Electronic Ignition Systems

[tomking]

Hey! Anyone know of this electronic ignition system??
Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits for VW, Volkswagen, Bosch
I just saw them listed in the Opel section on ebay. I have not heard of them but much cheaper than Pertronix, even at Bugstuff Thanksgiving pricing of $49. Seem to be in Texas, so any Texas Opelers know of or use them?

[David McCollam]

Hi Tom,

That one is a new one on me. It has a striking similarity to the Pertronix, with the exception of the color. The mounting plate and accessory pieces are also almost identical. Could be a deal at the $39.95 price. I've never heard of the company until now.

Dave

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by tomking Hey! Anyone know of this electronic ignition system?? Electronic Ignition Conversion Kits for VW, Volkswagen, Bosch I just saw them listed in the Opel section on ebay. I have not heard of them but much cheaper than Pertronix, even at Bugstuff Thanksgiving pricing of $49. Seem to be in Texas, so any Texas Opelers know of or use them?

Looks identical to Pertronix, even the mounting brackets. They appear to use the same amplified (that's why it needs 12V) "Hall-Effect" trigger module and quad magnet distributor cam module as the Pertronix unit. Looks good to me!

[Nathan Acree]

Makes me wonder if the pertronics patent expired?

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Nathan Acree Makes me wonder if the pertronics patent expired?

. . . or maybe signed a Licensing Agreement?

[ungermm]

Good find Tom, maybe I'll test it out if no one else has already. $39.95 plus $7 for shipping/handling. Worth a try. Jerry

[ralf-who]

I bought this on eBay and installed it yesterday.

Works swell, just like a Pertronix ignitor.

Two issues: The grommet that closes the hole in the distributor is rectangular; my opening was round. Ended up cutting out the grommet and using some RTV to seal the hole. The two leads are too small to reach the coil on a Manta. I used the existing coil end and lengthened the negative wire and added a few inches to the positive lead and crimped on a connector.

I've used the Pertronix setup in a whole bunch of other vehicles and this product is the same for a lot less money.

10 minutes to install, including adjusting the wire lengths.

Be sure to re-time your engine when done.

One advantage over the Pertronix is that you can take the positive off the coil; for Pertronix, you need a full 12 volt source.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by ralf-who I bought this on eBay and installed it yesterday. Works swell, just like a Pertronix ignitor. Two issues: The grommet that closes the hole in the distributor is rectangular; my opening was round. Ended up cutting out the grommet and using some RTV to seal the hole. The two leads are too small to reach the coil on a Manta. I used the existing coil end and lengthened the negative wire and added a few inches to the positive lead and crimped on a connector. I've used the Pertronix setup in a whole bunch of other vehicles and this product is the same for a lot less money. 10 minutes to install, including adjusting the wire lengths. Be sure to re-time your engine when done. One advantage over the Pertronix is that you can take the positive off the coil; for Pertronix, you need a full 12 volt source.

Could you copy a quote from the install instructions regarding the 12V source requirement or scan the entire instruction sheet and post it here please? Thanks.

[ralf-who]

Better yet, here is the link that they reference in their instructions:

Instructions - Installing the Hot-Spark Ignition in Bosch Distributors




The Pertronix unit requires a pure 12v source, often NOT the + side of the coil.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by ralf-who Better yet, here is the link that they reference in their instructions: Instructions - Installing the Hot-Spark Ignition in Bosch Distributors The Pertronix unit requires a pure 12v source, often NOT the + side of the coil.

Originally Posted by Installing the Hot-Spark Electronic Ignition Conversion Kit in Bosch Distributors Please read all these instructions before installing the Hot-Spark Electronic Ignition Conversion Kit: DO NOT use an HEI-style coil. For four-cylinder engines, use a coil with resistance in the primary circuit of at least 3.0 ohms (Ω) The red wire connects to positive (+ or 15 on Bosch coil) The black wire connects to negative (- or 1 on Bosch coil) DO NOT reverse the polarity of these two wires - it could destroy the ignition module! This module is designed for 12V negative ground applications.

Doesn't really answer the question of trigger 12V source . . . bear with me for a moment and I'll explain.

First, noone says that the Pertronix won't work with the red wire connected to the + (15) side of the coil, it's just not "as designed" and results in a lower, less reliable trigger voltage when connected to an EXTERNAL resistance coil like the stock Opel hookup . . . ~9V at the coil plus side with the engine running and a full 12V there only during start.

Second, the Hot-Spark instructions state, "use a coil with resistance in the primary circuit of at least 3.0 ohms (Ω)", but this fails to distinguish between internal and external resistance coils, each of which is designed with unique connection requirements to the 12V source! So far, the only difference is that Hot-Spark is vague (IMO) about trigger "plus" side sourcing while Pertronix is precise.

Third, Hot-Spark emphatically states, "DO NOT use an HEI-type coil or a low-resistance coil with the Hot-Spark module - it could destroy the Hot-Spark module and void the replacement warranty." . . . low resistance coils being those that require an external resistance for "as designed" operation (reduced current draw and temperature control).

Hot-Spark goes on to recommend four specific Bosch coils for use with their trigger module, namely:

0 221 119 054 Bosch Red coil, 12V
0 221 119 021 Bosch Black coil, 12V
0 221 119 027 Bosch Blue coil, 12V (VW 043 905 115C)
0 221 119 020 Bosch Black coil, 12V (VW 022 905 115C)

. . . and makes no distinction between external resistance coils, the first two, and internal resistance coils, the second two. Proper coil connections will result in ~9V at the "plus" side on the external resistance coils (black 021 - stock Opel) and 12V on the internal resistance coils (black 020 - stock VW).

Bosch instructions state that their low resistance coils, the first two, MUST use an external resistance for proper operation. The correct, "as designed", Hot-Spark "plus-side" connection question remains unanswered in my opinion!

[ralf-who]

Whoa! You are quite correct. I really didn't bother to go that deep into the issue. I was happy to get a reading of just over 3Ω from the coil.

For 20 bucks less than the Pertronix, I am happy. (but I ALWAYS keep the points, condensor, and extra coil in the trunk).

As far as performance change are concerned (you didn't ask but other folks might be interested) there is nothing perceptable, at least nothing that I can ascertain; the whole point of this is reliability and avoiding the eventual deterioration of contact points.

[ungermm]

Hot-Spark BOS4V1 compares to the Pertronix 1847V. The Pertronix patent has expired. Pertronix units usually price $60 - $70.
About 3 weeks ago, I corresponded with Roy Robertson of Hot-Spark.com. At that time he offered members of OpelGT.com units at a reduced price. Normally priced at $39.95, if you tell them you are a member of OpelGT.com, they will reduce the price to $37.95. There is a $7 shipping and handling fee. Also, if anyone wanted to buy 10 units, the cost would be only $300 and a $7 shipping fee. I started a Hot-Spark thread but not much response was generated. It would be nice to have someone do a product review and have Hot-Spark listed in the discount/affiliates page. I haven't bought one myself yet. Christmas shopping kind of took priority. Jerry


BOS4V1 applications:
Opel
1967-66 Kadett
1972-67 Kadett 1.1 Litre
1974-68 GT 1900, Kadett 1.9 Litre
1968 Kadett 1.5 Litre
1975-72 Manta
1975-1900

[ralf-who]

Having used both, now, I fully endorse the Hot-Spark product. The Only difference in the package was that the Pertronix came with a plastic gauge with which to space the pickup from the magnet, not really necessary if you use a dwell meter.

For the record, Corvair owners have never been able to run the Pertronix from the + side of the coil; this resulted really bad performance at higher RPMs. Moving to a switched 12v source solved the problem. There is documentation on this, if you would like, at and around <VV> Yet another Pertronix Ignitor question

[ralf-who]

By the way, if you want a kick, buy a clear distributor cap. You can watch the advance mechanism at work and this will easily take the place of watching first-generation computer lights blinking in a darkened, smoke-filled computer room in 1968. (Sorry, temp flashback)

Whoa! What a rush.

Anyway, they're available for the Bosch distributor, here is an example:
eBay Motors: VW CLEAR TRANSPARENT DISTRIBUTOR CAPS EMPI 8790 (item 260063652953 end time Dec-23-06 10:40:01 PST)

And if you dare, watch the whole thing at night. You get to SEE where your spark is dissipating (jumping the gap) and why you have ignition noise in your radio.

This actually leads me to a question. As the spark has to jump the gap between the rotor and the nearest terminal inside the cap, how much voltage do you suppose is lost? Said another way, how much better performance do you think is attainable by machining that gap away? (By "machining", I mean reducing the gap by building up either the terminal(s) and/or the end of the rotor with conducting material.)

Looking for your answers/suggestions...

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by ungermm Hot-Spark BOS4V1 compares to the Pertronix 1847V. The Pertronix patent has expired. Pertronix units usually price $60 - $70. About 3 weeks ago, I corresponded with Roy Robertson of Hot-Spark.com. . . . I haven't bought one myself yet. Christmas shopping kind of took priority. Jerry . . .

. . . THAT would indicate that the original Pertronix "plus-side" wiring is the correct one . . . i.e. a FULL 12V with separate wiring for external resistance coils. There would be ZERO incentive for Hot-Spark to do anything other than make a direct copy of the original, well-proven Pertronix design.

Just another case in point,

Originally Posted by ralf-who Having used both, now, I fully endorse the Hot-Spark product. . . . For the record, Corvair owners have never been able to run the Pertronix from the + side of the coil; this resulted really bad performance at higher RPMs. Moving to a switched 12v source solved the problem. There is documentation on this, if you would like, at and around <VV> Yet another Pertronix Ignitor question

. . . Corvairs use external resistance coils, so, ~9V at the + terminal of the coil. The reason it's much more noticeable on a 6-cyl than on a 4-cyl . . . 50% more sparks (3 vs. 2) required per engine revolution! This settles the Hot-Spark 12V connection issue . . . PERIOD!

. . . hook it up like this if you want to assure the best trigger module performance possible . . . regardless of the one used!

[N61WP]

I briefly used one of the clear caps with my Pertronix and MSD box...very cool....it melted after only a few hundred miles!
Jc

[wrench459]

humm just thinking use a hot spark to trigger a MSD DIS module
Programmable DIS-2, PN 6212
humm how to locate number one cyl. firing

[baz]

Originally Posted by wrench459 humm just thinking use a hot spark to trigger a MSD DIS module Programmable DIS-2, PN 6212 humm how to locate number one cyl. firing

read jordans recent posts in the megasquirt group buy thread ? if you are after a crank sensor idea

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by ralf-who ...... and using some RTV to seal the ......

Whats RTV???

[BobCGT]

RTV= Room temperature vinyl

many types for many uses.

[jordan]

Originally Posted by wrench459 humm just thinking use a hot spark to trigger a MSD DIS module Programmable DIS-2, PN 6212 humm how to locate number one cyl. firing

I honestly would not use such a thing as that. I think it is far too much money for what you will gain. And as it seems versatile it is really quite limited, if you want to go to a distributorless set up with maybe a VR sensor I would use the ford edis set up with a kit project called megajolt. You can do a google search for it to get more information but basically it is the ignition control aspect of the megasquirt but without the efi part of it, I have not seen any pricing for it, but it would probably be around the $100 range and then you will really be in business for a lot less money for a really versatile set up.

[Paul]

Originally Posted by BobCGT RTV= Room temperature vinyl many types for many uses.

Nope RTV stands for Room Temperature Vulcanizing......

I've won many a beer over this piece of trivia.......

[Lindsay]

eBay Motors: Electronic Ignition for Opel Kadett, GT, 1900, Manta (item 220125822981 end time Jul-07-07 03:52:36 PDT)

Buy It Now $39.95 on eBay + $8.05 S&H.
Compatible Ignition Coils, Ballast Resistors, Hot-Spark Electronic Ignition
Use a coil with resistance in the primary circuit of at least 3.2 Ohms (Ω).

Instructions - Installing the Hot-Spark Ignition in Bosch Distributors

[P.J. Romano]

I am using Hot-Spark BOS4V1 electronic ignition and it works fine.
Installation was smooth except that I had to use round rubber grommet where the wires were exiting the distributor. The one that comes with the ignition is square type. No more points, no condenser, clean installation.
The primary circuit of my Accel ignition coil was bellow required 3 Ohms and Roy Robertson from the Hot-Spark recommended Bosch Blue coil.
Here are some pics.

[Lindsay]

Originally Posted by P.J. Romano I am using Hot-Spark BOS4V1 electronic ignition and it works fine. Installation was smooth except that I had to use round rubber grommet where the wires were exiting the distributor. The one that comes with the ignition is square type. No more points, no condenser, clean installation. The primary circuit of my Accel ignition coil was bellow required 3 Ohms and Roy Robertson from the Hot-Spark recommended Bosch Blue coil. Here are some pics.

Did you use (keep) Opel resistor wire?

My distributor from 1972 GT (imported Dec 1971) used square hole in distributor. Kit should include round grommet, but (somewhat) easy to find round grommets.