Pertronix+Flamethrower=enough resistance?

[paul.catherine]

I bought the standard 1847V unit straight from Pertronix by phone... and asked for help on a great coil to use on my 73 GT...

He recommended, and I bought, part number 60130, a 3.0 ohm Flame Thrower HV, apparently designed for 4 and 6 cyl engines with points, optical triggers or Ignitor ignitions... lotta juice at 60KV, but he assured me that would be fine with an Ignitor in a GT....

I put in the Flamethrower and the car seems to run fine forthe few runs around the block... and now I am about to swap out the points for the Pertronix Ignitor... and read here, all the worries about the resistor wire, hookups, and special wiring to avoid frying the unit or causing it to shut down after a few miles....

So, my question - do I need a resistor? New wiring? Is my flamethrower of sufficiently high resistance to not need an added resistor? If I need a new pos and neg, where do I tap off for the correct running of the Ignitor?

I would not doubt this has already been asked somewhere, but I have not found it yet... I did find some talk about rewiring - which to me did not sound like the simple drop-in pertronix guy was telling me, using the Flamethrower...
LOL

Any thoughts GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks,
Paul
Flagstaff AZ
73 Yellow GT

[BQS4]

Look at the diagram in Otto's (tekenaar) post 35 of this thread. I don't know if this answers your question, but, it couldn't hurt.

[newman27]

As I recall, some coils have an internal resistor and some don't. I would check into that as well with respect to the flamethrower unit you purchased. This piece of the puzzle may have also been covered in the thread that Gene linked...

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by paul.catherine ...He recommended, and I bought, part number 60130, a 3.0 ohm Flame Thrower HV, ... So, my question - do I need a resistor? New wiring? Is my flamethrower of sufficiently high resistance to not need an added resistor? If I need a new pos and neg, where do I tap off for the correct running of the Ignitor?

The 3 Ohm Flamethrower by definition is an internal resistance coil, so you simply bypass the factor Opel resistor wire, and power everything (coil AND Pertronix) with the full 14 volts from the fuse box.

HTH

[Dale .D]

Did the same as you with the flame thrower & pertronix & had the same problems.Feel your frustration.Even withe the mechanic talking to the pertronix & frame thrower guys he got it wrong . A different mechanic finally got it right.Had to ditch the flame thrower & put in a resister.Been perect since.To some people this is easy stuff but personally wiring is evil!

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by Dale .D Did the same as you with the flame thrower & Pertronix & had the same problems.Feel your frustration.Even withe the mechanic talking to the Pertronix & frame thrower guys he got it wrong . A different mechanic finally got it right.Had to ditch the flame thrower & put in a resister.Been perfect since.To some people this is easy stuff but personally wiring is evil!

I don't think this post says anything about frustration, he just wants to get it right.

Dale, what Flamethrower coil did you have? There are both low resistance (0.45 and 1.5 ohm) and 3 ohm versions (no resistor and internal resistor respectively) so if you have the "correct" 3 ohm version, no need for a resistor wire. And FWIW, if you want to use a non-resistor coil (as in an Opel OEM coil or similar aftermarket coil) you ONLY power the coil with the resistor wire; the Pertronix itself MUST be powered with a non-resistored supply.

HTH

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by kwilford I don't think this post says anything about frustration, he just wants to get it right. Dale, what Flamethrower coil did you have? There are both low resitance (0.45 and 1.5 ohm) and 3 ohm versions (no resistor and internal resistor respectively) so if you have the "correct: 3 ohm version, no need for a resistor wire. And FWIW, if you want to use a non-resistor coil (as in an Opel OEM coil or similar aftermarket coil) you ONLY power the coil with the resistor wire; the Pertronix itself MUST be powered with a non-resistored supply. HTH

Hi all - thanks - I did indeed see that 'schematic" of good vs bad wire-ups... and I got the 3 ohm Flamethrower HV variant so as to avoid resistors, kinda bummed I now gotta run new wires, LOL... oh well... Could I run a fused 12V off the battery so I don't have to go in thru the firewall? Or is there a better heavy duty pick-off?

Thanks again -
Paul
Flagstaff, AZ
73 Yellow GT

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Look at post 63 of this thread. I don't know if this answers your question, but, it couldn't hurt. The diagram in the post is by Otto (tekenaar) http://www.opelgt.com/forums/1b-igni...-question.html

and uh, looking further at this thread... and not to beat a dead horse... (thanks for your patience!)...

so, this is the correct setup, and I pick up 12 V off the starter, then trace back the clear resistor wire and snip the bugger off wherever that traces back to (where?)...?

and then hook up as thus? So:

>>>>CLIP>>>>>
Ok, I just want to check BEFORE I turn the key. I have a Flamethrower 3 ohm internal resistance coil and an Ignitor I. Is this okay so far?

I connect the BLACK wire from the Ignitor to the negative (-) terminal on the coil.

I connect the RED wire from the Ignitor to the positive (+) terminal on the coil.

I connect the GREEN wire from the tachometer to the negative (-) terminal on the coil.

I connect the BLACK wire from the starter to the positive (+) terminal on the coil.

Finally, because I have an internally resisted coil, I replace the clear resistor wire with a normal wire and connect that to the positive (+) terminal on the coil.

Any objections?

TIA,

Jay

Yes . . . BEFORE I turn the key.

Yes . . . BLACK wire from the Ignitor.

Yes . . . RED wire from the Ignitor.

Yes . . . GREEN wire.

Yes . . . BLACK wire from the starter.

Yes . . . replace the clear resistor wire with a normal wire.
>>>UNCLIP>>>>

Seems like the green tach wire is not changing much fron stock, right? And the black wire from the starter to the (+) on the coil sounds counter-intuitive, since black is usually (-), but oh well... Man I wish I had a photo of the right wires going where LOL

Thanks all!
Paul
Flagstaff AZ
73 opel GT

[opellane]

I think if you measure the ohm's of your coil and it's less than 3 or zero ohms than you connect the clear wire to the pos. side of coil. The 3 ohm coils needs resistor before + side of coil. The wire that comes from the starter to the + side of coil only gives 12 volts to coil when your cranking the engine (starter) as an added boost to the coil.
Flame Thrower coils come in two types.
I am using a Mallory Coil in my GT also MSD makes one too.

If wrong coil is used the Pertronix will just burn up in minutes.

One more thing that people always forget. Never leave your key switch to on postion, when engine not running. If your parked and turn key on to listen to your radio, this will overheat the coil and burn out the pertronix and you will not be able to start the engine. Pertronix will burn up
I have an extra pertronix that I take with me, but I never had to use it.

[Redskinsjbs]

Originally Posted by paul.catherine and uh, looking further at this thread... and not to beat a dead horse... (thanks for your patience!)... so, this is the correct setup, and I pick up 12 V off the starter, then trace back the clear resistor wire and snip the bugger off wherever that traces back to (where?)...? and then hook up as thus? So: >>>>CLIP>>>>> Ok, I just want to check BEFORE I turn the key. I have a Flamethrower 3 ohm internal resistance coil and an Ignitor I. Is this okay so far? I connect the BLACK wire from the Ignitor to the negative (-) terminal on the coil. I connect the RED wire from the Ignitor to the positive (+) terminal on the coil. I connect the GREEN wire from the tachometer to the negative (-) terminal on the coil. I connect the BLACK wire from the starter to the positive (+) terminal on the coil. Finally, because I have an internally resisted coil, I replace the clear resistor wire with a normal wire and connect that to the positive (+) terminal on the coil. Any objections? TIA, Jay Yes . . . BEFORE I turn the key. Yes . . . BLACK wire from the Ignitor. Yes . . . RED wire from the Ignitor. Yes . . . GREEN wire. Yes . . . BLACK wire from the starter. Yes . . . replace the clear resistor wire with a normal wire. >>>UNCLIP>>>> Seems like the green tach wire is not changing much fron stock, right? And the black wire from the starter to the (+) on the coil sounds counter-intuitive, since black is usually (-), but oh well... Man I wish I had a photo of the right wires going where LOL Thanks all! Paul Flagstaff AZ 73 opel GT

See if this helps . . .

(The purple wire is what replaces the clear resistor wire)

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by Redskinsjbs See if this helps . . . (The purple wire is what replaces the clear resistor wire)

WOW - this is purrfect!!!

THANKS!

Paul
Flagstaff, AZ
73 Yellow GT

[opellane]

Check out this too, Otto's Post #14

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by opellane Check out this too, Otto's Post #14

thanks! Now, I have note looked yet at the fusebox yet, where to meet the resistor wire at that end (not that it matters I guess), but I wonder, is it sent to any particular fuse? and I read somehwere here that it's better to take the power from the non-fused side of the box??

Thanks,
Paul
Flagstaff AZ
73 Yellow GT

[opellane]

FWIW, If it were me. I would just get the right coil. Use the clear resistor wire if it's not burn out (open). Then you don't have to run a new wire. It's makes everything look neat and simple. Just my thoughts.
What ever you decide to do, Good Luck Pertronix's is better than adjusting Dist. points.



Off topic: Have you installed a 12 volt starter relay to protect your igntion switch from overload and burn out ?? It's a Good idea

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by opellane FWIW, If it were me. I would just get the right coil. Use the clear resistor wire if it's not burn out (open). Then you don't have to run a new wire. It's makes everything look neat and simple. Just my thoughts. What ever you decide to do, Good Luck Pertronix's is better than adjusting Dist. points. Off topic: Have you installed a 12 volt starter relay to protect your igntion switch from overload and burn out ?? It's a Good idea

I will drop back to the original coil if this fun does not pan out, as it was "ok"... .

And I did buy a relay - it is on my list of fun to do on the ole ride!

thanks again!
Paul
Flagstaff AZ
73 Opel GT

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by paul.catherine ... and I got the 3 ohm Flamethrower HV variant so as to avoid resistors, kinda bummed I now gotta run new wires, LOL... oh well... Could I run a fused 12V off the battery so I don't have to go in thru the firewall? Or is there a better heavy duty pick-off?

The coil MUST be energized by a "switched" power supply, that is, one that comes on when you turn the ignition on, and off when you turn it off. If you take power from the battery to supply the coil, how would you shut the car off?
That said, another solution is to install that relay so desirable to protect the GT's ignition switch contacts, take the power supply from the starter post (using a fuse to protect the wiring) and use the stock resistor wire to ONLY switch the relay. If you don't understand what I am suggesting, don't do it and read on.

Originally Posted by opellane ...The 3 ohm coils needs resistor before + side of coil.

No, this is incorrect. The Flamethrower 3 ohm coil IS an internal resistance coil. If you use the Opel factory coil (or some other non-resistored coil) THEN you still use the resistor wire to energize the coil, BUT NOT the Pertronix itself, as it MUST be powered by the full 12 volts. And not to make too fine a point of it, FULL voltage of a automobile "12 volt" system is actually between 13.8 and 14.4 volts, in case someone takes their volt meter to the coil +'ve post

Originally Posted by paul.catherine thanks! Now, I have note looked yet at the fuse box yet, where to meet the resistor wire at that end (not that it matters I guess), but I wonder, is it sent to any particular fuse? and I read somewhere here that it's better to take the power from the non-fused side of the box??

This is pretty darn simple, you only need to run one new wire. Look at the fuse box, and find the wire that has a clear insulator (although over the years it usually becomes a bit yellowish but is still somewhat translucent). It is the third terminal from the end. Pull that wire off the fuse box terminal, and run a new 14 gauge wire from that terminal, through whatever hole you can find or make through the firewall, and connect the other end to the +'ve post on the coil. The end of the clear resistor wire at the coil should also be disconnected or else you will have a live terminal flopping around back at the fuse box. Or, if you prefer, connect the new wire to the same terminal connector as the resistor wire at the fuse box, leaving the resistor wire in place, and do the same at the coil. Having the two wires run in parallel won't harm things at all if you don't like having loose ends, and want to leave the original resistor wire in place (not a bad idea so the next owner doesn't call you a "bad PO".

HTH

[paul.catherine]

Originally Posted by kwilford The coil MUST be energized by a "switched" power supply, that is, one that comes on when you turn the ignition on, and off when you turn it off. If you take power from the battery to supply the coil, how would you shut the car off? That said, another solution is to install that relay so desirable to protect the GT's ignition switch contacts, take the power supply from the starter post (using a fuse to protect the wiring) and use the stock resistor wire to ONLY switch the relay. If you don't understand what I am suggesting, don't do it and read on. No, this is incorrect. The Flamethrower 3 ohm coil IS an internal resistance coil. If you use the Opel factory coil (or some other non-resistored coil) THEN you still use the resistor wire to energize the coil, BUT NOT the Pertronix itself, as it MUST be powered by the full 12 volts. And not to make too fine a point of it, FULL voltage of a automobile "12 volt" system is actually between 13.8 and 14.4 volts, in case someone takes their volt meter to the coil +'ve post This is pretty darn simple, you only need to run one new wire. Look at the fuse box, and find the wire that has a clear insulator (although over the years it usually becomes a bit yellowish but is still somewhat translucent). It is the third terminal from the end. Pull that wire off the fuse box terminal, and run a new 14 gauge wire from that terminal, through whatever hole you can find or make through the firewall, and connect the other end to the +'ve post on the coil. The end of the clear resistor wire at the coil should also be disconnected or else you will have a live terminal flopping around back at the fuse box. Or, if you prefer, connect the new wire to the same terminal connector as the resistor wire at the fuse box, leaving the resistor wire in place, and do the same at the coil. Having the two wires run in parallel won't harm things at all if you don't like having loose ends, and want to leave the original resistor wire in place (not a bad idea so the next owner doesn't call you a "bad PO". HTH

Keith - awesome, thanks, in the wake of all the outpouring of help here, I figured the one new wire would need to go to 12V, if only for the Ignitor; but I can juice the flamethrower + pertronix off this, good point (and not full time 12 V LOL)...

Sorry, I am still a newbie! .. and I imagine I can find a way through the firewall to the fuseblock, but do folks here have a typical, "easiest" route through the firewall? thanks -

I see in the thread above, and with others, that a 2nd new wire up from the starter is suggested by some - I presume to offer extra amps and prevent voltage "sag"... And this second wire does not seem essential, but at least a "good idea", eh?

You are right, in all it does not seem hard at all - just antsy about frying stuff without being clear on what goes where -

thanks again!
Paul
Flagstaff AZ
73 Yellow GT

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Look at the diagram in Otto's (tekenaar) post 35 of this thread. I don't know if this answers your question, but, it couldn't hurt.

Originally Posted by opellane Check out this too, Otto's Post #14

. . . direct links to my cited posts in the two posts (#2 and #13) in this thread mentioned above . . .