Distributor Timing

[flipper]

OK, I need some opel tuning experts!!!! My car is having a problem tuning that I or several mechanics have never been able to figure out. I am going to put the collective opel community to the challenge. My timing is WAAYY out according to the dot on the flywheel. When I tune it with the timing lite and the dot lines up, the distributor is almost all the way counterclockwise (to the left) and it runs really doggy. Oh, some specs first. weber carb into stock intake and exhaust, into stockpipe with front muffler removed and stock resignator/muffler in rear. the best way I have found to run it is with the distributor vaccum canister thingy facing almost straight to the rear of the car. any ideas on how to time thing?

[baz]

stop using a timing light would help
the ball is for static timing so when you use a light the dizzy is spinning and this throws it all out of kilter
set it with the ball on the pip and then mark the pully and some where on the block + theres a degree wheel in the pics somewhere use that or a protractor to set the advance mark on the block to the advance you want when running and you can use the light on that in the future
if you do a search for all my posts you will find a 1 a few weeks ago with scans of how to manuel set it

[namba209]

Well, if you didn't disconnect and plug the vacuum hose or hoses at the distributor the timing will be waaaaay off. If you mechs have a timing lite with the adjustable advance on it, you will be able to set the timing initially after making sure the points are adjusted correctly, either with a feeler gage or a dwell meter, then dial in the correct advance needed for good running. I do believe the vacuum can should be pointed to the rear of the car when the timing is correct, but I'll let others make that determination. It's been a long time since I had a 1.9 in my GT. HTH.

[Dmcbrass]

Sounds like the dwell is off. Make sure you are using a dwell meter that is reading correctly. You'd be surprised how much variation there can be between old dwell meters. Once the dwell is set, then set the timing with the vacuum advance disconnected and the idle rpm set low. (below 900)

[kwilford]

I respectfully disagree with Bax about the ball being for static timing. It's inconvenient as hell to use, so I DO agree with his suggestion to mark the crank pulley to use instead.

As for having to rotate the distributor to get the timing set, it sounds like the distributor drive is installed a tooth or two off the proper position on the crank shaft gear. It isn't critical, so long as the timing is set correctly (the ball should still line up with the mark with the light, even if you have to rotate the distributor to get the points and rotor in the correct position relative to the crank).

I have attached the procedures for setting the distributor timing (if you don't have a FSM). Sorry for the quality, but the 600 pixel limit restricts the image quality. If you can't see it very well, let me know and I will post the higher resolution photos to the gallery. HTH

[flipper]

oops, forgot to tell you I have the crane setup in the distributer. I installed it about 2 months ago, but the timing issue has been there for 10 years. I willtake a look at the distributer idea about the teeth being off next.

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by flipper oops, forgot to tell you I have the crane setup in the distributer. I installed it about 2 months ago, but the timing issue has been there for 10 years. I will take a look at the distributer idea about the teeth being off next.

Ignition "timing" is actually the moment (in relation to the crank position, and hence piston position) when the points open, causing the primary (12 volt) circuit side of the coil to open, collapsing the coil's magnetic field, which in turn creates the high voltage (20 to 40,000 volts) in the secondary side of the coil (the inner steel core). This high voltage then travels via the centre post on the distributor cap, to the rotor, and then to the appropriate outer post on the cap to the spark plug.

An electronic ignition system does exactly the same thing, albeit "electronically". That is, without a physical set of contacts; it's done with a "transistor" or similar electronic device, triggered by either a Hall Effect transducer (in the case of the Pertronix) or an optical trigger (in the case of the Crane).

The position of the distributor is fairly irrelevant; it's the position of whatever device is used to signal the opening of the coil's primary that sets the ignition timing (so long as the outer cap pole is approximately in position to the plug wire that is intended to be fired). But if the Crane optical trigger is off-set relative to the normal position of the points, then the distributor will have to be rotated to compensate.

If the distributor was off-set prior to the Crane installation, I would still guess it's the meshing of the teeth that is the culprit. Probably someone installed the distributor incorrectly 10 years ago, and simply rotated it to compensate.

But that doesn't explain why the engine doesn't run properly when timed with the timing ball; it is a direct determination of timing with respect to the crank position. So I am still puzzled....Let us know what you find

[ConreroGT]

I had a similair experience with my distributor timeing a long time ago when I was first getting into Opels. I was basically fed up w/ the mechanics and did one of the best troubleshooting things you can do. START OVER. I pulled the distributor shaft out, set the engine to fire at TDC for piston 1 and reinstalled the distributor so the rotor was at the rough 4 'oclock position (I was following the Opel Manual) so that I was pretty damn confident it was NOW set up the right way regardless of how it was set before. It finally fired right up. Timeing was also normal at this point too. I didn't have to go to the extremes to get it right. Just a little advance (counter clockwise) and it could be timed. I figured my distributor was 180 out.

Basically, if theres too much unknown, start over from a known "right way" from the beginning.

[Travis]

Originally Posted by kwilford when the points close, causing the primary (12 volt) side of the coil to be grounded out, collapsing the coil's magnetic field, which in turn creates the high voltage (20 to 40,000 volts) in the secondary side of the coil (the inner steel core).

Closing the points charges the magnetic field and opening the points will cause that field to collapse. The condenser actually causes it to collapse shortly after the points have opened, but that's beyond the scope here...

-Travis

[nobody]

On a Crane ignition it is very important to have the optics timed to the actual positoin of the rotor in relatoin to cap. If it's off then you will have problems timing it. The best way to tell is to take the cap off and position it on #1 TDC and align the marks on the distributor then rotate the top of the distributor shaft at the rotor. watch the trigger light on the control module to see when it triggers while under power. If it's an early one with no trigger led it can be done by when the coil actually sends spark so removal of the coil wire from the cap and using a spare spark plug is a good idea.

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by Travis Closing the points charges the magnetic field and opening the points will cause that field to collapse. The condenser actually causes it to collapse shortly after the points have opened, but that's beyond the scope here... -Travis

Uh, Yea, what Travis said (I had a Christmas Brain Fart!)

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by kwilford But that doesn't explain why the engine doesn't run properly when timed with the timing ball; it is a direct determination of timing with respect to the crank position. So I am still puzzled....Let us know what you find

Usually if the response is soggy when the ignition timing is set correctly it's an indication of the cam timing being retarded by a tooth or so. Advanced ignition timing is needed to compensate for low cylinder pressures. Surprisingly common.

[baronbors]

Originally Posted by flipper the best way I have found to run it is with the distributor vaccum canister thingy facing almost straight to the rear of the car.:

I have two vaccum canister thingys- one facing straight to the rear and one to the front. How come I have two and you only have one?

[GTJIM]

Texas Tom,
Earlier Opel distributors had two cans - a vacuum advance and a vacuum retard.
The next models had only one can - a vacuum advance
Then '75 Fuel Injection distributors had no can at all.

All to do with improving economy and modifying emissions .......

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Usually if the response is soggy when the ignition timing is set correctly it's an indication of the cam timing being retarded by a tooth or so. Advanced ignition timing is needed to compensate for low cylinder pressures. Surprisingly common.

So it could be BOTH an incorrectly installed distributor, AND an incorrectly timed cam. This might be a reason to follow ConreroGT's advice, and "start over". Or at least confirm both the cam timing and the distributor installation at the same time...

[baronbors]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Texas Tom, Earlier Opel distributors had two cans -

Can you identify how earlier? My 1.9L engine is from a Kadette- dipstick on the passenger side. Trying to figure out what year engine is in my 71 GT body

[RallyBob]

The '71-'74 distributors had a single cannister, but were using both a vacuum advance and retard (simply by pulling vacuum at either side of the diaphragm and from different manifold sources). The '75 distributors had a single cannister, but only had vacuum retard.

I am not sure what years had the dual cannisters...I have seen early style distributors (pre '71) with both single and dual cannisters. I can't really say what the cutoff date was.....anyone else know? My guess is '68 and '69 for the dual cannisters, and '70 with a single cannisters (but distinctly different from the later style distributors).

Bob

[GTJIM]

Originally Posted by baronbors Can you identify how earlier? My 1.9L engine is from a Kadette- dipstick on the passenger side. Trying to figure out what year engine is in my 71 GT body

'68-69 Kadetts with 1.5L & 1.9L motors have listings for both vacuum advance AND vacuum retard units - to engine No. 19S- 362167

The Kadett 1.9L motors from 69-70 ( from engine # 19S-362168 ) are listed as those with the both vacuum advance and vacuum retard canister
The distributor number fitted with the "dual vac. box" is listed as Bosch No. 0231167024
GTs in 1970 are also listed as having this distributor from the same engine number.

It looks to me as the change back to single vacuum advance coincided with the change to the lower compression pistons in 1971.

What is your engine number & distributor number Tom?

[nobody]

Tom have you looked for a casting date?

[greensmurf20]

casting dates can be found behind the starter if you ever need to remove it, and a casting date for year can also be found on the pax side of the head in the lifter gally, so the valve cover must be taken off to see that number. another casting date will be on the timing chain cover near the fuel pump, i do not remember exactly where on the timing cover, but its very close to the fuel pump. casting dates just have last 2 digits of the year they were made.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by baronbors I have two vaccum canister thingys- one facing straight to the rear and one to the front. How come I have two and you only have one?

Hope this will make it clear . . . it's on my '69 Kadett, stock.

[baz]

Originally Posted by kwilford I respectfully disagree with Bax about the ball being for static timing. HTH

keith you know you dont have to worry if we disagree or be respectfull for that matter but like they say it the papers just get the name right and i'll be happy
i always thought it was for static timing though will have to go read up on that

[baronbors]

OK- here is what I found on the engine- #19S-0286575
Timing cover has a 68 on it
Passenger head stamp has 70 on it
The distributor number is # 0231167024
So my guess it that at some time or another the block was changed out to whatever the PO could find to stick in it along with the head and he just cobbeled it all together. Man - what a Frankenstein.
I was going to have the engine and head rebuilt next summer but with that old a block, I am wondering if I should just wait and get a 2.4L from Gil at OGTS. Any advice?

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by baz keith you know you dont have to worry if we disagree or be respectfull for that matter but like they say it the papers just get the name right and i'll be happy i always thought it was for static timing though will have to go read up on that

Oops, sorry baz :o