Exhaust advice for stock 72 GT
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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    Exhaust advice for stock 72 GT

    I have a stock 72 GT, now after reading through a lot of threads I'm not sure I made the right decision. I wanted to try to plan ahead for when the time comes to rebuild and probably go to the 2 liter from the stock 1.9. I see what apears to be the rule of thumb on most posts going to a 2" then 2 1/2" over the rear axle with a couple of resinstor tips for sound & appearance etc.. I can't afford to go with the header let alone the new 2" 0.D. Stainless exhaust Gil has that bolts on to the stock manifold (very tempting though). So I went the custom route and told the guy at the shop to give me 2 quotes, A) replace the existing muffler (stock exhaust) and add on the OEM resonator I just picked up used in pretty good condition. B) go 2" from the manifold back to the 2 1/2" over the axle etc. having stars in my eyes and a bit of Opelitice I was willing to part with the resonator if it made enough sense. This guy seemed pretty knowledgeable. I think what was an oversight by me is that in visiting the wealth of knowledge within this wonderful website I saw Very few who has the low compression stock 1.9 CIH looking to modify the exhaust. On top of that most people have installed headers and done so many engine mods that made things more difficult for me. All that being said the recommendation I got sounded like a good compromise for what I was picturing as moving up in the world jetting out my 32/36 DGV utilizing the larger exhaust etc.and being a layman I turned to the guy that had been doing exhaust work for 30 years and the other eye on my wallet, after listening to me run down the two options I think he tried to give me the best of both worlds. He suggested cutting in with the 2" after the wye where the 2 head pipes merge into one. I questioned him on that because it seemed to defeat the point of going up to the 2", he said it wouldn't make any noticeable difference. He also suggested going 2" all the way and using the stock resonator. I'd mentioned wanting the 2 1/2" up & over the rear axle etc. again he said it would be negligible with my application. So I slept on it and called Todd which is where I purchased the resonator. He said for my car 2" was too big and it would labor climbing up the RPM's slowly due to insufficient back pressure. I know Todd has been around the Opels for years and anyone who has played around with that many Opels was worthy of listening to, besides I had cold feet with the wye & resonator thing. I took my car in the next day and explained to him the conversation I'd had to go to the 1.75" and was changing my mind. He talked me back into the 2", I trusted him to execute the job, thinking he'd had enough information based on my concerns. He did a great job BTW, installed the bung for the air fuel ratio guage perfectly. The exhaust is tucked up neatly close to the chassis, using a round 2" muffler going 2" up & over the axle, the resonator placed perfectly. No excessive movement like the old exhaust but enough so it moves when the engine & tranny bob up & down. That's why I'm in peril right now. He really does do good work. He said I'd get enough back feed from the resonator (something didn't sound quite right with that) so off I drove. Todd was right though, I have DEFINITELY lost my low RPM torque, she barks like a dog down there, it does show more potential between 3000-5000 RPMS. I have yet to jet the carburetor well enough to get up to 6-7k or better. After reading more on the subject I see the elaborate sports cars use a smaller exhaust for the low RPM range and open up to a larger exhaust after the RPMs have climbed high enough to meet the demand. Even though that's not realistic for the Opel (for me) it got me thinking 1.75" from the wye to the muffler? Would leaving the 2" muffler in with the 1.75"head pipe defeat the purpose? Leave the 2" up & over the rear axle to reduce friction loss there Still sounds like a good idea? Keeping the resonator for sound & looks? Go with the 2" "U" and a couple of resonator tips? Keep it all at 1.75" to the resonator (my least favorite)? Can anyone weigh in and give me there opinion? Should I be patient and put up with the low end bogging while I have the low compression 1.9 and jet away to get some upper RPM improvements ? Remove the baffles in the OEM resonator to open it up more? Frankly guys I'm a little confused I'll take some pics, that makes any feedback a lot easier. I will probably never get more than 110-120 HP from a 2 liter and possibly a 38/38 Weber anyway right? Iv'e been driving this car since I baught it in 87' for street use only so maybe the 2" to 2.5" exhaust is more than I'd want if I'm watching the gas mileage and trying to get my RPMS to 6-7k once in a while just for kicks. I wanted to detail the story and I wanted to post it in case anyone else (there always is) can learn more from reading this if they are looking at an exhaust modification and see how instrumental it can be in getting what he or she may be looking for as the case may be. Thank you in advance for any feedback which I'm certainly open to. I'll try to get the pics up in the next few days.

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    Senior Contributor markandson's Avatar
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    Put in a butterfly "valve" right at the junction of the head pipe and your new 2" exhaust. Make it so that you can bolt it up tight with a through bolt through the 2" diameter and use washers so it won't leak any CO. Just like a pie plate air flow adjuster in an HVAC system. You will have control over the back pressure and then when you are ready you can open up the butterfly or take it out completely. Use heavy enough material so that it will not vibrate inside the pipe and drive you nuts.
    Jeff

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    2" main tube at the headpipe merge, 2" front muffler, 2" over axle, and a modified rear resonator is fine for a stock low compression engine. You may need to rejet the carb to compliment the added exhaust flow. That's most likely your low rpm hesitation.

    As far as it being 'too big', you must keep in mind it's 3/8" bigger than a stock GT system (1-5/8"), but only 1/8" bigger than a stock Manta (1-7/8") with the exact same engine.

    Lastly, you never want ANY back pressure in your exhaust system, that is an old wive's tale. However, you do need to maintain flow velocity, and avoid stagnation.

    I think you are okay the way you are, and it will support your later mods....higher compression, increase to 2.0 liter, etc.

    I've run a 2" exhaust on a bone stock engine, and also on a 2.0 liter engine with double the power of stock, and it did the trick for both.
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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    RB as usual is correct.
    Anything over one psi back-pressure is a performance killer in the upper rpm range.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Senior Member nickincrete's Avatar
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    I agree I would leave it as you have it, it will rev higher and you should gain mpg as well.
    I used to run 2 inch on 1.3 litre Mini so its definately not too big.
    Do what Bob suggested and maybe rejet slightly bigger

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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies, it's good to know I didn't go overboard on the sizing, as promised I took a lot of pics and uploaded some of them. Hindsight being 20/20 I wished I'd taken them on the rack at the muffler shop but didn't even think about it. Hope the quality is good enough, I don't know why a couple of them uploaded upside down, I'm not good enough yet at using this site to figure out how to rotate the uploaded photos. I measured the outside diameter of the piping using my digital caliper, it starts out tying into the wye at the split head pipe with a 2" O.D. (Pic#2) Then they transitioned to a 2" I.D. (Pic#1) the rest of the way using a round 2" "Wicked Flow" muffler (supposed to be close in design to a "Magniflow"). Finally, and here's my Remaining issue, before it ties into the resonator he reduced it as near as I can tell to a 1 3/4" O.D. which brings the I.D. Of the piping close enough to tie into the original 1 5/8" O.D.. 1 1/2" I.D. inlet to the resonator (pics 4&5). What I like about keeping this resonator is it has two 1 1/2" O.D. outlets on the resonator (my old ones were smaller) to the chrome tips but the baffles restrict the flow on the current resonator (see pic). I'm tempted to spend the $100 or whatever and have them open up the entry to the resonator to 2" & remove the baffles inside of the chrome tips. Is that what you meant R Bob by a modified stock resonator? Does the current smaller exhaust at that point aide my low end RPM's at all (higher velocity)? It seems to far downstream to then be reducing things, but not according to the muffler shop guy. Will it matter more, or be more critical to open up the resonator after I get the engine re done to the 2L? I like the sound it has right now, but not if it's costing me performance. One last question when I go to my AEM Wideband install & jetting out the 32/36 am I going to be shooting myself in the foot a bit here if I leave as is, with any back flow issues, or is all of this negligible until I upgrade the engine? I will obviously want to re jet here when done. I'll keep this thread alive until I have reached the resolution with my current low comp 1.9, then I'd like to start a new one in the fuel system archive with the jetting process when I get there. Great website for learning more about my GT BTW. You guys are great! Thanks.
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    Last edited by kwilford; 03-19-2017 at 12:10 AM. Reason: Rotated Photos

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Your W/B location looks to be about right 1.5-2 inches past merge point.

    CIH's like a tab bit more fuel.

    Let's say 900ft alt., 70 F ambient, 40% humidity, level ground cruise.
    You should be right at 14.0:1 AFR.
    Most dyno's has a aux. input for the AEM you'll just the cal. values from the one you got.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Mike's Opel Shop Site Supporter My location opellane's Avatar
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    Nice job with the Exhaust system Custom bent pipes...
    I like everything until you get to the rear resonator... To me that a restriction.. and you could over pressurize that Canister..and split the seam. If it were me I would cut off the rear chrome pipes and weld on Larger Ansa or Hooker Chrome Tail pipes tips w/ resonators inside o r Y into the new tips Let the baby breath and will also make your GT have a throaty Sound
    ( those stock tail pipes do No justice you will not like the sound ) JMHO

    Also found using these might be helpful

    2" OD Universal QuickFix Exhaust Oval Flange Repair Pipe Kit Gasket FX8015 | eBay
    MIKE
    ---------------------------------------------------
    1972 Opel GT,Citris Yellow 2.0L, Weber 38DGES
    1969 Opel GT Lt Blue Metallic 2.0L,Weber 38DGES
    1973 MGB, Red, Weber 38DG

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    One of the great things about a welded in bung....it's very easy to measure the back-pressure of the exhaust system.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    Excellent advice so far guys. Wrench 459 thank you for that suggestion , I'm going to add the back pressure tester to my shopping list. I really like numbers, you know right where your at. I didn't even know they had a separate tool for measuring back pressure. How many RPM's should I rev it to while testing for the 1 PSIG or less number? Within a week or so I should be able to get around to putting some tools on the exhaust and getting to work and seeing what's what, can't wait!

    BTW While I had my car on the rack at the muffler shop, they have a customer who lives or works nearby, they said he has all kinds of classic cars, limitless amounts of them and they're all buffed out to perfection. When he saw my GT he got more excited than they've ever seen him! He started telling them how you could do this & that to it and how you could get it to scream down the street etc.. Talking way over their heads. They said they have had all kinds of classic cars in there shop and the guy never gets excited. They couldn't believe how excited he was. The thought crossed my mind (the next day of course) that I should have gotten the guys number to see what kind of unrealistic price I could get for my car, JK, after owning it for 30 years it kinda goes beyond putting a price on it. It's always had its quirks but there's just something about it that makes it all worth it.
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    exhaust modification

    Hi Tom. 2" should be good for what you are doing R B is correct in what he suggests but is the interest of best bang for bucks from where you are now.
    Add a cherry bomb style muffler where the 1st muffler used to be. Make sure it is 2" straight thru not reducing inside the muffler.
    This will give a good sound and reduce resonance at different RPMs, and not effect flow.
    Second thing is, if the only thing changed was this exhaust system and you lost bottom end torque, if almost certainly means the mixture is now too lean and I would put a primary main jet 2 sizes bigger ( if 130 now use 140) and this will pick up to torque again.
    This will sort things out for minimal cost and you should be impressed with the results. You could then try the same on the secondary main jet but do 1 thing at a time center resonator first then prim jet.
    Happy Opeling
    I only now managed to see your pictures. You already have a center muffler all I can think is that it is not a glass packed muffler and it is not doing much. change it. try a porter or smithy's muffler and get rid of the restriction built into the tail pipes. you will not regret it.
    Last edited by gt alex; 03-18-2017 at 06:57 AM.
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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cub View Post
    Excellent advice so far guys. Wrench 459 thank you for that suggestion , I'm going to add the back pressure tester to my shopping list. I really like numbers, you know right where your at. I didn't even know they had a separate tool for measuring back pressure. How many RPM's should I rev it to while testing for the 1 PSIG or less number? Within a week or so I should be able to get around to putting some tools on the exhaust and getting to work and seeing what's what, can't wait!
    <1psi@WOT

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    Wow! 1 PSIG huh at WOT? That is a tall order everything I've read since allows 1 to 1.5 at idle and up to 3 at 2500? Other articles mention that the number can & should be higher around 3-5 I think if you're going WOT with a load (up hill). The cars being tested today have catalytic converters, that may be the reason why they allow for the higher numbers in these articles. I'll look to the 1 PSIG to be the goal then, thanks again 459. Let's see what happens when I guage the back pressure with what I have. I'll post up the numbers, starting as is. I don't think I'll go back to removing the brand new muffler yet at this point. Because of the short routing over the rear axle, putting the resonator tips on the resonator body going 2" in sounds like a good suggestion as well. I'll remove the baffles first if it's as easy as it looks, I can't see how that won't be necessary if I'm to come close to 1" at WOT. Someone else tried this similar project utilizing the resonator with the 2 or 2.5" in, removed baffles but unfortunately left off before posting the end result I think. I'll go back and do a re read. My intention is to follow through so that the next guy can hopefully learn from my stumbles and successes. Finally thanks for the confidence tip on the jetting, after I get the exhaust side done that's good to know my low end should be fine if not improved. Next Friday is the goal, with work & family, gotta fit this in on my Friday off.

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Zero to three psi is on most gauges.

    Here is mine in action.
    The needle got bent testing a really bad exhaust system.


    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    Looks like a quick test. I just ordered one due in by the 23rd. I like the one I ordered because it has a standard 1/4" thread (I think) for the guage end so I should be able to replace it if it is junk or fails & the dual spark plug threaded adapters for the bung end if I were to ever need the smaller one . I've read not to run the car long at all, it's just a quick test otherwise you'll start melting rubber etc. numbers to be posted soon. I'll probably do 3 tests with cool down periods in between. 1 at idle, 1 @ 2500 & one @ a quick WOT. Gotta admit that I'm not too optimistic with the resonator set up the way it is now, we'll see.

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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    I received the new exhaust back pressure tester just the other day. The scale starts at .5 and goes up to 15 PSIG. I removed the middle console & rubber boot for the easiest access to the bung mounted on the exhaust. I ran the guage hose through the opening
    So I was able to get both, the guage & tachometer in the same shot. Thank you for the idea Dan.
    All testing was done with no load on the engine in my garage.
    1)At idle I had no measurable back pressure.
    2)At 2500 + RPM no measurable back pressure
    3) At wide open throttle as I performed the test, (not sure how textbook) I showed 2 to 2.5 PSIG back pressure My 3rd or 4th push on the gas to WOT.
    See pics and YouTube links to view.
    Idle & 2500 RPM's
    https://youtu.be/7Izy_2lQw3A
    WOT
    https://youtu.be/E1c4mHu3HOs
    I removed the baffles in my resonator tips, I like the sound better and I feel like the exhaust can breathe a little better but the back pressure difference was immeasurable. Clearly once again Rally Bob's original posts to go 2.5" over the rear axle wye'd in to a couple of 2" Anza resonator tips or even open chrome tips will probably eliminate what I had measured. I'm more confident in the exhaust set up for what I have now. The numbers look good for street application at least where I'll be driving most of the time in the 5k or below range. I can't help but wonder what my numbers would be under engine loading at the same RPM's?
    I was too timid to drive it for any length of time due to overheating the rubber hose & fittings. I was able to purchase an exhaust back pressure testing gage and a decent quality air fuel ratio guage for the cost of a visit to the dyno shop, I wish I could afford both but not at this time anyway. I think I'm going to leave the exhaust as is until I upgrade the engine. I'd love to hear any feedback on the back feed difference under engine loads vs. just measuring as I did I sure would get longer WOT time, maybe I'll get bolder for curiosity's sake and try a quick road test if anyone has done that ? Thanks Dan for the suggestion of measuring my exhaust for back flow, I have a much clearer idea of what I have now. Finally, yes I was able to revive my lower RPM performance big time on the carburetor side. I'm going to start a separate thread in the fuel system section for that.
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    Senior Contributor markandson's Avatar
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    I do not understand why load would make any difference to back pressure in the exhaust system. It would seem to me that RPM, which determines volume of exhaust gases, is the only component required to create back pressure.
    Jeff

    '73 GT,5spd,Recaro,EDIS4 2.2 EFI MegaSqrt, Ali Flywhl w/S10 Clutch, Elec Fan, Roller Rockers, Venolia Pistons, 6 Cyl Intake w/ Custom Injection, 15" Wheels,F&R Sway Bars,2" Exhaust,1" Sport Spring,Koni Reds,Big Brakes,3:90 Gears & Gripper LSD,Rear Disks,Ali Radiator,Hse of Colors - Kandy Pagan Gold.
    123 WHP @ 6800 RPM

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by markandson View Post
    I do not understand why load would make any difference to back pressure in the exhaust system. It would seem to me that RPM, which determines volume of exhaust gases, is the only component required to create back pressure.
    Load certainly makes a difference. It's about throttle opening.

    You might only need to crack the throttle plate (s) an 1/8" or so to rev an engine to 5000 rpm sitting in neutral. But if you were in 3rd gear going up a steep hill, you would need full throttle opening most likely.

    Same rpms, but vastly different throttle opening, therefore big airflow difference.
    My Flickr photos.
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    Opeler The Cub's Avatar
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    That being said 1 PSIG seems like a lofty goal for WOT at 5k. What would a good number be for 5000 RPM's WOT? I'm sure there's a range, pass, fail, A+ meaning the best or lowest you'll probably see. Or should it be less than 1 PSIG? I put my foot to the floor but had to back right off, it didn't seem like I was getting consistent numbers trying for WOT in neutral. It did climb above 2 though.

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    0-2.5---Green
    2.5-3---Yellow
    >3---Red

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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