Lifter Tick or Timing Chain issues? You be the judge...

[metalvolks]

Hi -

I just recently purchased a slightly used 2.0E motor (which was purchased 5-10K miles ago from OGTS). Ever since installing it, it has this "tick" under (or around) the valve cover. It is a stock 2.0E with hydraulic lifters. I adjusted the lifters thinking that was the problem. I set them after the car was warm and did the zero lash thing and then turned them 3/4 of a turn. Put everything back and it seemed to do the trick.... for about 30 miles; it started ticking again. Then, I did them same thing again, only with the motor running this time (yes, I have tried both of ways) and same thing... went 30 miles doing great, then it started ticking. It almost never does it when the motor is cold, only when at operating temp and from idle to about 1500 RMPs. It's getting very annoying and I want to fix it for good.

I checked compression and sure enough all cylinders are between 158-160. Checked the lifters, they looked brand, brand new (no pitting or mushrooming). Timing and dwell is correct.

Also, i live in So Cal so I have to use 20-50W oil to keep it properly lubricated(my presure, when warm, is 1.5-2 bars at idle and 3.5-4 bars at speed.

What gives!? Did they not instal my lifters correctly? Are the locking nuts loosening themselves?

Listen to the audio clip... it's intermittent .

Paul

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by metalvolks Are the locking nuts loosening themselves?

This is the most likely culprit. Any freshening of the engine should include new rocker arm locknuts. They lose their tension with age.

Conversely, occasionally a hydraulic lifter just 'goes bad' and won't hold the oil pressure (bleeds down when the oil heats up and gets thinner).

But I'd check the rocker nuts first.

[metalvolks]

Thanks Bob. I will definitely do that. I think you said, in one of your older posts, that I can order Chevy locking rocker nuts that are better and cheaper?

Also, would nut backing itself off cause the lifter that "tick" intermittently? Wouldn't it just tick all of the time when warm thoughout all RPM ranges?

And... Bob, are you a believer in performing the adjustment with the motor running? I found it a big pain... oil burning on my exhaust and my block... can someone explain why this is the way the opelclub.com says to do this?

Paul

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by metalvolks Thanks Bob. I will definitely do that. I think you said, in one of your older posts, that I can order Chevy locking rocker nuts that are better and cheaper?

Specifically, they are the locknuts for the 2.8 litre Chevy V6, as they are a metric thread (10mm x 1.00 pitch). In some cases, you need to put a hardened washer under the locknut to ensure the threads don't bottom out. I use a 7/16" ID grade 8 washer available from any hardware store. This is usually only required when you have a reground aftermarket camshaft with a smaller base circle however, you probably won't need it.

Also, would nut backing itself off cause the lifter that "tick" intermittently? Wouldn't it just tick all of the time when warm thoughout all RPM ranges? Paul

Not necessarily. It might be losing just enough preload to cause a sporadic problem. Eventually they'll loosen enough and tick all the time however!

[metalvolks]

Thanks! I will get on this right away...thanks for the explaination. I don't know if you saw my last question, but here it is. What do you think?

Originally Posted by metalvolks And... Bob, are you a believer in performing the adjustment with the motor running? I found it a big pain... oil burning on my exhaust and my block... can someone explain why this is the way the opelclub.com says to do this?

Paul

[Crazy Harry]

If I recall correctly, it is standard procedure to adjust the lifters with the engine running for any engine with hydraulic lifters. You have to have the oil pressure built up inside the lifter while doing the adjustment. I've used a piece of cardboard or box board leaning in the head to stop the spray and deflect some of the oil back into the head.

Harold.

[GTJIM]

Opel specifically state that hydraulic lifters can be set cold - no need to run the motor. The pre-load on the internal spring in the lifter allows for any variations as the mechiniz warms up.

Sometimes, with older worn lifters, the 'doing it warm (and messy!)' will get a slightly quieter result but newish lifters should be able to self-adjust - that is what they are designed to do!

GM hydraulics like about .020" to .060" pre-load - that is why one turn on the locking nut is about right as 1.0mm pitch thread which moves the nut down .040" for each turn .. right in the middle of the pre-load specs.

[wrench459]

After listening to your motor.
It sounds like the lifter plunger or the check valve is bad.
From the audio clip it sounds like the problem is only at or near idle speed correct?

[metalvolks]

Originally Posted by wrench459 After listening to your motor. It sounds like the lifter plunger or the check valve is bad. From the audio clip it sounds like the problem is only at or near idle speed correct?

Yes, mostly at idle up to around 1500-1700 RPMs. The hard part for me is determining which lifter might be bad (if one is bad). Anyway to test a lifter outside of it's bore? I will also get new lock nuts just to be safe...

GTJim, that's make good sense to me (being that my lifters are virtually brand new.) I know this is an age old arguement, but any other thoughts on the hot vs. cold lifter adjustment?

Paul

[Bill Hoffmann]

I always do a cold static lifter adjustment per FSM, and then spray used motor oil all over myself and the engine compartment to get the same effect of a running adjustment. I like to cover my bases.

Seriously, just follow the FSM. "Zero" clearance can be determined using a thin (0.002" or so) feeler gauge. Close enough.

[Opelkurt]

Any chance of an exhaust leak between the head and manifold, or at the manifold to headpipe connection? I've had to re-torque manifold bolts after running-in a replacement engine. A cracked exhaust manifold can also make some pretty strange ticking noises that change with running temperature.

-Kurt

[newman27]

Originally Posted by Opelkurt Any chance of an exhaust leak between the haed and manifold, or at the manifold to headpipe connection? I've had to re-torque manifold bolts after running-in a replacement engine. A cracked exhaust manifold can also make some pretty strange ticking noises that change with running temperature. -Kurt

FWIW, I have this same ticking problem with my '99 Olds. The dealership tells me that the problem is caused by a cracked manifold as you indicate here. It'll cost too much to fix given the value of the car so I'm living with it...

[wrench459]

Another possibility is a broken valve spring.
Testing a lifter outside the bore... drill press with a container of oil to submerse the lifter in.

[metalvolks]

Well, I found an exhaust/intake leak (took care of that by having the exhaust/intake manifold flycut and now it seals great). Also, I replaced the rocker arm nuts with the Chevy V-6 nuts. Now the car runs better (not lean anymore), but the lifter noise is still there. It sounds like it is coming from cylinder #1 or #2 (by using a mechanics stethescope). Question: these are almost brand new lifters.... could it possibly be one of the lifters that is creating that noise? I took each lifter out and they look brand spanking new.... Like I said earlier.... the noise is VERY intermittent. The engine runs at idle for sometimes up to a minute or so with out the noise (but at 1000-1500 RPMS is seems to to to ALL the time when warm). Great oil pressure with 20-50W. Should I just replace those 4 front lifters? Also where do I buy new lifters for the 2.0? Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

Paul

[GTJIM]

Originally Posted by metalvolks ... Question: these are almost brand new lifters.... could it possibly be one of the lifters that is creating that noise? I took each lifter out and they look brand spanking new.... Like I said earlier.... the noise is VERY intermittant. ... Great oil pressure with 20-50W. Should I just replace those 4 front lifters? Also where do I buy new lifters for the 2.0? Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated! Paul

Paul, Replacing lifters can make things far worse as a brand new lifter on a just run in cam lobe generally causes rapid lobe wear. Got to put the original lifters back on exactly the lobe they cam from ... and have seated in on.

If you use new lifters you should use a new cam as well - particularly now the ZDDP anti-wear has been removed from most oils. Have a search for ZDDP as you must use the older specification oil that has this additive for the Opel flat tappet cam. The only oils that seem to still have the Zinc additive are 'Classic Car' oils - Brad Penn #1 (the green stuff) and 15-50 Valvoline.
OGTS do have a ZDDP additive that should be put into any low Zinc oil.

HTH

[grslightng02]

I had the very same problem on my 71 GT with Hydraulic lifters. My solution, I pulled the lifters and inspected them and found carbon buildup on the lower part of the lifters. I took some clean oil, and fine grade steel wool and rubbed them clean. I made sure I thoroughly cleaned all oil residue off, making sure there were no steel wool fibers left. I relubed the lifter with fresh oil, dropped them in and did a valve adjustment while the motor was cold.

I can't say any or all mechanics would agree with my methods, but I've never had that "sewing machine" ticking noise again!~

[metalvolks]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Paul, Replacing lifters can make things far worse as a brand new lifter on a just run in cam lobe generally causes rapid lobe wear. Got to put the original lifters back on exactly the lobe they cam from ... and have seated in on. If you use new lifters you should use a new cam as well - particularly now the ZDDP anti-wear has been removed from most oils. Have a search for ZDDP as you must use the older specification oil that has this additive for the Opel flat tappet cam. The only oils that seem to still have the Zinc additive are 'Classic Car' oils - Brad Penn #1 (the green stuff) and 15-50 Valvoline. OGTS do have a ZDDP additive that should be put into any low Zinc oil. HTH

Thanks Jim. Question: If I don't want to replace the cam, but want to fix the possible lifter issue, can I rebuild a few of the lifters? It seems a bit of a waste to me to throw out a perfectly good cam just because of a faulty lifter(s). I understand the importance of matching the lifter and the its respective cam lobe, however, do you think I would cause more than a little wear based on the fact that the engine only has, at max, 5,000 miles on it? Would assembly lube help to break in a new lifter better on a slighlty run in cam?

Sidenote: I've done the lifter adjustment as stated... do you think I should tighten them down a little more per the FSM? I have them at 3/4 turn past 0 lash.

Thanks for all your help so far... that noise is starting to get to me!