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Thread: Ultimate Opel Spark Plug

  1. #21
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Gordon, as with any internet posting, you have to consider the source before taking it too personaly. We are a diverse group here and as we have seen in the past, not all postings fall within what may be considered amiable.

    Dave possesses a wealth of information about Opel's and is a major contributor to the OMC and the Blitz. His style of conveying that information can come across as abrasive and counter to the core spirit of this site.

    Speaking for myself, I know Dave's intent is to help and can usually see the point he is trying to get across in the meat of his post.
    Well, I've certainly been guilty of that myself!

    Consider my hatchet buried!
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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Here's a picture of a durango 5.7l spark plug.


    It sets deep into the combustion chamber. Get the idea?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescifiguy View Post
    That's enough discussion about not discussing stuff.

    I want to learn something from this thread.

    I'm curious about the concept of using plugs that PROTRUDE into the combustion chamber. I can see potential pros and cons to this. These are entirely layman's guesses and by no means should be taken as definitive conclusions. They are merely points for discussion.

    Pros:
    Spark occurs closer to the center of the air/fuel column entering the combustion chamber. Possibly less chance of the air/fuel mixture not igniting because the spark normally occurs so close to the wall of the combustion chamber.

    Cons:
    The plug will get a LOT hotter being surrounded by more flame. Possible interference with the in and out flow of gasses during the cycle. Possible wave front interruption. The risk of a too long plug hitting the piston.

    Thoughts on these points and my original questions?
    Well, my theory is based on my experiences with the 1.5 and 1.6 heads.

    For those that don't know, those heads required a .750" reach plug from the factory, due to the smaller combustion chamber and therefore thicker combustion chamber walls. I have found that these so called 'small chamber' heads always had better combustion properties than the bigger chamber heads (1.9, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4), which all use a .460" reach spark plug.

    Now part of that better combustion is no doubt due to higher compression, and part of it due to the smaller chamber itself (flame travel speed matters less when you have a shorter distance to travel).

    But in thinking about it, I realized that part of the improvement may be from the fact that the spark plug protrudes 1/4" closer to the center of the chamber (ever notice most new engines have the plugs dead-center in the chambers?). As well, due to the angle of the plug in the head, the plug also protrudes a little bit lower in the chamber, closer to the piston.

    It was my intention to test short plugs and long plugs back-to-back on a chassis dyno to either prove or disprove my theory, but my friend's shop that had the dyno closed up. They were 12 minutes away from my shop previously, the new owners of the dyno are 2 hours away!

    My only concerns with the long plugs are that they:

    1) Won't work with domed pistons due to the potential for contact.
    2) Will get carbon buildup on the threads, hence the removal of the last 1/4" of thread.
    3) With the threads intact, there will be multiple hot spots and potential melting of the threads under high loads.
    4) Not sure if a colder heat range is required, since the longer plug is not having all that combustion heat absorbed by 100% of the threads.

    I would have figured all this out with dyno testing, but never got the chance.
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-15-2012 at 08:31 PM. Reason: more info
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellaopelgt View Post
    I believe that many of our motors have had some sort of modification in one way or another. Due to the fact of such variances in one motor to another, the ONLY way to test different spark plug brands and such would have to be performed on a BONE STOCK engine to get a starting point and then applied to ones own motor depending on modifications. Sound Good??? Ok... Now... who's got a BONE STOCK motor we can start the testing with??
    FWIW, over the years I have tested every plug I could get my hands on on multiple engines. I did find that the Bosch Platinums worked very well on bone-stock engines. As in points/condensor/stock coil.

    But they sucked for use with a stronger ignition.

    I now use NGK's or Torquemaster's (modified Bosch copper) exclusively for performance and racing applications. The spark kernal energy of the Torquemaster's with a good ignition is ridiculous...I think you could weld with them. But I emphasize the fact that you need to be able to supply the voltage to the plugs to gain the advantage.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-13-2012 at 06:27 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Cutting down the threads...

    BTW, I made a simple fixture to remove the threads on these longer plugs. Used a thick scrap of steel and tapped it to match the plug threads (14 mm x 1.25 pitch), then chucked the spark plug in a hand drill whilst sanding the threads off with a small 2" disc grinder.

    Once that was done, I threw the plug in my drill press and used some 150 grit paper, 240 grit paper, and Scotchbrite to smooth things out. Total time: 3 minutes.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-15-2012 at 08:34 PM. Reason: more info
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    My Flickr photos.
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    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Opelitis afflicted My location charlie1966's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescifiguy View Post
    Consider my hatchet buried!
    Where?

    As for NGK Iridium plugs. I got a set just last week and they come with a thick collar which can be removed if a longer reach is needed.
    "You can't fix stupid, but stupid eventually fixes itself." -Issac T.

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    ...My only concerns with the long plugs are that they:

    1) Won't work with domed pistons due to the potential for contact.
    2) Will get carbon buildup on the threads, hence the removal of the last 1/4" of thread.
    3) With the threads intact, there will be multiple hot spots and potential melting of the threads under high loads.
    4) Not sure if a colder heat range is required, since the longer plug is not having all that combustion heat absorbed by 100% of the threads.
    I'm following your lead with the long reach.
    1,2 and three yep.
    As for number four I started off with a cold plug then moved hotter step by step.
    I'm also still running on the rich side for safety reasons(lower cylinder temps).
    Getting there slowly but surely.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    @ Gordy- I already see a LOT of good info here. I have already have learned a thing or two.

    @ Bob- I agree on the BOSCH Plats, if you're going to keep the system stock, they're great. The wife's stock 74 Sportwagon has them, and they allow the car to be started easily at anytime or weather. Hit the gas pedal twice, turn the key and she's alive.

    Also, I should have added in my previous post, I am NOT currently running the NASCAR plugs in my Sportwagon. As stated and clarified by Dan, that the plugs are cold. When I say "short runs" I mean I have run them a day or so in normal driving, not out on the Hwy.

    Now, if testing wanted to be done, I have two stock motors here, one is a weber'ed 74, the other is a 75 F.I., both are running Pertronix.
    "Yes, I do have a rifle rack in my Sportwagon"

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    Iridiium spark plugs and MSD-Jacobs Hi Energy Ignition: Thoughts/Comments?

    All,
    Long ago I installed a Jacobs hi-energy ignition system in my 86 Fiero GT. The company recommended Copper Core plugs only and to experiment with the plug gap until the desired combination of light tan on porcelain along with smooth engine operation is achieved; being that the high voltage is going to waste if the factory plug gaps are used. To take advantage of the bright kernel of voltage that these ignition systems can deliver, the plug gap must be opened in .005 inch increments...

    The following link from MSD states to not use an iridium plug with the MSD; the same info I recall from my Jacobs system.: Best sparkplugs + MSD 6AL - MSD Tech Support Forums
    I'd like to hear what our experienced folks on this site have to say about using iridiums with these aftermarket high energy ignition systems. As for me, I'll stick with my Bosch Platinums with my XR 700 electronic ignition. (Note: tried using anti-oil fouling spark plug extenders with the platinums but something interesting occured which made me remove them.....oh, my engine is a bit worn which explains my attempted use of the anti oil fouling plug extenders.......next stop are the JC Whitney Engine Rebuild Tablets!!....that's another topic for another thread.......
    Take Care,
    Mike

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Well, golly, now I'm all confused. Mike had sent that link to me before and I admit to not having read it, but I read it this time. The MSD techy is pretty darn definitive about not using "fancy" plugs, just copper ones rated a step or two colder. It seems that the skinny wire iridiums are a big no-no.

    I can't make heads or tails of plug charts. It's unbelievable how many types of plugs there are.

    So now I need a good quality copper plug that's a step or two cooler than stock. Can anyone decypher the charts and recommend an appropriate plug?

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescifiguy View Post

    So now I need a good quality copper plug that's a step or two cooler than stock.
    The CD unit multi fires during the burn time.
    Not the firing voltage!

    A good plug to start with is a autolite 63.
    Read the ground electrode to fine tune the heat range.
    The ground electrode should turn color around 2/3 of the way to the shell.
    Disclaimer: I've got a pretty good idea of Gordon's setup! If you're not comfortable monkeying with your car, DON'T!
    Last edited by tekenaar; 05-14-2012 at 08:56 AM. Reason: your - possessive

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Heres another angle to think about.
    The picture shows a intake opening event and the flow around the valve.

    Humm what kind of spark plug is it?
    spark_plug.jpg

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    Heres another angle to think about.
    The picture shows a intake opening event and the flow around the valve.

    Humm what kind of spark plug is it?
    spark_plug.jpg
    So do you index your plugs Dan?

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    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter My location tekenaar's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    BTW, I made a simple fixture to remove the threads on these longer plugs. Used a thick scrap of steel and tapped it to match the plug threads, then chucked the spark plug in a hand drill whilst sanding the threads off with a small 2" disc grinder.

    Once that was done, I threw the plug in my drill press and used some 150 grit paper, 240 grit paper, and Scotchbrite to smooth things out. Total time: 3 minutes.
    Now THAT's what I call thinking outside the box!

    Now, to 'throw another log onto the fire', anyone tried any of Bosch's multi-electrode (2, 4) plugs, all of which were .750" thread reach, i.e. too long?

    Personally, I still use Bosch's non-resistor, copper-core standard heat-range plugs with modified ground electrode in all of mine . . .



    . . . honestly don't know if you can still buy them. Bought enough of them at 97 cents apiece in standard and one range colder years ago to last for my needs though.
    Last edited by tekenaar; 05-15-2012 at 05:15 PM.


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  17. #35
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    how about making a collar 1/4" long that threads on to plug, could be tapered to match plug if needed or add compression washer, add a little exhaust compound and have the plug tip in the right spot with no threads showing ?
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    hot vs cold?

    In what uses would someone use a hotter plug or a colder plug? What types of set-ups benefit a hot plug/cold plug? Will using a colder or hotter plug when its not called for cause any issues/damage?

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jayhawkjesse33 View Post
    In what uses would someone use a hotter plug or a colder plug? What types of set-ups benefit a hot plug/cold plug? Will using a colder or hotter plug when its not called for cause any issues/damage?
    If you are running a much more powerful engine than stock (very high compression and higher rpms), if you have a turbo, if you have a supercharger, or if you are running nitrous oxide...you need to run colder plugs. Otherwise you can literally melt the stock plugs.

    The down side to a colder plug on a not-so-high performance engine is that they can foul out fairly easily, especially during start up and with idling or puttering around town. Many race vehicles are started with hot plugs, run up to operating temperature, then shut off and colder plugs installed before a race.

    If you have a low compression engine that is seldom run hard, has a lot of mileage (worn out), and is primarily used in town (lots of stop and go), you can possibly go with hotter plugs than stock. A hotter plug will fire off easier in the cold, will tolerate being idled for long periods of time, works well with a weaker ignition, with a rich mixture, or with an oil burning engine. But a hotter plug should never be used for 'autobahn' type conditions.
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-14-2012 at 12:34 PM. Reason: more info
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescifiguy View Post

    So now I need a good quality copper plug that's a step or two cooler than stock. Can anyone decypher the charts and recommend an appropriate plug?
    One step is plenty. I use NGK BPR7HS plugs for 1.9/2.0 heads that need one step colder than stock (naturally aspirated, very high performance street or race engines)

    Worthy of mentioning is that not all plugs grade the same way...Bosch plugs get hotter as the number gets higher, but NGK plugs get colder as the number gets higher! A stock heat range NGK is BPR6HS.
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    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNotigan View Post
    All,
    Long ago I installed a Jacobs hi-energy ignition system in my 86 Fiero GT. The company recommended Copper Core plugs only and to experiment with the plug gap until the desired combination of light tan on porcelain along with smooth engine operation is achieved; being that the high voltage is going to waste if the factory plug gaps are used. To take advantage of the bright kernel of voltage that these ignition systems can deliver, the plug gap must be opened in .005 inch increments...
    I used to run the Jacobs in my supercharged Toyota pickup truck. I ran the plug gap at .055" with 9 psi of boost. No problem lighting the plugs off!
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post

    I'm going to grab the scope this week and snag a few waveforms
    that'll show the pressure fronts.
    Well I found out that I need better software and hardware to grab the info.
    Found a good average screen shot from the snapshots..well as good as I could get.

    Prerequisites warmed up engine
    Grabbed the snapshots after the cooling fan turned off stable idle.

    First up the AR52's thats too cold.
    Autolite_AR52.jpg
    Next was the standard copper cores.
    Autolite_63.jpg
    Then finally the single platinum's.
    Autolite_AP64.jpg

    Ain't this fun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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