points and condensers - weak spark

[2_Late_I_Won]

How hard is it to replace points and condensers? And how do you do it? Thanks Brian

[namba209]

Actually it's quite easy. Just remove the distriutor cap and pull the rotor off the shaft. You can see how it all goes together. Just remove the screws holding the points plate and condensor and replace both items. Of course you will have to time the engine when you're finished. HTH.

[baronbors]

It's pretty simple but even better is to change over to electronic ignition and you'll never have to do it again.

[Paul]

One short cut would be to already have bumped the engine over where the points are on the high spot of the distributor lobe. Then remove the hold down screws for the condenser and points. And be careful to NOT DROP THE SCREWS...

Now the new points can be installed with the hold down screw firmed down but not tight... Now using a feeler gauge and a screw driver adjust the point gap... when complete tighten the screw and lube the lobe

There are several methods to bump the engine around to get the distributor to the high spot. They include using the ignition key, the screw driver in the starter trick, and rolling the car forward with the car in gear...

HTH

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Paul One short cut would be to already have bumped the engine over where the points are on the high spot of the distributor lobe. Then remove the hold down screws for the condenser and points. And be careful to NOT DROP THE SCREWS... Now the new points can be installed with the hold down screw firmed down but not tight... Now using a feeler gauge and a screw driver adjust the point gap... when complete tighten the screw and lube the lobe There are several methods to bump the engine around to get the distributor to the high spot. They include using the ignition key, the screw driver in the starter trick, and rolling the car forward with the car in gear... HTH

Just be sure the ignition key is off when you do this . . . you may be in for a bit of a "shock" otherwise!

[timemachine]

No one mentioned the point gap! It should be .016 according to factory specs. I have met a couple of people who prefer .018 but I'm not sure why.

Remove the cap and pull off the rotor. Adjust breaker point gap to .016 inch (you can get a flat blade feeler gauge set at any auto parts store for a few dollars) with the rubbing block of the points on the very peak of the cam lobe. (You can put the car in 2nd and give it a little shove to move the distributor cam to the right spot. With an auto trans you'll have to bump the starter until the lobe is in just the right position.)

When I tighten down points, I twist the feeler gauge just the tiniest bit because the foot of the points likes to move outward a hair when you tighten down the screw. Tighten down the screw until it feels pretty snug (the screw is pretty hard steel) but don't get carried away and strip it. After it's tightened down, remove and reinsert the feeler gauge. It should rub lightly against both sides of the points, but if you see any movement in the breaker arm when you remove the gauge the gap is too small and you'll need to start over.

Once the gap looks good, put a couple of drops of 30-weight oil on the felt pad in the center of the distributor shaft, replace the rotor and cap and you're good to go.

Jim

[namba209]

Originally Posted by timemachine No one mentioned the point gap! It should be .016 according to factory specs. I have met a couple of [people who prefer .018 but I'm not sure why. Jim

Maybe that's what the setting is if using a dwell meter instead of a feeler gage. I almost always had to re-adjust the points using a dwell meter after setting the points to the factory specs.

[timemachine]

Originally Posted by namba209 Maybe that's what the setting is if using a dwell meter instead of a feeler gage. I almost always had to re-adjust the points using a dwell meter after setting the points to the factory specs.

I'm not sure about that, you might be right, though the point gap and distributor timing are separate things. The dwell angle better reflects wear and tear, but manual gapping to .016 has always returned good results for me.

[Anonymous D]

Instructions on setting the point gap/dwell, are
in the download dated June 2006, linked here:

Engine

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by timemachine I'm not sure about that, you might be right, though the point gap and distributor timing are separate things. The dwell angle better reflects wear and tear, but manual gapping to .016 has always returned good results for me.

Actually, the point gap DIRECTLY affects timing. The exact moment of "spark" is determined by the instant that the points open, collapsing the magnetic field in the coil that was generated after having the primary circuit of the coil saturated during the degrees of rotation that the points are closed (which is the proper definition of "dwell"), inducing a high voltage in the secondary circuit (the "high tension" core pole in the coil). That high voltage, sufficient to jump across the gap in the spark plug, creates the "spark".

Some folks mistakenly believe that rotating the distributor simply moves the posts that the high tension leads are connected to, and that changes the ignition timing. In fact, rotating the distributor changes the relative position that the points open (or the position that the Pertronix Hall effect pickup is passed by the rod in the cam fitting). The distributor is designed such that the points open at about the same time that the rotor passes by the post inside the cap.

To be clearer, changing the point gap will affect both the dwell, and also the exact position on the cam lobe that the points open. FIRST you set the point gap (or dwell), THEN you set the timing. NEVER the other way around.

HTH

[timemachine]

Good explanation Keith and well said, but Brian just wants to replace his points and condenser.

To your original question Brian, you are not likely to need a dwell/tach if your car just wants new points, which Opels often want. Follow the approach to replacing points and condenser as described above. They are very easy to replace as everyone has said. The Pertronix replacement is very reliable, but like you I still run on mechanical points for some reason and have few issues other than normal maintenance. The condenser screws on the distributor housing and clips onto the points. Replace and gap the points to .016 as described above. If something else comes up, let us know.

Good luck and feel free to ask more questions!

Jim

[jlthunder]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Just be sure the ignition key is off when you do this . . . you may be in for a bit of a "shock" otherwise!

Been there, done that! Learned the hard way when I was adjusting my points back in '80 on my '72 Manta Raylle.

[2_Late_I_Won]

Hey thanks alot guys. Yeah I've heard it was pretty easy to do but wasn't exactly sure how to do it. I also knew I had to have certain gapping but not quite sure what the gap should be. So thanks for the correct gapping.

Also (a little history)I'm just doing a regular tune up on my brothers 71 opel gt. And I figured it would hurt to replace the points and condenser. Because he bought this car a few months ago and it needed a new carb. He saved up and bought a weber carb. So since we have no idea when a good tune up was last done I told him we should go ahead and do a full tune up. Plugs,cap,rotors,wires,points,condensers, and maybe a new coil. We are still getting spark so we might not do the coil yet(They are about $25.00 around here and if we can get away with it we wont buy one yet.)

[namba209]

Here's a suggestion, and I may get some flak but that's o.k.. As long as you're getting spark your coil and condensor are fine, they are both kinda sorta "solid state electronics" as in no moving parts, they'll either work or they won't. What causes the points and spark plugs to "wear" is the continual arcing and sparking that erodes the contact or gap surfaces away. HTH.

[George]

Here's a suggestion, and I may get some flak but that's o.k.. As long as you're getting spark your coil and condensor are fine, they are both kinda sorta "solid state electronics" as in no moving parts We never replaced the condenser or the coil when we did a tune up on the VW 'S at the garage where I worked at. I never have seen one that half way worked

[timemachine]

Ron is pretty much right. A coil is just a transformer, a pair of windings separated by insulating material and sealed in plastic or rubber. It's pretty much like a light bulb in that it works or doesn't. If it breaks down, it has either shorted or opened. You can put in a higher tension coil for a hotter spark but if it's working I wouldn't bother unless it appears damaged from the outside.

Points, plugs and wires do deterorate over time and deserve replacement on a regular basis. You can clean, wire brush and regap plugs a couple of times and get back to where you were, but the coating on plug wires break down and gain resistance. I'd replace wires every 25K or three years. I probably check my points for gap or pitting every few months.

Jim

[2_Late_I_Won]

'71 opel gt I'm getting a really weak spark do you think that would be due to a bad coil? I was going to replace the points and condenser but they appear to have been done not to long ago. Also what voltage should I be getting to the coil?
Thanks Brian

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2_Late_I_Won '71 opel gt I'm getting a really weak spark do you think that would be due to a bad coil? I was going to replace the points and condenser but they appear to have been done not to long ago. Also what voltage should I be getting to the coil? Thanks Brian

You should have ~9V at the coil + (15) terminal with engine running or "key on".

Have you checked plugs and gaps? Check resistance of all plug wires and coil wire. Check rotor and cap for terminal corrosion both inside (rotor contacts) and outside (plug and coil secondary wire terminals).

[2_Late_I_Won]

Thanks tekenaar,

Well my brother and I replaced all wires, plugs, cap and rotor. We set the gap on the plugs to .030 of an inch. So my next guess would be the coil. I don't remember the voltage to the coil but I "jumped" it to the starter that gave me over 12 volts and still got a very week spark. But thanks for the info on how much voltage I should have to the coil. I'll trace that back and make sure I'm getting that much there.

Thanks anymore info would be greatly appreciated.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2_Late_I_Won Thanks tekenaar, Well my brother and I replaced all wires, plugs, cap and rotor. We set the gap on the plugs to .030 of an inch. So my next guess would be the coil. I don't remember the voltage to the coil but I "jumped" it to the starter that gave me over 12 volts and still got a very week spark. But thanks for the info on how much voltage I should have to the coil. I'll trace that back and make sure I'm getting that much there. Thanks anymore info would be greatly appreciated.

Hmmm . . . begs the question, "What do you mean by 'weak' spark?" How are you determining "weak spark?"

Is engine not running right? Which coil do you have, stock or replacement?

[2_Late_I_Won]

Well it's barely visible. And it's not sparking between the gap. It's a white color spark not bright blue. I don't know for a fact but it appears to be a factory one. Looks like baby bottle sort of. With a neg. lead on the top left and a pos. lead on the top right. in between where the coil wire goes.

[tekenaar]

How was the engine running before you replaced all the ignition parts? What kind of secondary (plug) wires did you use?

Coil has a tan top? If so, that's a stock Bosch coil, specifically designed for the Opel 4-cylinder engine . . . believe me, I've never seen one fail in more than 30 years of Opel ownership!

[2_Late_I_Won]

This one has a solid black top on it.

Well my brother bought this a few months ago, not running. It needed a carb. So after viewing this site it was highly recommended to get a weber carb. So my brother saved up the money to do that and I told him we should go ahead and do a "tune up" since it looks like it needs it done anyway[s]. The plugs weren't too bad not a lot of carbon build up and not white so I looks like it had been running pretty well [good]. Not too lean or not too rich. The plug wires had some burn spots at the connecting point (where the wire and the part that goes to the plug go), so it needed wires. The rotor looked decent but not too bad ( it was a few $, so we changed that) and the cap didn't look too awfully bad either but same as the rotor, we changed it out too. I looked at the points and condenser and it looked fairly good still kinda shiny *which isn't saying too much, heck they may need to be changed also (=too)* and the [connecting] points (contacts) looked pretty solid (being that I've never changed those out, I left them alone). So, all in all, I don't know how well it ran but looking at the condition of the plugs it should have a good spark or at least better than what it has now.


I really appreciate your help on this. Thanks again Brian

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2_Late_I_Won This one has a solid black top on it. Well my brother bought this a few months ago, not running. . . . I looked at the points and condenser and it looked fairly good still kinda shiny, *which isn't saying too much, heck they may need to be changed also (=too)* and the [connecting] points (contacts) looked pretty solid (being that I've never changed those out, I left them alone). So, all in all, I don't know how well it ran but looking at the condition of the plugs it should have a good spark or at least better than what it has now. I really appreciate your help on this. Thanks again Brian

Ah so, everything but the points and condensor were changed then, right?!

Sad to say, but the most likely "points ignition" trouble spot in a car that has been sitting for a while is the points! Condensation from moisture in the air tends to form a film over the contacts over time, so that they can no longer quite "close" (go to zero ohms resistance to ground). This means that the coil's secondary never fully "charges" and reduces the coil's output, resulting in the "weak spark" you're seeing.

Do you have a girlfriend? First thing to do at this point to verify this is to borrow one of her emery boards (nail file) and run it between the distributor points to clean them . . . of course, she may not want it back after that, but you now have a new tool for your toolbox . . . a PLUS all the way around!

Test it again after emery boarding it and see what happens . . .

[2_Late_I_Won]

Woooo Whooooo

Yeah I have one of my wife's in my tool box actually LOL thanks I'll try that tonight if it's not raining and get back with you tomorrow.

BTW yeah we didn't change out the points or condenser. Makes sense now that you mention it.

Thanks again hopefully this will work