2.4 with an SSD and a 45DCOE - Page 5
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Thread: 2.4 with an SSD and a 45DCOE

  1. #81
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    See my comments in the GTX thread, something smells bad here! (IMHO of course).

    Doug

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    Although I'm completely and ecstatically happy with how my GT performs with it's RallyBob-modified Midikit common-plenum manifold, there's just one problem: Poor gas mileage. Something like 15-20mpg's appears to be what I'm getting. The carb has been dyno tuned and I presume it's close to as good as it's gonna get. The dyno dude had to go huge with the idle jetting(I think. Maybe the mains.), so that the car would transition smoothly from idle.

    So, I bought one of these to experiment with:


    IMG_4223.jpg IMG_4224.jpg


    It's one of those newly offered offset Steinmetz SSD manifolds made specifically for a GT from OGTS. I gather that this is an old design that Steinmetz is now offering again that is intended for 1.9/2.0 in-line ported engine. Unlike the Midikit intake manifold, the Steinmetz's runners seem to be HUGE compared to what I recall my Midikit looking like before Bob modified it for me. To me, they look even look a bit bigger than AFTER Bob hogged out my Midikit one. Also, the airflow path seems straighter and less convoluted on cylinders 3+4. It seems to be fairly equivalent to my Midikit's air path to cylinders 1+2.:


    IMG_4218.jpg IMG_4219.jpg


    I need to configure the mounting flange to the head for a raised-port 2.4 and increase the size of the ports by 30% to match the head, plus add support feet to the bottoms of the runners. Bob can't do this sort of work until he gets a shop set up, so I contacted Charlie to see if his machine shop could do the work. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that he had some chopped off 2.4 FI flanges and one RallyBob-made 2.4 adapter flange and that he thinks his machine shop can do the work! I've opted for the RallyBob flange because it eliminates any worries about getting the 1+2 and 3+4 ports aligned perfectly and, hopefully, any other mounting/aligning issues.
    Here's additional pics of the Steinmetz outlets with some white blocks to show where feet would have needed attachment, plus some pics of an FI manifold that has been welded to the RallyBob-made adaptor flange.:


    IMG_4225.jpg IMG_4226.jpg 2.4 Intake Flange by RallyBob 1.jpg 2.4 Intake Flange by RallyBob 2.jpg


    After inspection and test fitting it will then get sent out for chroming. Then begins the set up process. I'll initially just bolt my present 45DCOE set up to it and see how it performs. If okay, then I'll take the car to get dyno tuned again with an emphasis on fuel economy and see what I get. If no big improvement, then I may try putting one of my 40DCOE's on it and see how a slightly too small carb performs. Another trip to the dyno dude for that. It's all about the gas mileage, I'll sacrifice some horsepuppies if I can get an extra 5 miles per gallon. I want 25%-33% better gas mileage, ideally. The car gobbles gas at idle and I'd like to fix that.

    The Midikit has a common plenum design where all 4 cylinders draw their air from one chamber that both carb barrels feed into simultaneously. Exactly the way oem downdraft carbs feed into the stock Opel intake manifolds, except sideways. The Steinmetz manifold feeds cylinders 1+2 with barrel #1 and cylinders 3+4 with barrel #2. This should reduce "charge robbing" and be a more efficient set up. We'll see......


    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 11-06-2016 at 07:13 AM.

  4. #83
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    Here's a pic of my manifold, two chopped off 2.4 FI flanges, and the RallyBob 2.4 adapter flange in the foreground. The Steinmetz flanges will be chopped off and the manifold will be welded to the RallyBob flange. The assemblage will then have the runners ported, flowed, and blended into the flange and the welds cleaned up.


    WP_20161105_14_00_39_Rich.jpg

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    Gordo, I wouldn't figure on any great mileage increase from an intake manifold swap.

    Ultimately your mileage will depend on compression ratio (efficiency), ignition curve, air/fuel ratio, and your right foot.

    If you're jetted for best power, don't expect best mileage!

    Heavier wheels and tires hurt mileage.

    Aerodynamic inefficiencies hurt mileage.

    Automatic transmissions (old ones anyway) hurt mileage.

    Your stock GT was rated at 28 mph with a 4-speed, 1.9, and little skinny 13" tires.

    But your driving probably has the biggest impact on economy. My father has a 1999 Jaguar XJR. Supercharged 4.0 liter V8. My dad never got better than 15-17 mpg driving it. I took it to Carlisle one year, used the cruise control and kept my foot out of it, and averaged 22 mpg for the whole trip.
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    I agree. It's all really just me having a little fun trying out a new mod. Maybe putting a smaller 40DCOE carb on it would have a greater fuel economy effect. Maybe a ring job on my used engine would do the trick. Maybe lighter shoes or driving barefoot would prevent me from squashing the pedal.

    Having a second SSD manifold let's me try out how a smaller carb would perform generally. I've been curious about that for a while now. I wouldn't have to unbolt the 45DCOE from the Midikit, I could just swap out the whole assemblage, put on the new manifold with a 40DCOE, have it dyno tuned and see how that set up works.

    The car is extremely drivable and reliable in it's present form and I'd like to entertain the thought of driving out to Vegas for the GT 50th anniversary, but I'd like to squeeze some better mileage out of the car if I'm going to do that. I may find that I can indeed achieve much better mileage, but find that I have annoyingly lower engine power and performance. Well, that situation would give me two set ups I could use: A higher power/lower mpg set up for local driving and a lower power/higher mpg set up for long drives to Nationals events and such.

    I won't know until I try it!


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    Wow! Charlie's machine shop does fast, nice, work! It was all done in less than a week! Looks like a decent job, based on the pics of it that Chucky sent to me. Now it goes off to the chromers for additional clean up and a coat of shiny stuff.



    intake1-1.jpg intake1-2.jpg intake1-3.jpg intake2-1.jpg intake2-2.jpg intake2-3.jpg

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    Looks good Gordo! Like you said they were fast and did nice work.

    It's interesting to compare real world fuel economy numbers. Your combo gets 15 to 20 mpg and like you said your car runs well, nothing wrong with that . My moded 2l with a 4 speed gets 19 to 27 mpg with stock rims and tires. I've always been surprised and impressed with my performance vs fuel economy.
    Last edited by Viny Charb; 11-11-2016 at 08:07 PM.

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    When you're running DCOE style carbs your right foot becomes a very important part of your fuel economy because the acc pump(s) squirt "quite a bit" of fuel into the engine each and every time you depress it.

    On longer trips I had me dual 40 equipped Ascona up to around 25 mpg with a 4 speed and almost 130 hp

    My brother's Alfa Spider came from the factory with dual Solex 40's and he gets 30+ mpg but we suspect he's running a little lean

    It's def possible to run side drafts with decent economy, you just have to work a little harder to get there because those carbs don't act as a "buffer", you get what you ask for
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    How does it feel knowing you put the chrome shop owner's kids through college? Lol....
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    The Steinmetz SSD

    I thought I would start making a little progress with the install of the Steinmetz SSD this weekend. I bolted together the manifold and one of my spare side drafts and dusted off the oem-length carb linkage rod that came with my stainless linkage kit. I had to buy a second, shorter, adjustable, linkage rod for the Midikit manifold set up and that's what's on the car now. The Steinmetz manifold is offset and the carb ends up mounted slightly forward and towards the passenger side than where the Midikit placed the carb, so I figured that it would be likely that the oem-length linkage rod would now have to be used. They differ in length by about 1.5".

    Test fitting the Steinmetz SSD (1).jpg

    I'm a little worried that the non-adjustableness of the oem-length rod will give me trouble. I recall very much needing the adjustability of the short linkage rod to make my set up work well. Also, since the manifold's offset pushes the point where the rod meets the carb's throttle farther towards the passenger side, the rod will no longer be perpendicular to the firewall and will approach and attach to the carb at a slight-ish angle. I wanted to visualize all of this, so I took my assemblage out to the garage to see how it all looked:

    Test fitting the Steinmetz SSD (2).jpg Test fitting the Steinmetz SSD (3).jpg Test fitting the Steinmetz SSD (4).jpg Test fitting the Steinmetz SSD (5).jpg

    The area is too congested for me to get any better of an estimate of where things will end up, than my pictures show. The angle of the linkage to the carb doesn't seem like it will bind or mess with the carb function, there's enough play in the ball sockets, and the linkage kit features swiveling ball bearing pivots for the rods, so no binding at the linkage pivots is likely. Man, the carb seems to just barely dodge where the heater box's corner used to be and it puts the velocity stacks in that pocket where the heater hoses normally come out. My hoses come straight out of the firewall, so the hoses aren't an issue and my heater box has been removed, so no heater box clearance issues. Argh, the location of the brake booster vacuum port being on the rearward runner of the manifold is going to cause me to have to redo the length of the hose and my air/oil separator pcv function hoses will likely need to have their lengths and orientation changed.

    I'm not sure I feel like diving into this install right now in the depths of Winter. There's a number of variables and possible fitment challenges that might make the install drag on for weeks and the present cold weather won't make it much fun.

    Last edited by The Scifi Guy; 02-04-2017 at 01:14 PM.

  14. #92
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    have you thought about fitting a lambda sensor and gauge as well.
    You already have the hole in the 2.4 manifold to fit it.
    Then you will be able to see when its rich or lean and then when you want enable you to drive most efficiently and even help you fine tune the carb.
    looking good though
    wish i could afford to chrome everything on mine.

  15. #93
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    I was going to do that and I had bought the gauge, but then I learned that the oxy sensor in the exhaust must be powered to warm it up when running, otherwise it will melt. The side draft is such a stable set up that I have been told and have seen myself that it is rock solid and does not come out of adjustment and my car starts and runs the same every time. Once you are adjusted and jetted properly, you pretty much never have to touch your carburetor again. Also, the reinforced-mounting of my single side draft manifolds does not seem to let the bolts loosen and I do not think I will ever have to worry manifold/carb vacuum leaks. This also makes the car start/run/perform the same all the time.

    I also learned that I do not like to tune engines. It is no fun for me and it is torture for me to fiddle back and forth with jets and adjustments and testing/listening. I took the car to a side draft specialist with a dyno and had him jet and tune the engine. Some of the best money I have ever spent. No anger and frustration, I just took it to the tuner and one week later it was a perfect running and driving GT.

    My engine is used and I think I need to have the head's valve guides redone because I get a lot of soot from the exhaust at idle and people tell me they see smoke when I floor it. I would also like to get 3-5 more miles per gallon than I am getting. I think the common plenum design of my Midikit manifold may have required the tuner guy to make the car run a little too rich to achieve good transition from idle and no bog, so that is why I am trying out the semi-shared-plenum design on this Steinmetz manifold. The shape and size inside also looks like it will flow a little better. My plan is to put my present 45DCOE on the new manifold, not change any adjustments, and see how it runs. If as good or better, then I will put my smaller, chromed, 40DCOE on it and see if the increased air velocity at low rpms due to the smaller carb will allow a leaner idle setting and make for a little better gas mileage. I will have the tuner guy do final analyzing/jetting/tuning and see how it goes. I can't afford to redo the head this year, so maybe I will send it to the machine shop next Winter
    Last edited by hrcollinsjr; 02-05-2017 at 10:30 AM.

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    do you want to sell the gauge, if so im interested.
    I have the lambda probe and controller but havent sourced a gauge yet.
    have you a picture of it

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I returned the gauge and bought an old school vacuum gauge that very primitively tells me if I am driving in an economical fashion and very primitively tells me if a vacuum leak or a timing/spark/etc. problem is developing. Basically, you try to keep the needle in the middle pointing straight up. Mainly, it's just a gee whiz gadget with a needle that swings back and forth when you floor it and fills an empty spot on my dash. I have always had vacuum gauges mounted in my GT clock holes. Very useful on a stock carb'd Opel to get a warning that the manifold bolts at the head are starting to come loose and I need to give them a tweak.

    I got the gauges from Summit or maybe I got the A/F gauge from Dakota Digital. Summit has both digital and analog gauges, Dakota just has digital ones.


    Here is a link to Summit's Gauges page:

    https://www.summitracing.com/search/...rder=Ascending

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    I be realy curious if this manifold will work on a 2.4
    Never see this kind on street GT`s here
    For me ,the two barrels from the carb must have total different mixture jetting.

    But let´s go and learn me more from burning rings on pistons

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    I am a little worried also about the two different length runners after someone on Facebook said that these Steinmetz manifolds were "only prototypes". But then I ask "Why do they sell them if they do not work and have never been used by anyone?" Whether the Steinmetz is on a 1.9/2.0/2.2/2.4 should not make a difference, you just jet them differently. Maybe also my tuner man may need to jet each barrel a little differently.

    So, are you saying that you do not know of ANYONE who has put one of these manifolds on an Opel GT engine?


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    I am a little worried also about the two different length runners

    I have build a few manifolds over the years and in my experience best results are had when the intake path for each cyl. from the ram tube bell mouth to the valve has a volume the same as each cylinder. So each side can have a different ram tub length to sort it out, of course there is also ways compromise the real world I think the manifold looks good but it needs a balance tube just under the carb between each side for good idle quality 3/8" diam should do it, if it doesn't have one.
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    Could you give us a photographs example or a drawing of what you're talking about?


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    Quote Originally Posted by The Scifi Guy View Post
    I am a little worried also about the two different length runners after someone on Facebook said that these Steinmetz manifolds were "only prototypes". But then I ask "Why do they sell them if they do not work and have never been used by anyone?" Whether the Steinmetz is on a 1.9/2.0/2.2/2.4 should not make a difference, you just jet them differently. Maybe also my tuner man may need to jet each barrel a little differently.

    So, are you saying that you do not know of ANYONE who has put one of these manifolds on an Opel GT engine?

    No never see one or know one in a GT!
    First I see one of this style was in Lautertal European Meeting 2014.But not for sell, only as show up!
    Before I only know that there was a prototype!
    Why they sold this style??? Make Money
    Make no different with hot temperaturs in greater bore blocks
    Why we called the 2.5 and 2.7 Mantzel cih "Air Pump"?
    Most this engines have bores like a oval office in short time!

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