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Thread: 2.4 with an SSD and a 45DCOE

  1. #181
    Opeler
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    Flexible drive

    Hi
    very interesting ideas. Often carb shafts are not a straight shot from a linkage or shafts a offset on twin carb set ups.
    Me being a tight ass, I make my own cv joints. Its called a short length of re-enforced fuel line that slips over the shaft with screw clamps.
    Just use a piece each end of the shaft.
    Simple principle just grab some hose and twist it, when one end turns the other end turns the same amount, and short lengths can deliver quite a bit of torque.

    Gordon you can even dress it with stainless hose braid,

    Alex
    Last edited by tekenaar; 1 Week Ago at 09:49 AM. Reason: screw claps
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  3. #182
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Ha! Ha!

    Rubber hose universal joints?


    Wah! Ha! Ha! Ha!


    I've done that!


    A bunch of times!


    Wah! Ha! Ha! Ha!




    Kwilford's idea of the flex thingy is a similar idea.




    I'm not locked in to my design, I'll change it in a second if a better idea comes along. I just used parts I had on hand. The turnbuckle and ball lever are from my Mangoletsi.

  4. #183
    Cunning Linguist Site Supporter My location tekenaar's Avatar
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    Thinking outside the box . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I pondered my dilemma last night and got to work this morning on an idea using the oem linkage that should work....in principal. I took a bunch of measurements and then designed and made a mock up of what I have in mind. I boiled the situation down to a few generalizations. I have two rotating shafts: The linkage and the carb throttle. I need one shaft to turn the other shaft the same amount of rotation(about 90*). The ends of the shafts are 2"-3" apart laterally. One shaft is at a 15* angle in relation to the other one. This angle is too extreme for the linkage's swiveling ball joints to handle, they can only handle 10* or less. The linkage lined up pretty good on the Midikit manifold with only 5* disparities in perpendicularity and the oem linkage was just the right length and the whole system worked well. The Steinmetz was not designed to use the oem linkage at all. On the Steinmetz the linkage is 1" too short to reach the throttle ball comfortably and wants to pull off of it. The 15* angle difference binds the linkage and causes all sorts of other problems. The position of the vacuum port on the Steinmetz will interfere with any attempt at running the linkage straight to the carb throttle. If the linkage came straight from the firewall and was tilted down a bit, it can easily pass under the vacuum port with room to spare and totally eliminate the vacuum port problem. Rods and levers and linkage are 1930's/40's technology. I hate using bicycle cables to operate my car's devices.

    So, with those observations, I thought: How would I deal with this sort of problem on the machines at my job? Gears/pulleys and chains/belts, of course. The same way this sort of situation is dealt with in your engine, transmission, and differential. Because of the high heat situation in the carb area, I decided to rule out belts and pulleys right from the start. So that leaves gears and chains. The machines I work on every day have several devices that use very small chains and gears that are about 1/3 the size of bicycle chains and gears and I have a number of fixed and idling gears to choose from.

    So my idea is essentially this: Fix a gear to the carb's throttle shaft. Create a bracket to hold an idling(free spinning) gear in the same plane as the gear on the throttle(the 15* angle issue) and position it 2"-3" away from the throttle's gear. Connect the 2 gears with a chain. Adapt the linkage to rotate the idling gear, which would move the chain, which would rotate the throttle. That's it. The same way a bicycle works. Think of the linkage and idling gear as your pedals and crank and think of your rear wheel and the gear fixed to it as the throttle.

    I whipped up a mock up using the carb's mounting bolts to the intake as my anchor point for the idling gear's mounting bracket. My mock up is just a proof of concept, I'll make a stronger bracket later. I don't have any gears in the house, so I used washers to simulate the gears. Unlike the pictures below, I will weld the throttle's ball end to the idling gear, along with the L-bracket that the linkage roll pin pushes at to rotate it. The throttle will just have a gear fixed to it. A chain will connect the two gears. I'll gather some gears and chain from work and I'll work on cobbling it all together. Here's a sequence of pics I took as I worked things out:



    Attachment 306746 Attachment 306754 Attachment 306762 Attachment 306770 Attachment 306778 Attachment 306786Attachment 306794 Attachment 306802 Attachment 306810
    . . . for just a moment in reference to, and using your second photo, I believe you'll find that the DCOE throttle shaft ball will easily functionally accept the 15˚ offset of the linkage directly as shown in my altered copy of your photo below. No need to modify anything except the carb's slotted throttle arm behind the throttle shaft ball! HTH

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by tekenaar; 1 Week Ago at 07:41 PM.
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  6. #184
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Thanks for your thoughts Otto!

    I think maybe my picture misled you. I didn't place the linkage rod at the true skewed angle it's actually at in the car. The angle of the "fork" wasn't the issue with the linkage, although it's changing angle in relation to the linkage shaft as it rotated WAS an issue. The problem was that the linkage's socket for the throttle's hex/ball can only handle a 10* deviation from parallel or in-line with the throttle. Cocking the linkage shaft any more than 10* to the side would cause the socket to bind against the side of the ball's "neck". Then there's the horrible placement of the vacuum port on the manifold. It's directly level with the throttle/linkage and pointed right at the linkage rod with only a 2" gap or so. I would have had to use a 90* fitting at the port to divert the vacuum hose up or down in order to dodge the linkage. Additionally, the carb sits 1" farther forward than oem downdraft set ups and where my Midikit manifold placed the carb. I would need to pull the linkage 1" farther away from the firewall to stretch to reach the ball. This set the return spring on the linkage at a 45* angle and partially extended it and the spring kept wanting to pull the linkage off of the throttle ball.

    All of these factors were just too much when added all together. My little mod made all of those issues go away.


    I couldn't wait for tomorrow and I really wanted to see if my mod solved all of the issues, so I did a test install. This revealed a flaw in the shape of my mounting bracket, so I redrilled some holes and tweaked it's angle and reinstalled. The adjustments worked and the whole solid linkage system now works with no binds and full range of motion and throttle actuation and return is as it should be. More fine tuning tomorrow. I have to completely redo my vacuum hose set up and redo it all from scratch. I have to tap into it for my auto tranny's modulator and there's a tiny tap into it for my dash's vacuum gauge........all need to be relocated and the vacuum hose lengthened to reach the farther away vacuum port.

    I ordered shorter velocity stacks/air horns today and I'm still waiting for my MSD cover to come back from the chromers, so this project won't be finished and testable until those things arrive. Hopefully I'll have this all wrapped up by next weekend. Here's my progress so far.......:


    Install Begins (1).jpg Install Begins (2).jpg
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  7. #185
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    The little voice is saying

    Sequential Fuel Injection
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    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

  8. #186
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I gathered a bunch of small pulleys and gears from work. My choices led me in another direction. I decided to revisit the concept of levers and connecting rods that I maligned earlier. I came up with a concept that will work. I don't feel like(have the time right now) describing all my thought processes, so I'll let the pics show how the idea evolved:

    Attachment 307106 Attachment 307114 Attachment 307122 Attachment 307130 Attachment 307138 Attachment 307146 Attachment 307154 Attachment 307162 Attachment 307170 Attachment 307178
    So, I went into detail a bit when replying to Otto's post as to why I chose to go with a remotely placed, secondary, pivot and rod set up instead of the previously suggested flexible shaft, rubber hose, or U-joint concepts. I didn't want to go too off-script with this mod and make something using a concept and parts not commonly used in automotive applications. So I went with the common way of transferring rotational motion between two offset shafts. However, I'm not happy that I had to weld the lever and fork to my bearing roller, drill out the center, and come up with my(rather clever) idea of putting the pivot ball on the end of the mounting bolt that holds my little device to it's bracket. I should have been able to find some sort of off-the-shelf combination of carb linkage parts to make a remote pivot, but I couldn't find the right combo of stuff that set the lever and fork at the angle I needed, plus combined the pivot ball. That pivot ball was the booger, I couldn't find hardly any bolt-on pivots and none that had a central ball pivot. I'm not sure how well my sealed bearing roller will handle engine heat. It has rubber-ish seals that may melt away. You don't see too many ball bearing concepts out there in use for carb linkage. Mostly bronze/brass bushings are used as the "bearing". There must be a reason for this. The side draft carb, however, has similar style "un-sealed" bearings on it's throttle shaft with no rubber-ish seals, so bearings in pivots aren't all that far-fetched.

    I'm open to other options if someone could find an off-the-shelf pivot ball/lever/fork combo with bushings or bearings that would replace what I made.

  9. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    So, I went into detail a bit when replying to Otto's post as to why I chose to go with a remotely placed, secondary, pivot and rod set up instead of the previously suggested flexible shaft, rubber hose, or U-joint concepts. I didn't want to go too off-script with this mod and make something using a concept and parts not commonly used in automotive applications. So I went with the common way of transferring rotational motion between two offset shafts. However, I'm not happy that I had to weld the lever and fork to my bearing roller, drill out the center, and come up with my(rather clever) idea of putting the pivot ball on the end of the mounting bolt that holds my little device to it's bracket. I should have been able to find some sort of off-the-shelf combination of carb linkage parts to make a remote pivot, but I couldn't find the right combo of stuff that set the lever and fork at the angle I needed, plus combined the pivot ball. That pivot ball was the booger, I couldn't find hardly any bolt-on pivots and none that had a central ball pivot. I'm not sure how well my sealed bearing roller will handle engine heat. It has rubber-ish seals that may melt away. You don't see too many ball bearing concepts out there in use for carb linkage. Mostly bronze/brass bushings are used as the "bearing". There must be a reason for this. The side draft carb, however, has similar style "un-sealed" bearings on it's throttle shaft with no rubber-ish seals, so bearings in pivots aren't all that far-fetched.

    I'm open to other options if someone could find an off-the-shelf pivot ball/lever/fork combo with bushings or bearings that would replace what I made.
    Maybe just a ceramic bearing or hybrid (steel race and ceramic balls) would do a better job as a lot don't have seals?

    Ceramic Bearings

    Doug

  10. #188
    2000 Post Club Site Supporter My location P.J. Romano's Avatar
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    I like U-joint solution, clean and simple. McMaster has those U-joints:
    https://www.mcmaster.com/#u-joints/=177k3av
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    Old racers never die. They just go bench racing.

  11. #189
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I installed the Steinmetz with my linkage adapter today. I adjusted until the linkage and gas pedal all worked perfectly, then I re-routed my hoses. I can't start and test everything until some shorter air horns and an ignition part come in the mail. Here are couple pics to look at:


    IMG_4954.jpg IMG_4955.jpg

  12. #190
    No....its not a Buick.... My location yellaopelgt's Avatar
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    So how much does all the linkage cost for the midi-kit set up? I'm needing to gather parts for this operation and it's the last of the pieces I need. I have all the original parts. Also using a 45 Weber.
    What ...we got here...is........failure......................... to communicate....
    Some men,you just cant reach...so you get what we had here last week...which is the way he wants it.
    Well, he gets it...I dont like it, any more than you men...


  13. #191
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yellaopelgt View Post
    So how much does all the linkage cost for the midi-kit set up? I'm needing to gather parts for this operation and it's the last of the pieces I need. I have all the original parts. Also using a 45 Weber.
    They're 49 Euro from Splendid:

    Opel GT Gasgestänge MidiKit

    Check with OGTS first to see if they have it, though.

    They're stainless and adjustable so that you can set the return spring strength and the position of the roll pin in relation to the "fork". The new pivot bracket they come with is really sweet and swivels.


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  14. #192
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Shorter air horns arrived. Installed them and hooked up the pcv function to the filter screen in a different way:



    Shorter air horns and pcv hooked up.jpg
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 1 Week Ago at 07:17 AM.

  15. #193
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Schitt.

    I just called the chromers and they're telling me it might be another 2 weeks before they finish and send my ignition cover. Man, that's going to cut it close for Carlisle. Yeah, I could put it on and supposedly start test driving, but if the carb's previous jetting doesn't get along with the new manifold, I won't have time to get the car dyno tuned again before the show. I wish I had a spare MSD cover, so I could work out any glitches NOW.



  16. #194
    Tennessean Site Supporter My location hrcollinsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Schitt.

    I just called the chromers and they're telling me it might be another 2 weeks before they finish and send my ignition cover. Man, that's going to cut it close for Carlisle. Yeah, I could put it on and supposedly start test driving, but if the carb's previous jetting doesn't get along with the new manifold, I won't have time to get the car dyno tuned again before the show. I wish I had a spare MSD cover, so I could work out any glitches NOW.


    Tell Sam you need it yesterday.

    Harold
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  17. #195
    No....its not a Buick.... My location yellaopelgt's Avatar
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    At what point does to short of air horns start to affect performance? Is there a general rule of short vs. long?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    What ...we got here...is........failure......................... to communicate....
    Some men,you just cant reach...so you get what we had here last week...which is the way he wants it.
    Well, he gets it...I dont like it, any more than you men...


  18. #196
    No....its not a Buick.... My location yellaopelgt's Avatar
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    Upon further research, I've learned that short horns apparently help in the top end rpm range and long horns help in the low end. While this is good to know, the amount of "true" help is very narrow (600-800 rpm) buried in the power band.
    Interesting read....
    The Misunderstood Velocity Stack - Shoptalkforums.com
    What ...we got here...is........failure......................... to communicate....
    Some men,you just cant reach...so you get what we had here last week...which is the way he wants it.
    Well, he gets it...I dont like it, any more than you men...


  19. #197
    2000 Post Club norbertone.gt371's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Schitt.

    I just called the chromers and they're telling me it might be another 2 weeks before they finish and send my ignition cover. Man, that's going to cut it close for Carlisle. Yeah, I could put it on and supposedly start test driving, but if the carb's previous jetting doesn't get along with the new manifold, I won't have time to get the car dyno tuned again before the show. I wish I had a spare MSD cover, so I could work out any glitches NOW.


    Ha ha
    So you can win the broken belt trophy this year

  20. #198
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Yeah. Basically, at low rpm air entering the carb is moving slowly and may be coming from all directions, which might cause turbulence. The longer air horns get the air focussed in a straight line with less turbulence and they're slightly cone shaped to slightly compress the air. I guess at high rpm air is moving so quickly these things aren't necessary and longer horns could possibly diminish performance?

    The only reason I got shorter horns was for clearance between the stack and the fender. I couldn't fit the carb's original 60mm ones onto the carb(or mount the carb with them already installed) and the breathing room between the horn and fender was like 1". The new ones are 40's. They're brushed aluminum(WTF!!!!?), the 60's were nice shiny stainless.

    Do you still have the heater box? If you do then it looks like the shorter horns shown in your pic are a good choice.


  21. #199
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by norbertone.gt371 View Post

    Ha! Ha!









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