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Thread: 2.4 with an SSD and a 45DCOE

  1. #21
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Yuk! Yuk!


    George, stick with a 1.9/2.0. I would have gone that route if "they" hadn't offered me the 2.4 for what was originally the same money and been perfectly happy till my dyin' day. Keep it simple(yet costly) and just call OGTS and have them send you a rebuilt 2.0 head and block at a cost of about $2500 plus shipping and any extra widgets you want on it. You'll need to swap over stuff like your timing cover, diz, etc. from your existing engine. Then pop a Weber 38 on it and ride off into the sunset.

    None of us, even me, has the patience or time to walk you through the process of getting a raised port 2.2/2.4 engine running. If you want to really save money and rebuild what you've got................please don't! None of us has the stomach for 20 newly started threads asking where you can get pistons and rings from.

    In case you haven't actually purchased anything from OGTS and gotten on their emailing list, they just sent out a 4th of July sales flyer that list Opel rebuild pistons and stuff. Don't even think about redoing your own head or having dorks at machine shops do it. Everyone who's gone that route recently has had some form of disappointment. $1000 will getcha a big valve, double spring, no cracks, Americanised 2.0 head done by the best people in the country to make one. Get one, put it on, and be done with it.


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    2000 Post Club GeorgeOpel's Avatar
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    What kind of HP would an OGTS 2.0 have? 9:1 pistons?
    These engines are good used ? Or rebuilt? Thx
    Last edited by GeorgeOpel; 07-01-2015 at 12:32 PM.

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Apparently, 90%(my guess) of used Opel cylinder heads have cracks in them, so chances are that 9 out of 10 unrebuilt Opel engines, including yours, have cracks in their head(like you! Har! Har! ). OGTS only rebuilds ones they find without cracks. And they put the big valves in'em.

    I just got done reading some stuff on a carb website and the guy flatly claimed that the most hp that you're likely to get out of ANY 2.0 liter engine is about 125hp. I guess that means without any funky stuff like turbos, fancy cams, etc.

    I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule.

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    2x stock HP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeOpel View Post
    2x stock HP.
    That should be 2x 1.9 stock HP I believe the 2.0/2.2/2.4's would be less then 2x HP @ 125
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I just got done reading some stuff on a carb website and the guy flatly claimed that the most hp that you're likely to get out of ANY 2.0 liter engine is about 125hp. I guess that means without any funky stuff like turbos, fancy cams, etc.

    I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule.
    Assuming you stick with a single downdraft carb that's about right, if not I'd like to read that article
    "I hate RallyBob"


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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I see that it was I who misquoted what I had read yesterday. The guy's actual quote was: "A 4 cylinder 2.0 with a 32/36 is only going to make about 120-125 HP max, so don't expect miracles." Which seems to be what you're saying, Goy.

    Here's the page, the quote is in step 6 of the first section:

    Weber Carburetors Carbs 40 DCOE 45 DCOE 32/36 32/34 Jeep. Top-End Performance 818 764-1901


    I think George means that he'd like to get TWO times the hp that his 72/73 60hp engine has.

    It's probably possible George, but you might have to add a redneck turbo(duct tape a hair dryer to your carb) and a redneck compression boost(duct tape nickels to your pistons) and maybe a redneck cam(once again, duct tape nickels to your cam lobes). Let's put it this way, if a high comp 1.9 put out 90hp, then a big valve 2.0 might put out 100-110 with downdraft carbing and normal everything else.
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 07-01-2015 at 04:34 PM.
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    The most I've ever gotten from a "Weberized" 2.0 liter street Opel engine was 155 hp with a single downdraft Weber. But that was a 38 DGAS, not a 32/36, and the carb was heavily modified. It had the venturies bored out from 27 mm to 31.5 mm, the throttle shafts were streamlined, the auxiliary venturies were streamlined, and the carb entry was radiused.

    With bigger carbs and better flowing intakes (plus associated airflow mods), more is possible. Another 2.0 liter (race use) made 165 hp with a 500 cfm Holley.

    I think 125 hp is a fairly safe limit for a 32/36, unless the carb is reworked for more airflow.

    However Formula Ford race cars make about 150 hp with a stock 32/36 Weber and essentially a blueprinted stock Ford engine. But any time you stick 30 racecars with identical 'spec' engines on a track, there's a lot of R & D that occurs to get every last possible bit of power out of them.
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    ggl
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    I think 125 hp is a fairly safe limit for a 32/36, unless the carb is reworked for more airflow.
    My first 2.0 made just shy of 120 hp from a 36/36, I was pretty proud of that accomplishment when I read that a FF at the time made around 135 on a modified 32/36

    A switch to dual 40's added another 10 hp at the top end, which was nice, but it widened the power band considerably and that was a wake up call for me

    That's when I stopped listening to the guy who ran the local shop who pushed go faster parts, he told me to stay from the DSD setup and claimed that was just for rally/race cars. As it turned out he didn't really know all that much, still doesn't actually
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggl View Post
    My first 2.0 made just shy of 120 hp from a 36/36, I was pretty proud of that accomplishment when I read that a FF at the time made around 135 on a modified 32/36

    A switch to dual 40's added another 10 hp at the top end, which was nice, but it widened the power band considerably and that was a wake up call for me

    That's when I stopped listening to the guy who ran the local shop who pushed go faster parts, he told me to stay from the DSD setup and claimed that was just for rally/race cars. As it turned out he didn't really know all that much, still doesn't actually

    ......and suddenly, my Midi-Kit single side draft manifold that I've been sitting on for a few years now looks............inadequate!


    Great discussion by all, really enjoying it. It almost sounds like the SSD's tortured pathways into the intake ports of the head creates a lot of issues in fuel flow. Jokingly, I bring up those screen mesh "carb mizers" that were touted as helping increase fuel mileage by "atomizing the fuel".....kind of wonder if there is any true benefit to something like that in my own Midi Kit. (I'm sure there are a few of us here who remember those things that were installed below the carburetor, back in the dark days of the 70's fuel spikes.......

    Goy, I like your description of the increased power band with the DSD's as a revelation for you.....hence the slap aside my head and that flushing of resources down the toilet!

  13. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeNotigan View Post
    Goy, I like your description of the increased power band with the DSD's as a revelation for you.....hence the slap aside my head and that flushing of resources down the toilet!
    Just to clarify Mike, that was compared to a downdraft 36/36 and not a SSD setup. As I stated earlier a friend of mine ran SSD on his mild 2.0 and was quite happy with it. I assume that the SSD setup means you don't have to cut into the heater box on your GT and if that's the case then you have weigh that against whatever performance you're giving up

    On my TR6 there's barely enough room for a triple DCOE setup and it's only possible using the shortest K&N filters, inner wheel well gets in the way, and there's no way I'd start cutting to make room unless I knew the end result would look good. If that was the case I might look for another carb solution ..... and then slap the Webers on anyways
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  14. #32
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    ....

    With bigger carbs and better flowing intakes (plus associated airflow mods), more is possible....
    Key words in this statement ... plus associated airflow mods.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

  15. #33
    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Okay, let's take a look at the air paths and air/fuel availability between dual side drafts with one barrel-one cylinder dedicated runners and a single side draft with a shared plenum-shared barrels set up with runners that can pretty much draw from the whole system. For this GT install, I have chosen an old pic of my assortment of 40 DCOE's attached to my shorty Irmscher intakes and my Midikit SSD intake:

    No Gordo lines:




    Gordo lines added showing the angles of the air flow and the added air/fuel availability of the SSD set up:




    The air would of course curve and flow more smoothly through both types of intakes, since they're rounded and flow contoured inside, than my straight lines show. What does it all mean? I'll let you guys tell me. I just posted these pics as a sort of answer to Mikey's question.




    Jetting the GTX

    Well, I found instructions and some common usage guidelines on the web at this pdf. link:

    http://www.classicrallyclub.com.au/d..._DVAndrews.pdf


    Using Bob's suggestion of 38 venturi's in a 45DCOE for my 2.4 liter engine size and the instructions and guide lines in the pdf. above, I came up with the following jetting set up:


    45DCOE jetting for a stock 2.4 according to the pdf.:

    With 38 venturis:
    Venturis = 38
    Mains = 150
    Airs = 200
    Idles = 60/65
    Idle Airs = F9 or F2
    Emulsions = F16

    With pdf. suggested 36 venturis:
    Venturis = 36
    Mains = 145
    Airs = 195
    Idles = 60/65
    Idle Airs = F9 or F2
    Emulsions = F16

    Well, fine and dandy, but then I cross-referenced with the jetting that PJ has established in his 2.7, with God-knows-what mods, and, well, his settings are somewhat off the beaten path suggested by Bob and the pdf. :

    PJ's dual side draft 45 DCOE on a 2.7 jetting:

    Venturis = 36
    Mains = 140
    Airs = 205
    Idles = F16
    Idle Airs = F9
    Emulsions = F16


    Okay all you smarty-pantses, NOW what do you suggest?
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 07-01-2015 at 09:10 PM.
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  16. #34
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Heavy tip-in throttle can be around .75 for a short period of time.
    (Edit) .7x14.7=10.29 AFR
    Then level off at .85
    (Edit) .85x14.7=12.5ish AFR
    At high rpm a slightly richer reading might be needed..say around .80.
    This is also very heavily dependant of fuel type and the ignition curve being used.
    Last edited by wrench459; 07-01-2015 at 08:32 PM.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Using Bob's suggestion of 38 venturi's in a 45DCOE for my 2.4 liter engine size and the instructions and guide lines in the pdf. above, I came up with the following jetting set up:


    45DCOE jetting for a stock 2.4 according to the pdf.:

    Venturis = 38
    Mains = 150
    Airs = 200
    Idles = 60/65
    Idle Airs = F9 or F2
    Emulsions = F16


    Well, fine and dandy, but then I cross-referenced with the jetting that PJ has established in his 2.7, with God-knows-what mods, and, well, his settings are somewhat off the beaten path suggested by Bob and the pdf. :

    PJ's dual side draft 45 DCOE on a 2.7 jetting:

    Venturis = 36
    Mains = 140
    Airs = 205
    Idles = F16
    Idle Airs = F9
    Emulsions = F16


    Okay all you smarty-pantses, NOW what do you suggest?
    PJ's engine is a slightly bored out 2.4....2461 cc's as I recall. Higher compression, bigger camshaft, head work....

    On top of that, you can't compare a SSD jetting requirement to a DSD jetting. Not gonna be the same. Your manifold essentially has a plenum, PJ's does not.
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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    Oh good! Bob has brought up the subject of the possible differences in jetting a dual vs. a single side draft set up.

    Since I have no facts to contribute, I bear the burden of asking the questions. So, Bob, did my single side draft set up coerce your thinking into choosing the 38 venturis for me, rather than what appears to be the suggested size of 36? Was this to compensate for the slightly more interrupted air/fuel path?

    There seems to be zero, zip, nada, ain't none, info or conjecture on the subject of jetting differences between identical carbs on a particular engine using two dual carbs vs. a single with a common plenum.

    I'm sure that any info that anyone could contribute on this subject would be fresh new knowledge for us and tasty reading.



    P.S. FYI: I did not follow the pdf's guidelines and chart when choosing the 38 venturi size, I used Bob's suggestion instead. I am of the belief that my plain ole 2.4 has peak power in the 5200-5400 rpm range and the chart in the pdf. would seem to indicate 36mm venturis for that range.
    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 07-01-2015 at 08:59 PM.

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    The last time that I know of.
    Your in heavy traffic and likes to manual shift the 180.
    Torque rules with street driven cars not to say that some H/P at the rear wheels is a hindrance.

    Yeah we could get into the wall wetting of the twisted sister SSD intake.
    Speaking of which I've got to take a leak ...
    Last edited by wrench459; 07-01-2015 at 09:45 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    Since I have no facts to contribute, I bear the burden of asking the questions. So, Bob, did my single side draft set up coerce your thinking into choosing the 38 venturis for me, rather than what appears to be the suggested size of 36? Was this to compensate for the slightly more interrupted air/fuel path?

    There seems to be zero, zip, nada, ain't none, info or conjecture on the subject of jetting differences between identical carbs on a particular engine using two dual carbs vs. a single with a common plenum.

    I'm sure that any info that anyone could contribute on this subject would be fresh new knowledge for us and tasty reading.



    P.S. FYI: I did not follow the pdf's guidelines and chart when choosing the 38 venturi size, I used Bob's suggestion instead. I am of the belief that my plain ole 2.4 has peak power in the 5200-5400 rpm range and the chart in the pdf. would seem to indicate 36mm venturis for that range.
    Actually, with a single sidedraft on a stock 2.4, I'd recommend a 48 DCOE with a 42 mm venturi. I base this on other known SSD combos I've seen. Venturi and carb size both need to be larger than a comparable DSD setup. I've seen a single 45 DCOE with 36 mm venturies recommended for a 1.8 liter engine. It stands to reason a 2.4 could use more.

    My recommendation for your existing 45 DCOE would have been a 40 mm venturi if you ran a manual gearbox. But since you favor torque and you run an auto gearbox, 38 mm is a better choice.
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  21. #39
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    Gourdeaux, my heater box was removed beautifully by previous owner. Ill gladly adopt that chrome puppy so you can buy the 48.
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    3-2-1 Prepare for lift off!

    Wah-ha-ha-ha!

    Look at this video link Harold sent me!

    The guy pretty much has to lay on his back in that rocket ship he made!

    Exhaust out the roof!

    Wah-ha-ha-ha!

    Thanks Harold!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns18C0zFEKs

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