Ignition,possible easy fix!!!

[Dale .D]

I know anything that's too good to be true usually isn't but you gotta ask.After ordering a sprint from opel unlimited We discussed the usual problem with gts ignition.I've already put the bypass in but I still have a jimmied push button start.The ignition thingy probably needs to be repaired.As I was explaining this he said there's a easy fix to get around that that makes the ignition work normally.He said he's done to many GTs.His instructions are: from the steering column to a white plug ( not black) there's a black wire with a red stripe.splice in there & take it to the right side of the starter.That's it.I haven't heard of this before. Can anyone give some light on this please.Is there dangers with this or has anyone done this succsesfully????

[Dale .D]

OK,so I'm bumping myself.Just to know If I'm going to bugger something up if I try this. Anyone???

[namba209]

That Black/Red wire is the one that goes to the starter solenoid from the ignition switch. If you were wanting to bypass the start side of the switch, that is the wire you would tap in to with a switch to a hot power source to energize the starter solenoid. HTH.

[Dale .D]

So what your telling me is that's what already has been done to my car for the push button start & not a fix for the key start system??

[namba209]

Yep, that's how I did it on Willit? before my engine swap/restoration. Just for your info, the White steering column connector is strictly for the ignition switch and horn, and the Black connector is just for the turn signals and the hi-lo beam switch. OGTS has the capability to repair ignition switches if you're interested, and an "OttoStart" relay, made by "tekenaar" on this site, will keep your switch operating a lot longer once it's fixed.

[Dale .D]

.Thanks namba.Making a lot more sense now. guess we wern't quite communicating.A little wishfull thinking there.my GM dealer installed a unit to take the big juice out of the ignition ( omron) that's when the ignition kicked out. Guess it needed the big current to work.!This auto start thing ,is this an ad on to this system or is it doing the same thing as this omron unit.Thanks for the info

[namba209]

IDK what the "omron" system is, but the "OttoStart" is a relay setup made specifically for the Opel ignition switch by Tekenaar. It's an add-on that takes about 10-15 minutes to install. The problem encountered with the ignition switch is two-fold. First, when the switch is placed in the 'Start' position, the internal contacts supply power to the starter solenoid from the battery, this high current causes some arcing inside the switch which eventually erodes the 'Start' contacts away, very similar to what happens with ignition points.

Secondly, all power except the headlights is routed through the ignition switch in the run position. The problem there, is the contact material isn't all that great and eventually will erode away, same as the starter contacts inside, but more slowly. To solve both problems, on my "Willit?" project, I installed a bank of 7-8 relays, to take the current flow away from the ignition switch, so that now in either the start or run positions about 500 milliamps flows through the switch instead of up-to 30 amps the system is capable of needing. HTH.

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by Dale .D ...my GM dealer installed a unit to take the big juice out of the ignition ( omron) that's when the ignition kicked out. Guess it needed the big current to work.

I don't know what an "omron" is either, but it sounds like a relay that uses the "run" position key setting to energize it which in turn feeds power to the coil etc and takes the load off of the ignition switch contacts. Perhaps he inadvertently disconnected the "start" wire that supplies power to the solenoid to crank the starter, which caused you to need to install a push button starter. I would first make sure that he hasn't mucked up the ignition switch wiring, BEFORE I added an Otto-start. By the way, an Otto-start is simply a normal Bosch relay (such as is used for fog lights) that uses the "start" circuit from the ignition switch to energize it, and then uses fuse-block or battery supplied source to energize the solenoid. Otto just packages the relay with the required wiring to make it easier to install. I have one and it looks well made, FWIW.

[Nathan Acree]

FWIW,

Omron is a very common brand of relay.

-Nathan Acree
Albuquerque New Mexico

[Dale .D]

Originally Posted by kwilford I don't know what an "omron" is either, but it sounds like a relay that uses the "run" position key setting to energize it which in turn feeds power to the coil etc and takes the load off of the ignition switch contacts. Perhaps he inadvertently disconnected the "start" wire that supplies power to the solenoid to crank the starter, which caused you to need to install a push button starter. I would first make sure that he hasn't mucked up the ignition switch wiring, BEFORE I added an Otto-start. By the way, an Otto-start is simply a normal Bosch relay (such as is used for fog lights) that uses the "start" circuit from the ignition switch to energize it, and then uses fuse-block or battery supplied source to energize the solenoid. Otto just packages the relay with the required wiring to make it easier to install. I have one and it looks well made, FWIW.

So as I understand it now the omron relay is doing what the otto start unit would do.I was told from the GM dealer when they installed the Omron relay the car started fine from the key but later didn't when I came in to get the car so it was working fine!!Another twist occasionally when I'm starting the car by the push button it kind of misses like the solenoids arcing or something.Somehow I think this is all related.I'm not very electrically inclined as you can tell ..Have to wait until my sprint in so I can start it to take a closer look at this issue.All help is greatly appreciated.Sure wish there was someone around up here I could go to.

[opelwasp]

Originally Posted by Nathan Acree FWIW, Omron is a very common brand of relay. -Nathan Acree Albuquerque New Mexico

Switch the letters around...

mOron relay

[GTJIM]

Opel kept using the same ignition switch for years and years - my 1991 Opel Senator had the same problems - Fixed with a relay.
Why Opel did not rectify this 'feature' eludes me ......

[namba209]

It's the "bean counters" Jim. Figure their cost for a relay, the extra wiring, and the time to do it, over 300K units and it adds up to a bunch of bucks. One of the reasons Ford didn't fix the fuel tank problem years ago on one of their models. It would cost more to do the retrofit than pay out a couple of settlements, if they went to court.

[newman27]

Originally Posted by Dale .D ...Have to wait until my sprint in so I can start it to take a closer look at this issue.All help is greatly appreciated.Sure wish there was someone around up here I could go to.

If your car isn't running / needed at the moment, now might be a good time to send your ignition off to OGTS for a rebuild. That's what I am using and it is working great so far.

Matt

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by newman27 If your car isn't running / needed at the moment, now might be a good time to send your ignition off to OGTS for a rebuild. That's what I am using and it is working great so far. Matt

. . . it is now I'm sure, but do you have some sort of relay installed in the original 'start' wiring which removes the high amperage from the "Start" contacts?!! If not, you'll have this problem again in the future . . . who knows how long!

[Dale .D]

This is something I'm still not clear on.If I have that omron relay in to take the large currant out of the ignition do I still need the autostart unit to do something else?Once I get the sprint back & get everything back together & running.I'll probably do the ignition thing & send it down to gil.

[jeff denton]

Dale, I think you're just a little confused as to what a relay is and what it's for. We go through this every now and then, there are many posts about it!
It is not complicated. A relay is simply an electromagnet that is energized by a remote switch (such as the "start" contacts in your ignition switch).
This electromagnet requires only a teensy bit of current fed to it from the remote switch to energize, at which time its magnetic field pulls a big switch closed (or open, or both, depending on the configuration of the switch). Now this big switch is designed to handle LOTS of current, and it is getting the hard work (in your case, supplying heavy current to the starter solenoid) done.
It is doing the hard work by taking orders from the switch that is taking orders from you, in other words.
Just get the Otto Start. It is designed to install simply without taking a course in advanced electrical theory. Otto did all the thinking for you, has it designed to work by simply following the instructions. The relay is as simple and common as they get.
Hope this helps!
Also I think we confuse ourselves and each other when we use terms like "ignition". Ignition is the system that ignites a mixture of fuel and air in each cylinder at an exact moment. That little hole in the dash that you stick a key in is a switch, in fact numerous switches. It is referred to as the "ignition switch" but it is also used to switch on accessories and to momentarily switch on a starter motor. So it is really a multi-function switch. Hope this helps, too, sometimes just using the right words to describe a part we're studying helps keep it all on track.

[Nathan Acree]

You shouldn't, the purpose of the Ottostart is to do just that, take the large current switching duty away from the switch and let the relay handle the large current load- Assuming your setup is hooked up correctly.

-Nathan Acree
Albuquerque New Mexico

[Dale .D]

Thanks for being so patient to the electrically challenged like myself

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Dale .D This is something I'm still not clear on.If I have that omron relay in to take the large currant out of the ignition do I still need the autostart unit to do something else?Once I get the sprint back & get everything back together & running.I'll probably do the ignition thing & send it down to gil.

. . . if that is indeed what the Omron does, I wonder how that "large raisin" got in there in the first place!

[namba209]

Originally Posted by Dale .D This is something I'm still not clear on.If I have that omron relay in to take the large currant out of the ignition do I still need the autostart unit to do something else?Once I get the sprint back & get everything back together & running.I'll probably do the ignition thing & send it down to gil.

To find out if you would still need the "Otto Start" system, you'd have to trace out the wires at the "omron" relay by pin number, presuming all relays are numbered the same. Depending on which way they wired the relay, it could be wired either to the start side of the ignition switch or the run/accessory side, and where the wires go to would help too, as well as the color codes on the wires. Once that is known, then an educated guess could be made to determine if you still needed the Otto Start setup.

[jeff denton]

It's what we're here for, Dale. We like to help. And that is what Otto does best in this situation which is very common to our cars. So he made it incredibly simple for you. He even used components that are on the shelf at any NAPA store. He put it all together in one package containing all the parts and the clear instructions on how to do it.
Whatever this Omrun stuff is, I don't know, that's not a term I'm familiar with after all these years of working on equipment that has up to hundreds of simple relays. Yeah, the same simple relay that Otto Start uses. To put the Omrun thing in your car might make it more complicated than I might presently understand, when you could have used the Otto Start which we all understand or are in the process of learning.
In other words, as far as I'm concerned, the answer to your problem is very simple. I recommend you Keep It Simple! It's the KISS theory, I leave off the last S when explaining it so as not to offend.

[Anonymous D]

Article on how to install a common $6 Radio Shack relay and a few wires, to protect Opel GT ignition switch, is here:

Opel GT Ignition Tips

Article linking to it, on common GT problems and fixes:

GT "Things to Know"

Article on disassembly and rebuild of the internal components of the Opel GT steering column, is in the April 2006 OMC Blitz.

[tekenaar]

Hmmm, I thought I'd transferred my 'OttoStart' schematic from 'classicopels' on Yahoo! to this site when I signed up here . . . I 'Search'ed, couldn't find it here.

Since this has never been or meant to be a 'secret' on my part, here it is . . . again:




. . . and the installation instructions for both 'B' and 'A' versions, originally posted in "Opel Tips & Tricks" Forum in the "OttoStart Installation Instructions." thread.

[jeff denton]

A little tip I'd like to offer is to use the "Bosch" name brand relay as specified by Otto, I would not trust the "radio crap" version. Kenworth owners have known this since the early 80's, when the new trucks went to "EVERYTHING controlled by a relay" electrical system.
The Blitz schematic calls for 18 gauge wires in the start circuit, that seems awful light, I'd go 14.