Electronic Ignition Question

[Kappy]

I just installed the Pertronix 1847V electronic ignition on a 1973 opel GT. I can't get over the difference and plan to replace the carburetor with a Weber 32/36 next. I noticed there is a tapping sound coming from the distributor and was wondering if this is normal or did I install it incorrectly. The car did not have any tapping sound before. When I race the engine (I haven't begun driving the car on a regular basis yet) the tapping sound increases a bit more.

I appreciate all advice,

Thank you,

Kappy

[MICAH1]

That sound might be the distributor button not pushed completely down...

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Kappy I just installed the Pertronix 1847V electronic ignition on a 1973 opel GT. I can't get over the difference and plan to replace the carburetor with a Weber 32/36 next. I noticed there is a tapping sound coming from the distributor and was wondering if this is normal or did I install it incorrectly. The car did not have any tapping sound before. When I race the engine (I haven't begun driving the car on a regular basis yet) the tapping sound increases a bit more. I appreciate all advice, Thank you, Kappy

. . . are you sure that the cylindrical trigger magnet piece is pushed down all the way on the cam? If not, you also can't push the rotor down properly and, being up too high in the cap will cause it to hit the tops of the secondary contacts inside the disti cap where they're NOT machined for rotor tip clearance! . . . tick, tick, tick, tick for every rotor revolution!

[dryandell]

I had the pertronix on my car for a little over a month and was amazed at the difference it made over my points. Unfortunately, I just had to remove it and replace it with points once again. After the engine would warm up, it would miss and backfire-then die. After the engine would cool down, it would run fine again. I replaced the coil and plugs, checked my choke, and searched for vacuum leaks with no luck. I'd read in the forums how reliable the pertronix systems were-so that was the last thing I checked. Put the points back in and problems went away. I miss the electronic ignition, but having points beats pushing the car-even a lightweight GT. Does anyone know of a more reliable electric ignition?

[West Coast GT]

I'm using the Crane Cams XR7000 Points-to-Electronic conversion kit from Summit Racing. I've also swapped to their coil as I like to keep components of the same brand together for compatibility sake.

Rather than order from their catalog or online, I recommend calling their number and let them help choose the correct model. 800-230-3030.

The only problem I had was a bad electrical connection (that I caused) during my 1700 mile trip to the Tacoma Gathering last month. BTW, I carry backup points, condenser, cap, rotor, spark plugs, and plug wires in my on-board backup stash.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by dryandell I had the pertronix on my car for a little over a month and was amazed at the difference it made over my points. Unfortunately, I just had to remove it and replace it with points once again. After the engine would warm up, it would miss and backfire-then die. After the engine would cool down, it would run fine again. I replaced the coil and plugs, checked my choke, and searched for vacuum leaks with no luck. I'd read in the forums how reliable the pertronix systems were-so that was the last thing I checked. Put the points back in and problems went away. I miss the electronic ignition, but having points beats pushing the car-even a lightweight GT. Does anyone know of a more reliable electric ignition?

. . . the red (+) wire from the Pertronix is connected where?!! . . . to your coil + (15)? . . . if so, WRONG!! . . . only gets ~+9V there during run with stock coil wiring, two wires, clear and black/red, at coil + terminal . . . need separate wire connecting Pertronix red wire to sw. 12V (comes on with key) source!

[Dennis Texas]

Originally Posted by dryandell I had the pertronix on my car for a little over a month and was amazed at the difference it made over my points. Unfortunately, I just had to remove it and replace it with points once again. After the engine would warm up, it would miss and backfire-then die. After the engine would cool down, it would run fine again. I replaced the coil and plugs, checked my choke, and searched for vacuum leaks with no luck. I'd read in the forums how reliable the pertronix systems were-so that was the last thing I checked. Put the points back in and problems went away. I miss the electronic ignition, but having points beats pushing the car-even a lightweight GT. Does anyone know of a more reliable electric ignition?

It's amazing, I just went through the same exact symptoms. My car runs great idles nice then after the module in dist warms up it misfires loses power and eventually dies. After it cools back down it runs good for a few minutes. I thought it was my coil even though brand new, I swapped that first then I was afraid it was carburetor problems they act very similar. After going backs to my original points all problems cleared up. I'm getting ready to send it back.

[jmbinjax]

Have you run a separate wire for 12v sw as stated in post #6? You have to eliminate the original resistor wire. I used a pertronix previously, installed per instructions, and had not one problem. I've since changed to a compu-fire. Not due to a problem with the pertronix but it seemed it might be more reliable as you eliminate the cap and rotor but it is also more expensive (~4x).

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Dennis Texas It's amazing, I just went through the same exact symptoms. My car runs great idles nice then after the module in dist warms up it misfires loses power and eventually dies. After it cools back down it runs good for a few minutes. I thought it was my coil even though brand new, I swapped that first then I was afraid it was carburetor problems they act very similar. After going backs to my original points all problems cleared up. I'm getting ready to send it back.

????? . . . I own six of them installed in various Opel models with different distributors and have not had a single problem, ever, with any of them, my first since May 1978 . . . Perlux then! . . . I don't get it?

[newman27]

Originally Posted by tekenaar ????? . . . I own six of them installed in various Opel models with different distributors and have not had a single problem, ever, with any of them, my first since May 1978 . . . Perlux then! . . . I don't get it?

So, does anyone know if these electronic ignitions (Pertronix., Hot Spark, etc.) are in fact heat sensitive such that they can start to misfire or "shut down" after prolonged exposure to high under hood temperatures? I'm just curious if some presumed vapor lock / fuel delivery issues may actually be issues with the electronic ignition.

[Dennis Texas]

mine is a hot spark not a pertronix brand name. Yes I have run with and without the additional resistor I had trouble in the beginning but I finally added the resistor back in and it worked great and still does when cold. It is after about 10 miles of driving temperature gauge in the middle of the range no over heating problems but the module fails. I never I had a problem after installation because I only cranked it up briefly and let idle in the yard or went around the block. When I got my car inspected and using it for the daily driver is when the problem appeared. It is not a fuel problem, changing back to mechanical points corrected everything and I drive it about 40 miles a day now. I wrote the manufacturer about the problem, I have 4 of these units and it's going to fail I need to send them all back or find another way to install them, waiting on the manufacturer to write back they are closed today.

[jeff denton]

I've mentioned before that my ignition unit is a Motorola, that's what it says on the ignition box which resembles a Ford unit. It was found on that cherry little '69 Kadet we "stole" and used for parts.
I think it's an awesome setup. Puts out a fat blue spark that will jump all the way across my marine spark tester. Scary!
I wish I knew more about it, and where to get more, all I know is that's what I would want on a street car. In the class I raced my GT in, full of Fords that have ignition trouble a LOT, mine just purred and never skipped a beat. Always fired up instantly, too!
Has anyone else ever seen or used this ignition?

I'm still toying with the thought of prepping the car to run in Spokane's Outlaw Compact races. They have invited me join the fun, know what my car is and will accept it for competition. So if I do build an engine for it again, it will have the crank triggered ignition for sure. I really think it's the way to go. Distributors are just... dinosaurs.

[Dennis Texas]

Originally Posted by newman27 I'm just curious if some presumed vapor lock / fuel delivery issues may actually be issues with the electronic ignition.

That is exactly what it acted like I dismantled my weber on the side of the road to find nothing out of place or wrong with it by then it cooled off enough that I ran it back home to change the coil as it was hot. Older original coil did the same exact thing but it didn't even make it 2 miles.

[oldopelguy]

For a little clarification, the Hot Spark units are far, far, far less reliable than the Pertronics units they copy. Most guys I know with VWs went through two or three until they got one that worked reliably, and then they still carry spare points and condensors just in case. Look around on any of the VW forums and you will find that almost no-one recommends them to anyone and that they usually don't work at all or have the same hot failure issue as Dennis Texas.

Wired correctly a real Pertronics or Comp-u-fire points eliminator module has never once let me down. I like the magnet assembly on the Comp-u-fire units better myself, but both have always worked flawlessly for me.

[BQS4]

I was just about to say what Stephen just said, these Pertronix "knock-offs", and that's what they are, are not up to being actual Pertronix. They hit Ebay far cheaper than Pertronix, and it shows. I have one Pertronix I have moved between 3 cars and all have run without a problem. If you don't or can't afford a Pertronix or Comp-u-fire, then by all means stay with the points, as they are stll the most reliable things going.

[newman27]

Originally Posted by Dennis Texas mine is a hot spark not a pertronix brand name. Yes I have run with and without the additional resistor I had trouble in the beginning but I finally added the resistor back in and it worked great and still does when cold. It is after about 10 miles of driving temperature gauge in the middle of the range no over heating problems but the module fails. I never I had a problem after installation because I only cranked it up briefly and let idle in the yard or went around the block. When I got my car inspected and using it for the daily driver is when the problem appeared. It is not a fuel problem, changing back to mechanical points corrected everything and I drive it about 40 miles a day now. I wrote the manufacturer about the problem, I have 4 of these units and it's going to fail I need to send them all back or find another way to install them, waiting on the manufacturer to write back they are closed today.

I have the Hot Spark too and I think I am having a similar issue. Car starts right up, idles great, and I can drive it like crazy all day long but once it heats up and I am forced to stop for a light, the tach starts to jump around while idling and then application of the accelerator results in a stall condition. I thought this was being caused entirely due to the screw coming out of my vacuum advance on the way to Charlotte but unfortunately the issue is still present even after securing the vacuum advance unit. In the interest of getting to the root of this issue, here are some other points related to my experience that I would be interested in hearing if they match your symptoms:

• Tach jumps when the problem is about to occur while at idle
• Turning the car off and then immediately back on with some extra RPMs corrects the issue until the next time I have to stop for a light
• Keeping the RPMs up while stopped (i.e., not letting it fall back to idle but instead keep the RPMs up around 1,500 - 2,000) will enable the car to accelerate from a stop without stalling

I'd be interested in more info on your symptoms and also what Hot Spark says in their response.

Matt

[newman27]

Originally Posted by oldopelguy For a little clarification, the Hot Spark units are far, far, far less reliable than the Pertronics units they copy. Most guys I know with VWs went through two or three until they got one that worked reliably, and then they still carry spare points and condensors just in case. Look around on any of the VW forums and you will find that almost no-one recommends them to anyone and that they usually don't work at all or have the same hot failure issue as Dennis Texas. Wired correctly a real Pertronics or Comp-u-fire points eliminator module has never once let me down. I like the magnet assembly on the Comp-u-fire units better myself, but both have always worked flawlessly for me.

Originally Posted by BQS4 I was just about to say what Stephen just said, these Pertronix "knock-offs", and that's what they are, are not up to being actual Pertronix. They hit Ebay far cheaper than Pertronix, and it shows. I have one Pertronix I have moved between 3 cars and all have run without a problem. If you don't or can't afford a Pertronix or Comp-u-fire, then by all means stay with the points, as they are stll the most reliable things going.

You guys posted while I was still typing my post above. Based on this info, it sounds like I need to upgrade to the Pertronix Ignitor and not even bother trying to debug the Hot Spark. The good news is that I can continue to commute in the GT with no issues until I get the Pertronix because that drive isn't long enough to trigger the problem.

Thanks!

Matt

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Dennis Texas mine is a hot spark not a pertronix brand name. Yes I have run with and without the additional resistor I had trouble in the beginning but I finally added the resistor back in and it worked great and still does when cold. It is after about 10 miles of driving temperature gauge in the middle of the range no over heating problems but the module fails. I never I had a problem after installation because I only cranked it up briefly and let idle in the yard or went around the block. When I got my car inspected and using it for the daily driver is when the problem appeared. It is not a fuel problem, changing back to mechanical points corrected everything and I drive it about 40 miles a day now. I wrote the manufacturer about the problem, I have 4 of these units and it's going to fail I need to send them all back or find another way to install them, waiting on the manufacturer to write back they are closed today.

. . . let me ponder this for a moment and ask you some more questions about yours . . .

Assumption - feel free to correct where wrong - you initially ran your Hot-Spark trigger with a non-internal-resistor coil and without any external resistor or stock resistor wire at the + terminal of the coil and probably hooked the Hot Spark + (red?) wire there too, correct? . . . after running the car on the road like this for a while, you then experienced your problem, right?

. . . well, grasshopper, if so, you most likely fried your e-trigger module right there due to excessive current flow in the ignition coil and, hence, the e-trigger! . . . your coil was probably really hot, too, after that run, right?

Let me explain, basically any e-trigger is designed to replace the "points" - basically just an on/off switch - which alternately charges and discharges (dwell) the coil to provide a high voltage spark to the plugs.

While points are the most basic way to accomplish this, they will begin to degrade from the point of installation onward . . . however, they are relatively robust, i.e. can handle varying currents of different coil types. They will degrade more quickly with high-performance coils (higher current/heat), of course, but they will work . . . and either with or without that external resistor, as in your case!

That said, the e-trigger is designed to perform the same "coil switching" function, but electronically, and with no degradation of function over time! It IS designed to operate at a specific "current" switching level, however. This IS covered in the installation instructions by specifying specific internal coil resistance required, which limits the current that the e-trigger has to switch.

The e-trigger is not as robust as a set of points when this current limit is exceeded by user's incorrect installation of coil and power source wiring. That's why they're so specific about powering both the e-trigger and coil . . . ~3.0Ω total resistance, done either internally in or externally by either a resistor or r-wire on the coil.

OK, quick test of the above . . . with an external resistor wired between sw. +12V and the coil + terminal, connect one of your "never-used" Hot-Spark's + wire to the sw. 12V side of the coil's external resistor and H-S's trigger wire to the "minus" side of the coil and go for another "road test" . . .

I'd bet this one won't fail you again . . . ever!

[newman27]

Originally Posted by tekenaar ...if so, you most likely fried your e-trigger module right there due to excessive current flow in the ignition coil and, hence, the e-trigger! . . . your coil was probably really hot, too, after that run, right?...

Would damaging the Hot Spark in this way enable it to continue to function properly but fail after exposure to heat or would it fail completely? I recall reading in another thread once that you should also not turn the ignition key to power on electrical equipment without actually starting the car (to say simulate an "accessory" key position) as that could also damage the electronic ignition. Do you think there is any validity in that warning? I know I was guilty of this while testing out my XM radio prior to reading that post. Maybe I damaged the Hot Spark myself.

Thanks,

Matt

[jeff denton]

Well I know for a fact that if I accidentally leave the ignition switched ON with the engine not running, that within about fifteen minutes the MSD Blaster coil will explode and spray an icky brown stinky oil all over the place.
A year later with a different engine, new Blaster coil and using the same distributor and ignition module all was fine. Won a race, even!

[Dennis Texas]

Originally Posted by newman27 Tach jumps when the problem is about to occur while at idle Turning the car off and then immediately back on with some extra RPMs corrects the issue until the next time I have to stop for a light Keeping the RPMs up while stopped (i.e., not letting it fall back to idle but instead keep the RPMs up around 1,500 - 2,000) will enable the car to accelerate from a stop without stalling I'd be interested in more info on your symptoms and also what Hot Spark says in their response. Matt

You are exactly right, that is what mine did, sometimes if you don't let the RPM drop too low it will still fire on higher RPM. I just recently pulled this car out it has 20,000 on rebuilt drive train from PO after a little brake work and other little mods like the hot spark I was very happy with it so I decided to put it on the road. I thought my gas was the problem from sitting all these years but it turned out that it was to blame only because thats what it acted like. I will let you know what hot spark says, like I said I have 4 of these units, two are on rebuilt engines and have never been fired up yet. Since changing back to mechanical points it has over 200 miles put on it and still running fine. As far as coils exploding or ruining the unit by leaving power on that can happen in systems with no resistance in the 12 volt feed for the unit. You leave the ignition on and the magnet or points are closed your putting 12 volt battery source across the coil and mechanism that fires it, something is going to give, in a point system the coil heats up and blows the top off in electronic units the firing device heats up with coil as a load and either the top blows off the coil or the module burns up. Thats why the opel GT from the factory has the resistance wire in series with ignition so if you leave the key on you have some resistance in the circuit to help drop the applied 12 volts to the coil.

"Assumption - feel free to correct where wrong - you initially ran your Hot-Spark trigger with a non-internal-resistor coil and without any external resistor or stock resistor wire at the + terminal of the coil and probably hooked the Hot Spark + (red?) wire there too, correct? . . . after running the car on the road like this for a while, you then experienced your problem, right?"

tekenaar, your assumptions I feel are wrong ( I had enough resistance to run without the ballast they provided because I have the original resistive wire in place and a performance coil well larger coil by bosch, I had trouble with the tach so I added the external resistor they supplied with kit and it made the tach respond better so I left it that way) thats what is good about communication it gives you perspective of others outside the box, new eyes if you will...it is a heat related problem with the unit itself, it never was on the road with out a load resistor and I never left the key on. I measured resistance when I assembled as per the instructions. When it is cold it runs and works excellent once engine gets up to operating temps you start feeling the problem especially at lower speeds until it eventually just does not run and dies, soon as it cools off it fires right back up and within a few miles it does the same. I'm not going to hook up any more of these units until the factory gives me a solution or my money back. My bigger coil did get warmer thats why I thought it was bad and used the original and had the same problem. The unit in my opinion is getting hot and failing closed, it was set up as per the instructions it has always had some sort of resistive load across it, never was battery 12 volts applied to it except possible at cranking speeds due to the other 12 V feed from the solenoid while being cranked.
All ideas are appreciated, I do have one of these units working on my 71 but it has not been on more than a couple mile runs at a time due to no inspection and registration. Sometimes at night I take it out around the block but it's also cooler at night so I really don't know what that unit will do or not do under operating conditions on the highway.

[oldopelguy]

You know I read all these posts again and I still can't figure out how other people hook up these things in their cars no matter how they try and explain it.

The instructions for the electronic ignition modules we are using on our Opels, all of them, are written for people installing them in VW bugs. On the VW the (+) side of the coil is a 12V feed directly from the ignition switch since the coil has an internal resistor, so it makes sense to use that as the 12V input to the ignition module. The coil trigger gets hooked up to the (-) side of the coil to trigger it and the module is grounded (for that coil circuit) by screwing it in place and using the small braided copper wire the points used to use to ground.

On the Opel the (+) side of the coil is not a 12V feed. Instead they added a ballast resistor to limit DC current through the coil in the form of a resistor wire and a bypass wire to feed straight 12V to the coil for a hotter spark during starting. That all works fine for powering up the coil, it's actually a great design, but in order to get a proper 12V for the points eliminator you need to hook it up upstream of the ballast resistor. In the case of the GT that means all the way back at the fusebox upstream of the clear-insulation ballast resistor wire. The resistor wire and all the connections to the (+) side of the coil can remain as-is, that system works fine, even with a new coil as long as it's an external resistor coil. If you would rather use a ceramic resistor instead of the clear ballast resistor wire you can bypass all those and hook your fuse-box feed wire for the points eliminator to one side of the resistor to feed it and the other side of the resistor to the coil (+) side.

All that background out there, how can you be running both the stock resistor wire and an external resistor and the coil still work? Together they would drop voltage to nearly 6V and make for a very weak spark. Along the same lines, is the 12V feed wire to the HotSpark coming straight from the fuse box or is it somewhere in the middle of the voltage reduction from the resistors?

I don't know exactly what's inside the HotSpark module, but at it's simplist it has to be a hall-effect magnetic sensor and at least one transistor biased so that when the Hall-effect becomes conductive the transistor shorts the (-) lead to ground with a minimum of resistance. The transistor will be acting like an amplifier, boosting the small current capacity of the Hall-effect sensor to a level of current capacity as needed for the coil. With an improper feed voltage to those circuit components I would need technical specifications to completely rule out the effects being described.

On the other end of the circuit is the ground connection inside the distributor. If the points are working correctly they should be good, but it's worth double-checking when you're next in there. You may also me able to extend your heat-resistance by adding a dab of heat conductive grease to the underside of the module when you install it next, to help it use the plate inside the distributor as a heat sink. This might bite you in the butt, though, if the engine is heating that plate up, in which case it might be possible to slip something in-between to limit the heat transfer from the plate to the module a bit as long as the pin and screw on the module still make good electrical contact.

It might be worth noting too that a spark amplification box like those made my MSD uses the points or ignition module as a trigger signal and does the hard work of grounding the coil within itself. That means if the ignition modules are failing due to high current levels when they heat up adding one of those boxes would reduce the current through the module to a fraction of what it is now and it might continue to work indefinitely. Certainly more expensive than the $59 for a new module, but ultimately a better spark and probably better running car.

[Dennis Texas]

Hot Spark has given me the following email,


Hi,


The blue ignition module requires a coil with at least 3.2 Ohms primary resistance.

The red ignition module requires a coil with at least 1.5 Ohms primary resistance.

Don't use a low-resistance coil, such as Accel or MSD.

We'll send a replacement 3BOS4U1 ignition kit (red).

Please return the blue module to:

Hot-Spark
3723 Keats Dr 133
Austin TX 78704


Regards,


Roy


In addition to this problem the first two modules I bought were blue plastic cased the last two I bought were red. I'll try it and see let ya guys know the outcome.

[jeff denton]

I wonder if the problem starts with an inability to understand the coil information just given. Undoubtedly compounded by a sense of frugality, you know, "the old coil worked, why replace it".
I don't think any of us are actual rocket scientists, and few understand basic electical theory, but there are some actual mechanics in the crowd.
These ignition systems need to come complete with the coil required and a very detailed instruction sheet.
Dennis, I think your company could handle that. How about put together an ignition kit for our Opel enthusiasts? Surely within minutes it would be known that yours is the one to buy, period.
All the products I've bought from OGTS were excellent, and the instructions supplied were incredibly thorough and even illustrated! Not to mention the friendly advice just a phone call away.

Warning us what coil not to use was only half helpful. Why don't they spell out exactly which one they need us to use with their product, by brand name and part number?

[newman27]

FYI - I found the 1847V Ignitor unit on eBay available from a few vendors for $60 - $65 with shipping. Note that I could not find an application of the newer Ignitor II mapped to our Opels. The Pertronix catalog lists only the original Ignitor 1847V as being appropriate. I corrected my earlier posted link into the Pertronix website to take you to the right product.

Matt