Electronic Ignition Question

[pecje]

Originally Posted by Dennis Texas Hot Spark has given me the following email, The red ignition module requires a coil with at least 1.5 Ohms primary resistance. We'll send a replacement 3BOS4U1 ignition kit (red). In addition to this problem the first two modules I bought were blue plastic cased the last two I bought were red. I'll try it and see let ya guys know the outcome.

Bought the red cased ignition kit 3BOS4U1 from Hot Spark myself a few weeks ago. The installation took me 10 mins. I also set the timing correct with a stroboscobic light. The car runs like it has never run before in years. Absolutely without problems . My car is equipped with the original blue Bosch coil.

Patrick

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by pecje Bought the red cased ignition kit 3BOS4U1 from Hot Spark myself a few weeks ago. The installation took me 10 mins. I also set the timing correct with a stroboscobic light. The car runs like it has never run before in years. Absolutely without problems . My car is equipped with the original blue Bosch coil. Patrick

. . . hope you're not saying that Bosch "blue coil" was "stock," however, as all Opel "stock" coils used during those years, up to '75, were "external resistance" types and the "blue coil" is/was an "aftermarket/replacement" internal-resisitance coil type . . .

[pecje]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . hope you're not saying that Bosch "blue coil" was "stock," however, as all Opel "stock" coils used during those years, up to '75, were "external resistance" types and the "blue coil" is/was an "aftermarket/replacement" internal-resisitance coil type . . .

As far as I know the coil is still the original one. Could it be that blue Bosch coils were stock on Dutch/European cars?
For a picture of my coil see:
Under the hood 2 - Opel Photo Gallery

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by jeff denton I wonder if the problem starts with an inability to understand the coil information just given. Undoubtedly compounded by a sense of frugality, you know, "the old coil worked, why replace it". I don't think any of us are actual rocket scientists, and few understand basic electical theory, but there are some actual mechanics in the crowd. These ignition systems need to come complete with the coil required and a very detailed instruction sheet. Dennis, I think your company could handle that. How about put together an ignition kit for our Opel enthusiasts? Surely within minutes it would be known that yours is the one to buy, period. All the products I've bought from OGTS were excellent, and the instructions supplied were incredibly thorough and even illustrated! Not to mention the friendly advice just a phone call away. Warning us what coil not to use was only half helpful. Why don't they spell out exactly which one they need us to use with their product, by brand name and part number?

. . . Jeff, posted this ages ago specifically for the electric/electronically challenged among us . . .

Originally Posted by tekenaar - 01/18/2005 Simplest installation of electronically triggered ignition in a GT is to purchase and use Pertronix/Hot-Spark trigger and stock coil. Here's how: 1. Remove cap, rotor, points and condenser with green wire from distributor and disconnect green "condenser/points" wire from coil. Leave everything else connected as-is. 2. Install Pertronix/Hot-Spark trigger amp module where points were, do not tighten mounting screws yet. 3. Run red and black module wires out "points wire" hole in side of distributor and install grommet in "points wire" hole, leaving a bit of slack on both wires inside of distributor. 4. Push black plastic magnet unit onto distributor shaft and seat over points cam. 5. Adjust trigger amp module to magnet unit clearance using clear plastic gauge that is provided and tighten trigger module screws. 6. Replace rotor and cap . . . you're now done with the distributor. 7. Connect black Pertronix/Hot-Spark wire to coil contact from which you removed the green points wire. 8. Cut an 18" length of 16/18 gauge red wire, strip both ends ~1/4" and crimp on a 1/4" female spade connector on one end. 9. Locate clear (resistance) wire at front of fuse #3 (from passenger side) of the fuse box and attach red wire terminal on an extra lug there. This is your switched 12V (turns on with ignition key) source for powering Pertronix/Hot-Spark. 10. Run the other end of the red wire through the firewall at the windshield washer foot pump hose grommet. 11. Crimp 1/4" male spade connector to red wire now underhood and connect to matching Pertronix/Hot-Spark red wire female spade terminal. 12. To paraphrase our own SouthWest Airlines: "You're now free to move about the country!"

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by pecje As far as I know the coil is still the original one. Could it be that blue Bosch coils were stock on Dutch/European cars? For a picture of my coil see: Under the hood 2 - Opel Photo Gallery

Not possible . . . check for two wires with a common female-spade connector at the + side of your coil - one black/red, one clear. The clear wire is a 1.8Ω resistance "RUN" wire, which powers the coil with ~9V at all times except while starting the engine . . . 12V from black/red wire.

Opel would NOT intentionally connect an internal resistance coil, like the Bosch "blue coil", to an "external resistance" power wire, further dropping the start voltage to ~9V and the actual "run" voltage to only ~6V! . . . totally defeating their original "ignition voltage boost during start" design, as already stated in a previous post here.

. . . and, looking at your picture, can't really tell if there are two wires at the coil's + terminal, but the female-spade connector at one of the connections (tach/e-trigger?) is definitely NOT original! . . . that side typically had a round "bullet" type connector and green wire(s).

[pecje]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Not possible . . . check for two wires with a common female-spade connector at the + side of your coil - one black/red, one clear. . . . and, looking at your picture, can't really tell if there are two wires at the coil's + terminal, but the female-spade connector at one of the connections (tach/e-trigger?) is definitely NOT original! . . . that side typically had a round "bullet" type connector and green wire(s).

Before installing the Hot Spark ignition there were 3 wires connected to the coil, all coming from the original electrical cable:
at the 12V (+/15) side a black one and a clear one (with the Hot Spark ignition also a red one).
and at the "-" side a green one and a black one from the H-S.
Looking at the wrapping of the cables, all authentic.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by pecje Originally Posted by tekenaar Not possible . . . check for two wires with a common female-spade connector at the + side of your coil - one black/red, one clear. The clear wire is a 1.8Ω resistance "RUN" wire, which powers the coil with ~9V at all times except while starting the engine . . . 12V from black/red wire. Opel would NOT intentionally connect an internal resistance coil, like the Bosch "blue coil", to an "external resistance" power wire, further dropping the start voltage to ~9V and the actual "run" voltage to only ~6V! . . . totally defeating their original "ignition voltage boost during start" design, as already stated in a previous post here. . . . . Before installing the Hot Spark ignition there were 3 wires connected to the coil, all coming from the original electrical cable: at the 12V (+/15) side a black one and a clear one (with the Hot Spark ignition also a red one). and at the "-" side a green one and a black one from the H-S. Looking at the wrapping of the cables, all authentic.

. . . which is exactly what I said! . . . the way it's connected now is: authentic, original wiring attached to a non-stock, internal resistance coil with incorrect voltage (+9V) thus applied to both your Hot Spark and blue coil + terminal!

Both e-trigger and blue coil + connection only have a full +12V applied during starting! During "RUN" condition, there is only +9V applied by the resistance wire to the e-trigger and blue coil + terminal!

So, because blue coil is internal resistor type, the coil actually only sees +9V during "Start" and ~+6V during "RUN" . . . i.e. no ignition voltage boost at "Start", only 67% (+9V) of the designed "Run" voltage at the + terminal (only 50% (+6V) used at the coil) and coil being triggered by e-trigger running at 75% (+9V) of the designed voltage level! . . . none of these are GOOD!

[pecje]

Originally Posted by tekenaar So, because blue coil is internal resistor type, the coil actually only sees +9V during "Start" and ~+6V during "RUN" . . . i.e. no ignition voltage boost at "Start", only 67% (+9V) of the designed "Run" voltage at the + terminal (only 50% (+6V) used at the coil) and coil being triggered by e-trigger running at 75% (+9V) of the designed voltage level! . . . none of these are GOOD!

Now I'm completely confused .
I read this thread a few times but I can't figure out how to connect my blue coil and H-S ignition. If I understand well mine is hooked up wrong.
Sorry that I don't understand, but I'm not that technical (especially electronics) and since English is not my native language...
Please tekenaar help me out before I blow up my H-S and coil.

Patrick

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by pecje Please tekenaar help me out before I blow up my H-S and coil.

Patrick als de voltage lager is dan het moet zijn zal je de H-S en bobine niet opblazen. Uit de uitleg van Otto heb ik dit begrepen:
Als je een Blauwe Bosch bobine hebt, dan heeft deze een extra inwendige weerstand, omdat de originele draden uit de kabelboom zijn gebruikt krijgt jou bobine en ontstekings module, door de weerstands draad [de draad met doorzichtige isolatie] nu minder spanning, niet dat dit zo heel erg is, maar je vonk is hier door ook minder, het beste zou zijn als je een geschakelde [dus door de contact slot geschakelde] 12 VDC naar de bobine en ontstekings module brengt, en de ander twee draden los haalt en aftape met isolatietape zodat ze geen sluiting kunnen maken, verdere draden zijn dan goed.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U Originally Posted by pecje Originally Posted by tekenaar . . .Both e-trigger and blue coil + connection only have a full +12V applied during starting! During "RUN" condition, there is only +9V applied by the resistance wire to the e-trigger and blue coil + terminal! So, because blue coil is internal resistor type, the coil actually only sees +9V during "Start" and ~+6V during "RUN" . . . i.e. no ignition voltage boost at "Start", only 67% (+9V) of the designed "Run" voltage at the + terminal (only 50% (+6V) used at the coil) and coil being triggered by e-trigger running at 75% (+9V) of the designed voltage level! . . . none of these are GOOD! Now I'm completely confused . I read this thread a few times but I can't figure out how to connect my blue coil and H-S ignition. If I understand well mine is hooked up wrong. Sorry that I don't understand, but I'm not that technical (especially electronics) and since English is not my native language... Please tekenaar help me out before I blow up my H-S and coil. Patrick Otto misschien is het beter om het in het Nederlands te verwoorden Patrick als de voltage lager is dan het moet zijn zal je de H-S en bobine niet opblazen, eigenlijk moet je, als ik Otto goed verstaan heb, de weerstand van de bobine meten om te zien als het een extra inwendige weerstand heeft, zo ja dan moet je de draad met de doorzichtige isolatie overbruggen, omdat deze draad ook al een weerstand is die de 12 VDC terug brengt naar 9 VDC, en als in de bobine ook een weerstand is, breng je de spanning verder terug naar 6 VDC. Dit is wat ik uit het verhaal van Otto begrepen heb

Goedzo, Erick, dat is het precies . . . well done, Erick, that's it exactly . . . Patrick, maybe this will help a bit more . . . misschien zal dit nog wel een beetje meer helpen . . .



First column is stock coil, or any non-resistor coil - i.e. Bosch red coil, correctly connected and triggered by points or correctly wired e-trigger with all relevant voltages listed . . .

Second column is Bosch blue coil, or any internal resistance coil, correctly connected and triggered by points or correctly wired e-trigger with all relevant voltages listed . . . note that the coil does not get a voltage boost during 'start'!

Third column is commonly, but incorrectly, wired Bosch blue coil and incorrectly wired e-trigger . . . e-trigger is powered by only +9V (75% design voltage) during 'key on/run' condition and ignition is further hampered by coil's +6V (50%) actual operating voltage, regardless of trigger method used!

This is what I meant by, " . . . none of these are good!"

. . . alles nu verstaan? . . . everything now understood?

[newman27]

So, if the electronic ignition module begins to "fail" causing the car to misfire, does that also mean the mechanical fuel pump driven off the distributor drive shaft would also begin to fail to pump enough fuel to the carb? In other words, is it possible that failure of the ignition module can also lead to fuel starvation as a secondary problem? It seems logical but not sure...maybe a stupid question . I'm just trying to build a complete picture here of the sequence of events.

[oldopelguy]

Originally Posted by newman27 So, if the electronic ignition module begins to "fail" causing the car to misfire, does that also mean the mechanical fuel pump driven off the distributor drive shaft would also begin to fail to pump enough fuel to the carb?

There is absolutely no correlation between the electronics within the module failing an the mechanical actuation of the fuel pump. The mechanical portion of the distributor is gear driven from the crankshaft and will continue to rotate as long as the engine is turning and the gear hasn't failed, there are no electronics involved. Further, the electronic ignition module doesn't even touch the rotating part of the distributor.

Above and beyond all that, the engine runs off a small puddle of fuel inside the carb being drawn in by engine vacuum through a metered hole. Basically a controlled leak from a small cup. That cup holds enough fuel for the engine to run for several seconds and it's level is replenished by the fuel pump. A noticable failure of the ignition module would be on the order of individual engine revolutions, a very small portion of a second, by comparison.

[pecje]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . alles nu verstaan? . . . everything now understood?

Thanks for the info Otto . Tomorrow I'll check the wiring and voltages. However before you posted this excellent diagram I measured the voltage of the coil with the engine running: between "15" and ground I measured 13V ; between "-" and ground I measured 11.5V. Does this tell you anything already?

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by pecje Thanks for the info Otto . Tomorrow I'll check the wiring and voltages. However before you posted this excellent diagram I measured the voltage of the coil with the engine running: between "15" and ground I measured 13V ; between "-" and ground I measured 11.5V. Does this tell you anything already?

Coil "-" connection is the coils trigger side, which switches the coil's ground connection on and off so it can "charge" when "on" and "discharge" (fire the plugs) when "off". The voltage you measured there is an "average-on/off" voltage and is used to measure "dwell" angle, the ratio of coil on/off time which determines the coil's actual output voltage based on its winding ratio.

BTW . . . automotive electrical voltage is typically referred to as 12V, even though, when the engine is running, it should measure 13.3-13.8V on older cars and up to ~14.6V or so on newer cars with higher amp, electronically (rather than electro-mechanically) regulated alternators.

Oh yes, the actual voltage used to charge the coil cannot be measured externally on "internal resistance" coils because the "resistor" is physically connected between the coil's + post and the primary winding of the coil . . . actually a "step-up" transformer.

[newman27]

Originally Posted by oldopelguy ...That cup holds enough fuel for the engine to run for several seconds and it's level is replenished by the fuel pump. A noticable failure of the ignition module would be on the order of individual engine revolutions, a very small portion of a second, by comparison.

Makes sense - thanks!

[pecje]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Second row is Bosch blue coil, or any internal resistance coil, correctly connected and triggered by points or correctly wired e-trigger with all relevant voltages listed . . . note that the coil does not get a voltage boost during 'start'!

Connected everything as described in the second row for my H-S e-trigger and blue Bosch coil. Took the car for a spin yesterday. The engine purrs like a kitten at 850 revs/min and growls like a lion when stepping on the throttle. Thanks OTTO ! (and Erick for the translation) Another satisfied customer of OpelGT.com !

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by pecje Connected everything as described in the second row for my H-S e-trigger and blue Bosch coil. Took the car for a spin yesterday. The engine purrs like a kitten at 850 revs/min and growls like a lion when stepping on the throttle. Thanks OTTO ! (and Erick for the translation) Another satisfied customer of OpelGT.com !

Graag gedaan, you are welcome

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U Originally Posted by pecje Connected everything as described in the second row for my H-S e-trigger and blue Bosch coil. Took the car for a spin yesterday. The engine purrs like a kitten at 850 revs/min and growls like a lion when stepping on the throttle. Thanks OTTO ! (and Erick for the translation) Another satisfied customer of OpelGT.com ! Graag gedaan, you are welcome

Het zelfde van mij . . . same here!

I went back and added the coil secondary ignition voltages (bobine hoge spanning) which fires the plugs. This directly shows how much a few volts more or less at the coil primary + connection affect the secondary high voltage that fires the plugs!

The lower two illustrations in the third column, the way you had it connected originally, Patrick, show that you were not only firing your plugs with only 2/3 (8KV) the designed spark output of the coil (12KV), but were also triggering the coil with only 3/4 (+9V) of the designed e-trigger voltage (+12V)!

Anyway, glad it helped make things a little clearer for you, Patrick, and now Erick can fully explain it to anyone there . . . and in Dutch!

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by tekenaar .......and now Erick can fully explain it to anyone there . . . and in Dutch!

right, blame it on me

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U Originally Posted by tekenaar .......and now Erick can fully explain it to anyone there . . . and in Dutch! right, blame it on me

. . . not blaming you, Erick, just "passing the buck!"

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U Originally Posted by tekenaar .......Erick can fully explain it to anyone there . . . and in Dutch! right, blame it on me . . . not blaming you, Erick, just "passing the buck!"

I know Otto, just teasing

[Dennis Texas]

ok folks a follow up: I received my new replacement ignition kit from hot spark today, part no. 3BOS4U1. Took me about 5 minutes - installed, set timing, done.

This newer replacement I received was wonderful. It stands a bit taller, so I could not use the original dust cover that goes inside under the rotor. No gap to set, it mounts rigid on the pin out of distributor with one screw, exactly like the original points did. You just put it in and, according to hot spark, the resistive wire makes no difference, so I left mine in.

I read the post about the resistive wire and voltages and all that, but this is using the original set up and with resistive wire, module works just fine as far as the 12 volts at the distributor coil - well the car ran fine with the points and all this does is eliminate them - so as long as it fires, voltage is of no concern. The upside . . . no maintenance and it idles excellently compared to mechanical points.

buy it, install it, change nothing, except maybe timing, and be done with it.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Dennis Texas ok folks a follow up: I received my new replacement today part no. ignition kit 3BOS4U1 from hot spark. Took me about 5 minutes installed set timing done. This newer replacement I received was wonderful. It stands a bit taller so I could not use the original dust cover that goes inside under the rotor. No gap to set it mounts rigid in the pin out of distributor with one screw exactly like the original points did. You just put it in and, according to hot spark the resistive wire makes no difference, so I left mine in. I read the post about the resistive wire and voltages and all that but this is using the original set up and with resistive wire, module works just fine as far as the 12 volts at the distributor coil well the car ran fine with the points and all this does is eliminate the points so as long as it fires, voltage is of no concern. The upside no maintenance and it idles excellent compared to mechanical points. buy it, install it, change nothing, except maybe timing, and be done with it.

. . . uh, so why no installed picture?

. . . oh, beg to differ, but it does! The Hot-Spark module is a direct copy of the Pertronix unit, designed and patented to run on a full +12V! Will the Pertronix/Hot-Spark trigger function at +9V? . . . absolutely, just not with the designed trigger performance and, likely, its designed-in reliability factor!

The Pertronix patent lapsed allowing Hot-Spark to copy it verbatim without requiring licensing fee payments. It is the sole reason Hot-Spark can offer it at a discounted price - no R&D costs, just manufacturing. It is also the reason why they wouldn't redesign it to trigger at the same performance level at +9V! No matter how you slice it, if you operate either trigger at +9V, you're getting only 75% performance and efficiency and you're just not taking full advantage of your decision to change to electronic triggering in the first place.

All of that said, are you using a "stock" or "non-IR" coil or any aftermarket "IR" (internal resistance) coil with your coil's "stock" R-wiring? All of the things pointed out in my third column blue coil wiring diagrams still apply, no matter what Hot-Spark claims!

[Dennis Texas]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . uh, so why no installed picture? . . . oh, beg to differ, but it does! The Hot-Spark module is a direct copy of the Pertronix unit, designed and patented to run on a full +12V! Will the Pertronix/Hot-Spark trigger function at +9V? . . . absolutely, just not with the designed trigger performance and, likely, its designed-in reliability factor! :

well I'm sorry the people who build these devices says it makes no difference and it does not you are replacing your stock points and in addition leaving resistive network in place for some protection. As far as the blue coils it works with those as well but I have no endorsement only real life I did many situations and the end result is you are replacing only the mechanical points with the electronic firing device it either works or it doesn''t I did the installation and am very very pleased and thats is what I passed on "real life" I just installed and it works great and for newbies looking for an alternative this is it direct replacement and no second guessing ... I've seen the post about the voltages and you know what if it was that critical the system would of been revised when running mechanical points, that option was always there, but take in mind when left to just a coil and a firing system you leave the key on you are going to blow the lid off the coil or damage the circuit. I believe in KISS keep it simple. This is a direct replacement for your mechanical points no theories or what, if you just take the points out and ad the module original safety design for the coil is in place and you have a excellant ignition source no maintenance and no gaps to set just install it.

[tekenaar]

Well, you missed the point entirely, but, it's your car, run it the way you want . . . the consequences will be yours too, after all.

. . . still interested in seeing a pic of your particular installed unit, Dennis, if you'd care to share with the rest of us . . . the mounting method appears to be a bit different from rest.