Running on 3 cyclinders instead of 4

[gt crazy]

My ignition switch is worn and somehow is making the front cylinder not get connection from the petronix. Weird right? When I jiggle the key once in a blue moon the front cylinder will fire right. But somehow all the other cyclinders fire perfectly. So me and my dad are gonna go take the spare ones off the junk opels and see if one of those has any better luck. If not were gonna be calling OGTS to have them rebuild it. And hopefully that is the only reason why the cyclinder isnt firing all the time.

P.S. I was always kinda curious why it was hard to keep up with traffic taking off from a light. I always thought opels were that slow at accelerating i was having to open the secondary to make sure i didn't fall behind. Kinda frusterating when you see a bus FULL of kids be able to go faster than me. I can't wait to see how she is gonna be with all 4 cyclinders running

[markandson]

Originally Posted by gt crazy My ignition switch is worn and somehow is making the front cylinder not get connection from the petronix.

Sorry for this comment, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[jlthunder]

I agree with Jeff. I'd trace it from the plugs back to the distributor, or just do a tune up with a new cap, rotor, wires and plugs. You can also put the old points and condenser back in to eliminate the pertronix unit as a source of the problem.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by jlthunder I agree with Jeff. I'd trace it from the plugs back to the distributer, or just do a tune up with a new cap, rotor, wires and plugs. You can also put the old points and condenser back in to eliminate the petronix unit as a source of the problem.

Hmmm . . . if the Pertronix is firing 3 plugs, then it's NOT the source of the problem! The ONLY way this can occur in the Pertronix unit is by removing one of the four trigger magnets from the circular plastic unit that slips over the disti points cam!

I'd look at the spark plug wire and connections on the failing cylinder . . . and replace the plug!

[jlthunder]

I agree, but I wanted to give him all of the potential options.

[Nathan Acree]

Actually could be ignition switch related-

Power to the coil is provided through the ignition switch- and remember, coil only gets full 12V in the start position. If ignition switch is flakey could cause missing/rough running because of coil voltage problems.

Now this would not cause a specific cylinder to miss, but maybe that is not what is happening.

I recommend getting a coil that can handle full voltage and replacing the clear resitor wire with a standard wire.

-Nathan Acree
Albuquerque New Mexico

[jvandyke]

At the risk of hijacking a thread:
I had/have Crane Cams XR700 and reverted to points to trouble shoot. PO had installed full 12v to coil instead of resistor wire. I undid the full 12v. and redid resistor wire when I put points in. I've read the resistor wire was used to help points last longer. Is there a benefit/negative to running the 12v instead of the resistor wire when points are not in play? Or does that depend on what coil is in play?
My coil is a Bosch and it's red and car was driven a long time with the XR700 and full 12v., now several hundred miles on points and resisted (9 or so volts I think).
Does the coil care about this voltage, or is it just to make points last longer?

[namba209]

Originally Posted by jvandyke At the risk of hijacking a thread: Does the coil care about this voltage, or is it just to make points last longer?

I have no idea what the color of the coil indicates, but it is important to the input voltage. The coil, being a transformer, uses the input voltage to generate a much higher voltage to fire the plugs. The points are nothing more that a switch to ground the primary winding circuit in the coil. The more voltage across the points, the greater arcing and sparking occurs which will erode the points faster. With more input voltage than the coil is designed for, a greater amount of heat is generated which is detrimental to the coil. Now, with all that being said, most coils were designed for use on the old 6 volt systems. When cars were switched to 12 volts, a method of resisting the voltage was used, either an internal resistor or external ballast resistor was used. Some aftermarket coils are designed to use full system voltage, or use the resisted original wiring. You have to use the manufacturer's directions to be sure.

[markandson]

The arcing across the points is really due to the amps that are being switched, not so much the voltage, until you get into such high voltages that a spark begins to jump the gap, but even then with little amp draw from the load side the spark will not do too much damage to the point surface. The voltage to the coil is directly related to the coil design, too much and you will cook the coil in no time, too little and the secondary to the plugs will not give you the voltage to properly fire the plugs. You have to find the specs on the coil that you have in order to really know what to do.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Nathan Acree Actually could be ignition switch related- Power to the coil is provided through the ignition switch- and remember, coil only gets full 12V in the start position. If ignition switch is flakey could cause missing/rough running because of coil voltage problems. Now this would not cause a specific cylinder to miss, but maybe that is not what is happening. I recommend getting a coil that can handle full voltage and replacing the clear resitor wire with a standard wire. -Nathan Acree Albuquerque New Mexico

I believe there may be a slight misunderstanding about applied ignition coil voltage sources here. Allow me to expand for a moment . . .

First, there are two types of ignition coils, external (E-) and internal (I-) resistor. Their secondary voltages are essentially created by a step-up transformer, which has a low number of windings in the primary (+12V) and a very high number of windings in the secondary to fire the plugs. Let's use 12KV as our designed secondary firing voltage. This would appear to require a windings ratio of 1000:1 . . . but let's see what actually happens in both types of coils.

The "full voltage" coil Nathan mentioned is an I-coil and you indeed need to apply the "full 12V" directly to its + post . . . but that's only half the story. The internal resistor is connected between the I-coil + post and the coil's primary winding. As a result, the coil primary now only "sees" 9V which is transformed at a "1000:1" to 9KV . . . not our design goal!!

To achieve the desired 12KV at the secondary of the I-coil, the winding ratio must be increased by 33% (12/9) to 1333:1. To achieve the same 12KV secondary "running" voltage, the E-coil must use this same winding ratio. The only difference is the location of the resistive element, externally!

There is an added benefit to locating the resistor externally . . . you can now bypass the resistor to "boost" the spark to 16KV during engine starting! That's why the Opel and most other "points" ignition systems were designed this way . . .

BTW, let me dispel somewhat of an apparent myth here . . . you really gain nothing by exchanging your stock Bosch "tan top" coil (E-coil) for an aftermarket Bosch "Blue" coil (I-coil) as their winding ratios are identical! Not only do you lose the "Start boost" feature of the stock coil, but you'll also only get ~9KV secondary running voltage with the "Blue" coil if you should leave your stock coil wiring intact . . . resistance wire, remember!

[markandson]

Otto,
My knowledge of coil design is limited, but based on your last post I have a question. Isn't there a coil designed for a 12v input on the primary with no resistor in the line, either external or internal, seems to me that this item should be available. Secondly, why are there so many different coil types available, if the design is so simple, and you only need a certain secondary voltage to fire the plugs. Is it somewhat due to the different "charge times" that occur between 4,6, and 8 cyl. engines? The other thing is, you can avoid this whole mess if you use a CD ignition system, which just spikes the primary with a voltage shot from a capacitor, but the ignition module itself runs off of 12v (no resistor at all). Just a bunch of questions and info that I have floating around in my head for some time, like maybe 40 years

[69whitegt]

Check the spark plug first. Then if you have a volt meter, Ohm out that plug wire to see if it is any good. That should fix your problem.

[namba209]

Jeff, with the flow of electrons traveling at an acknowledged 186,000 miles per second, there's really no build up time difference between a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder coil. You could actually use a 6 volt coil from the early years to use on any car. They are basically the same, as long as you use a ballast resistor, like GM and Chrysler have on their 12 volt systems. For some reason, the Ford engineers decided to use an internal resistor and they didn't need the added voltage during the starting sequence, but GM and Chrysler did. Go figure. I'm almost sure there are after market "High Performance" coils that don't use the ballast resistors, and probably have secondary windings or possibly primary windings that won't cause overheating. You're right though, A CD system or even a magnetic pickup system would be better and longer lasting.

[gt crazy]

then why would it work sometimes and sometimes it dont? i just got a tune up for it.

what kind of coil would i need with a petronix? i have a extra one that is 12v electronic ignition. would that work?

[namba209]

I seriously don't think your ignition switch is causing the problem. If it was or is, then other circuits would also be affected, because that position on the switch also powers everything except the starter, dome light, clock and key buzzer. I think, if everything else checks out, you could have a loose screw on the condensor on the side of the distributor, or a condensor going bad. To be on the safe side, check the connections of the "transparent" coil power wire at the fuse block and at the coil. Also the connections from the coil to the points. What you have is an intermittant connection that is totally random and is causing a misfire. If you still think it is only screwing up #1 plug, then I would check the underside of the cap, looking for a carbon track from #1 position to another plug position. Or even replace the cap itself.

[jeff denton]

You could always hotwire the coil and go for a drive and see if the problems persists. I bet it will.
Don't forget to replace the coil and plug wires when doing a major tune-up. They get overlooked a lot, somehow it's easy to assume they are okay. Quality pays here, and there are only five short wires.
Like Ron says, just replace the cap. And the rotor. Otherwise it wasn't really a tune-up, was it?

[tomcat]

I had a gt back in 2005 which i drove to the texas opel meet. i won the TLC award for it as it only qualified as a 3 cylinder ha. anyway while we took a look at it we attempted to swicth plugs and wires around and even still we could remove the plug wire while it was runnig from the first cylinder and it just kept running. I had hoped to fix this problem eventually but quite suddenly the day after the meet leaving work someone decided to take a left turn without yelding. this totaled the gt. never did find out what was wrong with it. seems to me it had nothing to do with the wiring. could it be the engine, possibly the lifters???

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by tomcat I had a gt back in 2005 which i drove to the texas opel meet. i won the TLC award for it as it only qualified as a 3 cylinder ha. anyway while we took a look at it we attempted to swicth plugs and wires around and even still we could remove the plug wire while it was runnig from the first cylinder and it just kept running. I had hoped to fix this problem eventually but quite suddenly the day after the meet leaving work someone decided to take a left turn without yelding. this totaled the gt. never did find out what was wrong with it. seems to me it had nothing to do with the wiring. could it be the engine, possibly the lifters???

. . . not as likely the lifters, per se, as a/some worn/rounded cam lobe(s)! Rodney can tell you all about this! . . . #4 cylinder intake lobe in his case . . .

[yellaopelgt]

Its electrical......do yourself an easy test and wait till dark, pull off the spark plug wire and check and see how "hot" the arc looks. Should be white hot. Jiggle the ignition around and see if that does anything to it as well. (I doubt it, but you never know.....You might just start this thing up in the dark and see it arcing all over the place right off the bat!! Pertronics are very reliable so I don't think thats your problem...could just be a bad wire, pull the boot back and see if you have a good connection as well. If the cylinder hits on occasion, I doubt its an engine problem. Usually cam and lifters means broke is broke!!! JMTCW
Joe

[gt crazy]

OK! Now im only firing on 2 cyclinders! I have new plugs, temp fixed the ignition switch, and fixed the amp bouncing around. and now im running on 2 cylinders. Maybe this is caused because of the petronix

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by gt crazy Originally Posted by tekenaar Hmmm . . . if the Pertronix is firing 3 plugs, then it's NOT the source of the problem! The ONLY way this can occur in the Pertronix unit is by removing one of the four trigger magnets from the circular plastic unit that slips over the disti points cam! I'd look at the spark plug wire and connections on the failing cylinder . . . and replace the plug! OK! Now im only firing on 2 cyclinders! I have new plugs, temp fixed the ignition switch, and fixed the amp bouncing around. and now im running on 2 cylinders. Maybe this is caused because of the pertronix

Again, hmmm . . . what about that did you not understand . . .

You changed things other than the Pertronics and made the problem worse . . . ergo, one of the things you changed is the source of the new problem . . . and maybe the original too?! Did you change plug wires in addition to the plugs? Is the firing order still 1-3-4-2 CW or is it 1-2-4-3 now, i.e. swapped 2 and 3 plug wires because you thought disti rotation was CCW!!?

[gt crazy]

read the thread.... i said i replaced the spark plug wires... the distributor cap looks good. tony helped me adjust my coil setting cuz i had a extra unneeded resistor on it. i put a 69 voltage regulator on it. made sure all my connections are good on my altenator and voltage regulator. the only thing we did not do yet was put a new coil and yank out the distributor. which we will be putting a new coil on it today and yanking the distributor sometime this week

[namba209]

Originally Posted by gt crazy and yanking the distributor sometime this week

Why? The distributor isn't your problem if you're firing even one plug. It's strictly a mechanism that rotates the points cam to trigger the Pertronix, or open and close the points. I would suggest replacing the cap and rotor if you haven't done that yet. Use the K.I.S.S. method and change the least expensive items first. Don't tear things out if they don't cause the problem.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by gt crazy Originally Posted by tekenaar Originally Posted by gt crazy OK! Now im only firing on 2 cyclinders! I have new plugs, temp fixed the ignition switch, and fixed the amp bouncing around. and now im running on 2 cylinders. Maybe this is caused because of the petronix Did you change plug wires in addition to the plugs? Is the firing order still 1-3-4-2 CW or is it 1-2-4-3 now, i.e. swapped 2 and 3 plug wires because you thought disti rotation was CCW!!? read the thread.... i said i replaced the spark plug wires... the distrubtor cap looks good. . . .

. . . uh, so where exactly did you say you replaced the plug wires?

I asked you if you changed the plug wires so you would check the firing order at the distributor . . . swapping #2 and #3 plug wires will cause exactly the problem!!! you described, as stated in that post . . . if you'd read a bit further on . . . so, did you check it?

[gt crazy]

yes i meant to say i got new plug wires. my fingers type faster than i can think.

But I dont know which cylinders are which. Could you make a picture or upload a picture on the cylinder numbers. and firing order.

BUT it aint that the cylinders wont fire its that the plugs and sparking right.