Headlight Relays

[jvandyke]

Excuse the interruption but what is the difference between 87A and 87 "normal open vs. normal closed"?

[namba209 (R.I.P.)]

Excuse the interruption but what is the difference between 87A and 87m "normal open vs. normal closed"?

The way the relay is set up and how you wire it in makes the difference. Using the link to the relay contacts I put in the previous post you can see what the difference is. With no power actuating the switching of the relay, that is, no power to Pin 86, main source power comes in to Pin 30 and goes straight out through Pin 87A with nothing going through Pin 87. With the switching of the relay, that is putting power to Pin 86, the relay switches internally and source power comes in, again, to Pin 30, but, goes out through Pin 87 and disconnects Pin 87A. So, in relation to what this thread is about, Lo-beam lites would be connected to Pin 87A and when the dimmer switch is activated, power comes in to Pin 86, which switches the relay to disconnect the Lo-beams, and put power through Pin 87 and operate the Hi-beams.

On Willit? I did a slightly different hook-up with one relay. I needed power only to specific circuits during the start cycle, but needed those circuits plus others while the engine was running. The relay was used to power the start circuit coming out of Pin 30 with power coming in only in the start mode at Pin 86 and making the source power come in at Pin 87 and when I turned off the starter, source power was switched over, coming in to Pin 87A and out through Pin 30.

So basicly, the normaly closed means that, with no power to Pin 86, Pins 30 and 87A are electrically connected and Pin 87 is disconnected from Pin 30. With power to Pin 86, Pins 30 and 87 are electrically connected and Pin 87A is disconnected from Pin 30. Hope this answers your question.

[jvandyke]

Yes, it helps. I used a relay I had laying around to replace my headlight relay. That story is here. This story isn't mine so I'll go back over there.

[MICAH1]

Good Morning Ron,
Your opinion on a question, please. Since I am already set up for dual (remote) headlight relays, would it be okay to run the 12 white/yellow wire from the headlamp relay (at the fuse box) to both thirty (#30) pins for the high and low beams on the remote relays??

[namba209 (R.I.P.)]

Sure Thomas, that's where both beams get power from originally. You'll have to splice into it though, as it powers the headlight dimmer relay which is where you're getting the signal voltage to switch your remote relays. But the setup you have now shouldn't need it, if your power to Pin 30 on both remote relays is from the battery, which is where the power to the headlight relay comes from via one of the 4 studs in the center of the fuse panel. Thinking about your specific problem, I'm wondering if maybe your headlight relay isn't hanging up on the internal contacts that power the lights. It might be a plan to check for continuity between Pin 87 and 30/51 on the headlight relay, before you turn the key on. Also checkfor continuity at the dimmer relay, Pin 56 and Pin 56B. If there is no continuity at either one, both your original relays should be o.k. and that leaves your remote lo-beam relay suspect.

[MICAH1]

Well Ron, As they say at the Cape, we have lift off. All headlight, and relay problems are now solved!!! You were absolutely correct in suggesting that we bypass the battery feeds to the #30 pin on the remote headlight relays and energize those from the original equipment headlamp relay yellow/white wire at the #87 pin.

Seems that following my headlight diagram to feed the remote relay and energize them at their #30 pin would always send juice to the lights and never allow them to shut off. Even with a on/off switch. Two thumbs up, and much, much thanks to guiding me to this successful completion.

[namba209 (R.I.P.)]

Well, Thomas, I didn't do anything but read some schematics and attempt to draw some conclusions that would help. I'm still at a loss as to why the lo-beam lites came on with the source power coming from the battery to Pin 30. It doesn't make sense, unless there is an internal short between it and Pin 86. But if that was the case, the lo-beams would be on all the time. IDK, trons drive me crazy sometimes.

[MICAH1]

Ron, all I know is that taking away the direct battery feed to the remote headlight relay cleared my problem.

[Redskinsjbs]

Ok, I figure that this is a good a place as there can be to post this question. I have rewired my headlights with new relays in this configuration. Am I in any trouble of burning out the bulb because both the high and low beams could potentially be on?

TIA,

Jay Swift

[opelbits]

Shouildn't be a problem. They even make relays for GM's to turn on hi's and lo's at the same time.

But, in theory, if you are using the original hi-low beam wires to trigger the new relays, the hi's and low's will not be on at the same time.

When I did mine, I made sure the stock system worked like it should, but used the original headlight wires to trigger the new relays. Everything works just it did, but safer.

[Redskinsjbs]

Shouildn't be a problem. They even make relays for GM's to turn on hi's and lo's at the same time.

But, in theory, if you are using the original hi-low beam wires to trigger the new relays, the hi's and low's will not be on at the same time.

When I did mine, I made sure the stock system worked like it should, but used the original headlight wires to trigger the new relays. Everything works just it did, but safer.

Ahh, see, I didn't catch that part of the diagram. I have only two relays which are wired like . . . I guess that this calls for a sketch, eh?

[opelbits]

If I am reading this right, the red positive sign is battery source going to the two relays and the parking light switch, then you have the parking light switch turning on the low beams and an auxiliary switch turning on the hi beams. Which could both be independently turned on at the same time. The column switch would also turn on the hi beams.
Effectively, you have one switch for the low's and two for the hi's, correct?

Anyway, if you are worried about having both lights on at the same time (hi and low, not left and right!), then the simplest answer (to my non-thinking mind) is to add a third relay that will feed the switched control power (not the main power) to the low's or the hi's using the 87 and 87a terminals of the third relay. 87 would go to low's and 87a to highs. Use the column switch to operate the third relay thru terminals 85 and 86. You'd have to decide what switch to use to actually turn on the headlights, but you could eliminate having all the lights on at once. It would be the cost of a relay and rearranging the wires to achieve it.

The reason I did mine the way I did is that I am forgetful. I ALWAYS hook up my stereos to key-on circuits only and never try to 'remember' to turn off the radio. I figured if I learned to operate the lights the way God and Opel intended, then I would be sure to forget the second time I used them. it took more work, but I don't have to think about it (I prefer not to think....my wife will tell you that). Remember, 'peace of mind' means not having to use it.

[Redskinsjbs]

You read the diagram correctly!

I actually have the coil circuits wires to the ignition switch, but I thought that including that would just make the diagram more complicated. The main point of the diagram was to show that with the way that I have it wired, I could potentially have both the high beams and lows beams on at the same time.

I had to add the auxilary switch so that I could have the high beams stay on. The switch on the steering column is a momentary switch which normally operates a latching relay (Known as the dimmer relay in the wiring diagrams). Because I eliminated this relay from my circuits and I didn't feel like having to hold the steering column switch whenever I wanted high beams, I added a second switch. Techinically speaking, in Washington DC you are NEVER allowed to you your high beams, so I don't think that they even check for it. But I would rather have high beams for when I am on a country road, who knows how far from the nearest streetlight.

[MICAH1]

If I am reading this right, the red positive sign is battery source going to the two relays and the parking light switch, then you have the parking light switch turning on the low beams and an auxiliary switch turning on the hi beams. Which could both be independently turned on at the same time. The column switch would also turn on the hi beams.
Effectively, you have one switch for the low's and two for the hi's, correct?

Anyway, if you are worried about having both lights on at the same time (hi and low, not left and right!), then the simplest answer (to my non-thinking mind) is to add a third relay that will feed the switched control power (not the main power) to the low's or the hi's using the 87 and 87a terminals of the third relay. 87 would go to low's and 87a to highs. Use the column switch to operate the third relay thru terminals 85 and 86. You'd have to decide what switch to use to actually turn on the headlights, but you could eliminate having all the lights on at once. It would be the cost of a relay and rearranging the wires to achieve it.

Opelbits,
Are you suggesting a third relay to replace Jay's added auxiliary switch?? You are aware that the original headlamp dimmer relay, and headlamp relay were replaced with his new wiring setup??? Can you display a wiring diagram of your purposed setup for comparison???

[opelbits]

Effectively, I think so...



Right now, the parking switch turns on the low's and the aux switch turns on the hi's. Use the aux switch to operate a third relay and wire it up so that it will switch between hi and low, they will not be on at the same time. The parking light switch could energize both relays, but would not be the signal for turning on the low's, it would turn on the lights, period. So, parking light switch turns on lights, aux switch switches from low to hi and back.

At least, that is what my mind is telling me. This would prevent them being on at the same time and would only really require some rearrangement of wires plus the cost of a relay.

If there is something I am missing here, please tell me. I don't want to send someone on a fool's mission.

Diagram will have to wait til later...guests and ribs.....

[Redskinsjbs]

Ah, this makes absolute perfect sense, and one can even do what you are describing with only two relays, one for power and one which switches between a NO and an NC terminal to choose either the Highs or Lows.

The main reason that I haven't done what I described is that if I lose a relay, then I lose both lights, and that would not be good.

The ONLY reason I haven't done it the Opelbits described is that, for now, I'd rather keep the circuits (and install for that matter) as simple and clean as possible.

Tomorrow I will most likely be posting a bunch of pictures and maybe a video or two documenting the entire rewiring of my car. I'll try to remember to include a picture of the high beam switch.

[markandson]

Ah, this makes absolute perfect sense, and one can even do what you are describing with only two relays, one for power and one which switches between a NO and an NC terminal to choose either the Highs or Lows.

The main reason that I haven't done what I described is that if I lose a relay, then I lose both lights, and that would not be good.

The ONLY reason I haven't done it the Opelbits described is that, for now, I'd rather keep the circuits (and install for that matter) as simple and clean as possible.

Tomorrow I will most likely be posting a bunch of pictures and maybe a video or two documenting the entire rewiring of my car. I'll try to remember to include a picture of the high beam switch.

If you are going to use a relay to flop between highs and lows then it will have to be a relay that stays in its last position, not one that is spring loaded and has a consistent rest position when not energized. I am sure that they must exist but I can't say I have ever seen one. The relay would have to have an internal switch (to change polarity on the coil) as well to get it to flop back the other way when energized the second time. Why drive yourself nuts, why not use an original relay that latches and be done with it?

[Redskinsjbs]

If you are going to use a relay to flop between highs and lows then it will have to be a relay that stays in its last position, not one that is spring loaded and has a consistent rest position when not energized. I am sure that they must exist but I can't say I have ever seen one. The relay would have to have an internal switch (to change polarity on the coil) as well to get it to flop back the other way when energized the second time. Why drive yourself nuts, why not use an original relay that latches and be done with it?

I can't use the original relay only because I don't want to use the original relay. I will rarely use the high beams (It is illegal to use them where I live), so I figure that my 'workaround' of sorts will be alright. If not, I'll rewire for the original relay.

[opelbits]

This should be correct:

Okay, after several false starts, I think I have this right...maybe.

I've attached a diagram of how I think the relay system would work.

The diagram shows all switches in the 'off' position.

The idea with the three relays is to have the lo's and hi's on separate relays, if one fails, you still have some lights. Even if the headlight control relay fails (by sticking in Normally Open or Normally Closed positions), you should still get power to one set of beams or the other. If a relay fails completely and will not even flow power, then you have enough relays to swap around and maintain normal function of the system with lo-beams only.

Both headlight relays have the power out to the headlights coming off the NO terminal 87. This way, the unenergized headlight control relay is not supplying power to anything. It is only when the parking light switch is turned on that power goes thru the default NC terminal 87a out to the lo-beam and energizes it automatically turning them on, but no power is going to the hi-beam relay as it is on the NO terminal 87. If you then turn on the auxiliary switch, it energizes the headlight control relay, which deenergizes the lo-beam relay and energizes the hi-beam relay. Using the column switch (which is a momentary switch) has the same effect as the auxiliary switch but will obviously not remain on.

There is a simpler way to do this with just two relays, but if one fails, the other is affected. I personally like having back-ups and normal function.

If you guys can look over this diagram and let me know if I have anything out of sorts, I'd appreciate it. The only question I have at the moment is whether or not the parking light switch is described correctly. The first go-around I had the aux and column switches on the feed side of the relay, not on the ground side, I don't think the column switch will work that way!

EDIT: One thing I forgot...on the Auxiliary switch, I would either use a switch with an illuminated toggle/rocker or wire in an LED to show that your hi-beams are on. It's a minor thing, but you would see imediately that the hi-beams are on or off without having to flick the switch to make sure.

EDIT #2: Just a note about the drawing, I did this in Open Office.org 2.0. It is a fantastic free program that is MSWord compatible. It does everything MSWord does and more. It has a drawing program in it that makes it incredibly easy to do this kind of stuff, even has connecting line functions that automatically work around existing boxes and objects on your drawing which is just the thing for doing wiring and plumbing drawings. I can't say enough about it.

[Redskinsjbs]

Opelbits,

I completely understand what you have done and it really does solve the issue of having both lights on. . .

However, another objective I had when I rebuilt my electrical system was to divert as much amperage away from inside of the dash as possible. I don't want to rely on a 40 year old switch to be taking all of the amperage that a headlight requires.

Instead, I suggest this arrangement.

In it, I instead use one relay to supply the power and then each of the low and high beam relays 'switch' themselves on and off according to the high beam switches.

As you can see, the parking switch only has to provide the amperage to operate the coil in the 'Power' relay.

Each beam then has it's own relay, the Low beams being connected to 87a, or the normally closed circuit, and the High beams being connected to 87, or the normally open circuit.

Then, each of the 'Beam' relay coils is wired in parallel to both the auxiliary switch and the steering column switch, which are wired in parallel.

This arrangement allows for the same action as your arrangement and the stock wiring. The headlights will 'flip' between high and low. But, it diverts all major amperage away from switches which are in the passenger compartment and to the relays which are there to take the load in the first place.

I think that all of this talk is convincing me that I am being obtuse and that I should just add a third relay (Sorry Jeff, I still stand on my principle of 'Out with the old, in with the NEW NEW NEW'. Just kidding, I just hate the look of that massive Opel dimmer relay)