, it will continue to increase the voltage so it can push the amps into the battery. Normal charging rate in a car system is 13.8V to 14.2V, just to push the amps in to the battery. Here's a hint from the commercial electric transmission lines. Most high power transmission lines are up into the 125K volts at about 1 amp and it takes the volts to move that one amp along the lines. When they get to the power stations, they use step down transformers to drop the volts down at the same time increasing the amps. Ohm's Law.

Unless the PO has moved things around, the headlight relay and the dimmer relay are on the front (firewall side) of the fuse panel. HTH.

[Gordy]

WATT are you talking about

[jvandyke]

Tender got the battery back up. No headlights yet though. No white warning "not locked" light either. Pretty much nothing. Will check relay and go from there.

[namba209]

Check fuses #5 and #6, one puts power to a left headlight microswitch for the headlight relay, the other powers the headlight indicator lite through the other left headlight bucket microswitch. The indicator lite is grounded through the right headlight microswitch. Also, check the Green IP connector, both wires for the indicator light go through it also. The power for the headlight relay switch comes from the Black wire at fues #6, goes tothe microswitch and returns via the Yellow/Black wire to the relay. The ground for the switch is at the fuse panel support stud. HTH.

[jvandyke]

I poked around a bit more. No power anywhere at either relay with key on and lights up. Seems like it could be a micro switch then? Still no "not locked" warning light. Parking lights work fine from their own switch but do not come on with headlights up.

[namba209]

O.K., with DESTEC schematic in hand, here's the path to and from both microswitches. For the headlight relay microswitch in the left bucket: Black wire from the firewall side of fuse #6, straight to the microswitch. From the microswitch, Yellow/Black wire straight to the headlight relay pin #85. For the indicator lite microswitches: From the driver's side of fuse #5, Red/Black wire straight to the left microswitch. From the microswitch, Brown/Black wire to Green IP connector, Pin #5, from the connector straight to one side of the indicator lite. When the headlights are in any other position than "Locked Down" the microswitch powers one side of the lite. From the lite, Gray/Green wire to a male/female disconnect around the fuse panel, then to right headlight microswitch, Common Pin. With the headlights in any other position than "Locked Up" Common Pin is grounded through the NC (normally closed) side of the microswitch. When lites are "Locked Up" Common pin is connected to NO (Normally Open) side of the microswitch by White/Yellow wire to the headlight relay Pin #87. J. J. Wheatley suggests this wire (White/Yellow)is not needed. HTH.

[Lindsay]

Over a year ago, I was driving GT. Flipped headlights up and no lighting, as well as no click from headlight dimmer relay. Parking lights would light from rocker switch. Next day, I replaced headlight relay and problem was resolved.

Opel GT Source has replacement relay (P/N 5061; $45.00) if used headlight relay can not be found from friend or eBay. No GT relays or fuse box assemblies listed on eBay right now.

I am suggesting that headlight relay failed, as I had same symptoms as described.
Caution: Terminal 85 (12 GA RED from terminal connector nut on fuse box.) on headlight relay is always hot/ on and should have inline fuse.

[jvandyke]

Wow, and I thought fool'n with carbs was complicated. I'll head out to the garage with that printed out and see what I can find out. Wonder where this Green IP dude is? I'll follow wires. In the mean time, for your viewing pleasure, this is what the PO had in place of fuse #7 It was screwed in on one contact, press fit on the other and it's 15AMPs, yes I know, I should not have let that go un-inspected for so long, does it have anything to do with this issue? Don't know. It has been replaced with a proper fuse. It does not look blown to me but it shows some sort of action. I will test it.
Yikes.

[namba209]

That looks to be some sort of a momentary relay. Lindsay brought up a good idea, that the relay could have given up the ghost. A quick way to check is to roll up the headlights and see if there is 12V to Pin #85 on the relay. If there is no voltage could be the microswitch is stuck. If there is voltage there, then the contacts inside the relay could be eroded away or could just use some cleaning of the contact surfaces.

[jvandyke]

As for the PO's "fuse". It had continuity so was "working", as I had dash lights and such, it must have been. It was slightly discolored on the top, with some whitish "hot" spot on the bottom contact (you can't see it in the picture). How this is supposed to work and why it's there I can't say. I replaced it with a normal fuse but could only get my hands on an 8 amp for the moment.
I will look for hot at relay as described.........sometime. Dual birthdays at my house today, daughter turns 14 and youngest son is now 7. Was seriously thinking of taking daughter on GT trip tomorrow, even thinking of last minute run to National or Dyno days, that's scrapped now of course, but probably just as well. Have 11 + 13/14 year old girls coming over for a "party" tonight.

Hoping it's the relay as mess'n with the micro switches sounds like a pain. Relay is at least somewhat easier to get at.

[jvandyke]

Originally Posted by Lindsay Over a year ago, I was driving GT. Flipped headlights up and no lighting, as well as no click from headlight dimmer relay. Parking lights would light from rocker switch. Next day, I replaced headlight relay and problem was resolved. Opel GT Source has replacement relay (P/N 5061; $45.00) if used headlight relay can not be found from friend or eBay. No GT relays or fuse box assemblies listed on eBay right now. I am suggesting that headlight relay failed, as I had same symptoms as described. Caution: Terminal 85 (12 GA RED from terminal connector nut on fuse box.) on headlight relay is always hot/ on and should have inline fuse.

Will check relay next. Which one was it for you? Dimmer one or "main" one?
inboard or outboard? (right or left confuses me since I'm upside down when looking at them)

[MICAH1]

Put a shout out to the folks on this site for a under the dash HEADLAMP RELAY and a HEADLAMP DIMMER RELAY. If that does not work then check your headlights connectors to the bulbs w/ ground or the dreaded MICRO SWITCHS stuck to the off position.... You might want to expose the wiring mass that runs along the left side right below the hood for fried high/low beam (white/yellow) damage. Happy hunting!!!!!

[namba209]

Originally Posted by jvandyke Will check relay next. Which one was it for you? Dimmer one or "main" one? inboard or outboard? (right or left confuses me since I'm upside down when looking at them)

The headlight relay is the one with the most wires hooked up to it. The dimmer relay only has a few wires attached. HTH.

[jvandyke]

Alright, will check relays. If bad, will tear apart and fix/replace. If good, I'll assume micros and bypass them via fog light switch in dash (currently running fuel pump, that'll get moved over to rear defroster switch although I should take out the stupid switch as I KEEP LEAVING IT OFF). Not my first choice really, rather have things work as intended.
BTW, PO has some 10 amp blade fuses sticking out of the wiring hareness as it heads toward radiator firewall. They did not look blown, can't tell what wires they're on. Evidence of more custom work.

It is my sincerest hope that I can sip on a beer and play with electrics into the wee hours of the morning.

as always: thanks for all the input.

[Lindsay]

Headlamp Relay has four (4) terminals, 87:

12 Gray/ Black = Left running lights and tail lights
12 Gray/ Red = Right running lights and tail lights.
12 Gray/ Green = License plate lights & instrument lights
12 White/ Yellow = Two (2) wires crimped on one (1) terminal; routed to headlamp dimmer relay

Headlamp relay is outboard, and dimmer relay is inboard.

[jvandyke]

Well, I think it is relay then as, with key on and headlights up, I have voltage at the yellow/black wire (and the all red one). So this would indicate the micro switch is okay but the relay is not, right? I'm looking at tearing down the relay tomorrow and seeing what's going on in there.
Here is a picture for clarification and the convenience and enlightenment of those who follow.

PS added picture of labled fuses for posterity as well.

[OriginalOpelGTOwner]

Are those red fuses rated at 15 amperes? My fuse panel only has yellow (5 amperes) and white (8 amperes) per the onwer's manual.

Also, I never really understood why the German engineers chose to make the headlamp electrical circuits so complicated and tie it into the mechanical headlamp pivot system. If and when my headlamp relay fails, I am going to try and figure out how to just rewire the lighting sub-system with fancy toggle switches like they do in race cars to make it more reliable.

[jvandyke]

Is red 15 amp? I have no idea. I found white (8). Assumed red was 5 but could be PO put in 15 across the board? Loser. I guess I better go shopping again.

[Lindsay]

[QUOTE=jvandyke;140484
Is red 15 amp? I have no idea. I found white (8). Assumed red was 5 but could be PO put in 15 across the board? Loser. I guess I better go shopping again.[/QUOTE]

VW (& Opel) Fuses:
White = 8 Amp
Red = 16 Amp
Blue = 25 Amp

Forgot what color is used for lower than 8 Amp? I used White/ 8 Amp fuses for decades in GT without issues.

Chief: "Now listen carefully: [complex instructions] Did you get that?" Max: "Not all of it." Chief: "Which part didn't you get?" Max: "The part after 'Now listen carefully'."

[gr_diver]

If I remember correctly, the 5A fuses are yellow. It's raining outside, so I can't go to the car and check at the moment...

[jvandyke]

I'll put in 8's then. Can't find 5's anywhere.
I did pull the relay it is burned, looks like to me anyway. I'll upload a picture sometime. The coil had a paper sleeve or something on it, burned and charred. I think there was a thin wire from the brown wire's terminal (86) to the coil, it was burned off if so. I resoldered that wire and hooked it back up but it failed again. Probably the coil is toast. I guess I need a new relay.