General Thoughts on a Bitter SC conversion

[wcelliot]

Sorry to monopolize the Bitter discussion, but it has been pretty quiet here (I've been a lurker for some time) and I'm excited about my new purchase (which is still enroute since I wanted a minimal rot car from the west coast.)

Now I've been in love with the Bitter since they were new (and nearly bought a used one in 1992, but the BMW dealer's service manager told me to never bring it back there for service... and that's kept me from seriously considering one all these years). Since then, of course the Bosch fuel injection (which was then "exotic") then is seen as very basic today, etc...

Anyway, I sold my E36 M3 last fall and pretty much drove my vintage cars around as daily drivers all summer... then got the itch to do a alloy block LSx-T56 six speed conversion to something, the LSx making a minimum of 300hp or so and the alloy block weighing the same or less than most smaller engines it would displace.

My initial thought was a Mercedes W111 coupe (my daily driver for the summer mainly being a '67 250SE with a 280SL engine and 4sp) or the slightly later 250C, but then I saw a Catera LS6 swap and got to thinking about the Opel badged Catera I had seen on a webpage... went back to look at it and bam! was immediately reminded of the Bitter... which is not only more capable and much more beautiful, but is actually available cheaper than either Mercedes option.

I went shopping and found a very solid one with a rebuilt 3.9 engine and factory sunroof... but alas an automatic. But the seller was very motivated and dropped the price low enough for me to buy the car.

So now I'm looking at three options:

1. Drive the car "as is" with the automatic

2. Spend about $1500 and convert it to a manual (being a BMW guy I have ready access to Getrag 265 gearboxes)

3. Spend about $5000-6000 and do a proper LS1/T56 conversion (retaining the modern fuel injection, etc). The weight of this drivetrain is likely less than the stock one, so handling would be unaffected or possibly even improved and the mileage possibly even better.

We all know these cars are not worth what they _should_ be so I don't see the value in keeping one stock just for stock's sake...

I'm questioning which would make the best driver for the money... so let me put it another way. If you were in the market for a Bitter, which of these cars would you more likely buy:

1. Stock 3.9 SC automatic for say $7000
2. Stock 3.9 SC 5 speed for say $8500
3. 350hp SC 6 speed for say $13,000

...and why?

I appreciate your thoughts!!!

Bill

[BQS4]

If it were me, I'd go for the 265 conversion, and the reason being is it's a rare combo. Even though all the Bitters are documented, to get the one with a manual tarns and 3.9 is more trouble than it's worth. But, since the $$$ is yours, the question you really have to ask yourself is, are you more money or HP conscience?

[wcelliot]

Frankly at the moment I don't have huge amounts of money throw at the car... so I guess I should have prased the question a little differently.

My concern would be spending the money/effort on the 265 swap then deciding I wanted to go with the full LSx swap (and there is no current LSx to Getrag 265 kit on the market). In that case I'd likely be better off keeping the car automatic until I could afford to do the whole swap.

But while I'm pretty confident I'd find the automatic version unsatisfactory to drive, I might find the performance of the manual version to not warrant the V8 transplant.

I guess I could always sell the "turnkey" 265 swap to defer some of my costs...

Still mostly thinking out loud at this point... but if my '67 250SE sells (in this market who knows?), I'd have funds to do the whole V8 swap if I decdied to...

Thanks!
Bill

[oldopelguy]

I wouldn't bother with the manual trans swap, even with the conversion to an LSx based motor. One thing the Bitter has in spades is refinement, and in every driving situation except all-out track use the manual trasmission would only detract from that.

Drive the car, see how you like it, then consider your swapping options.

[wcelliot]

I appreciate the feedback... I often hear similar opinions on both the Mercedes W111 and SL as well as cars like the Ferrari 400... and after driving numerous examples of each I still find the automatic transmission versions unsatisfying... recognizing of course that I'm in the extreme minority, over 90% of buyers of these cars choosing the clutchless option.

As to refinement... I also own a Bentley S2 and think it would be nearly the perfect large sedan... if it only had a manual transmission! ;-)

I accept it's matter of taste, but I have yet to drive an automatic car that I wouldn't like better with a manual 'box (though I do prefer automatic trucks...) ;-)

Thanks again!
Bill

[opelnut10]

Originally Posted by wcelliot I appreciate the feedback... I often hear similar opinions on both the Mercedes W111 and SL as well as cars like the Ferrari 400... and after driving numerous examples of each I still find the automatic transmission versions unsatisfying... recognizing of course that I'm in the extreme minority, over 90% of buyers of these cars choosing the clutchless option. As to refinement... I also own a Bentley S2 and think it would be nearly the perfect large sedan... if it only had a manual transmission! ;-) I accept it's matter of taste, but I have yet to drive an automatic car that I wouldn't like better with a manual 'box (though I do prefer automatic trucks...) ;-) Thanks again! Bill

Why not look into some of the racing automatic transmission suppliers and get a cost of making your transmission valve body into a manuel shift reverse pattern that way you can shift to your hearts content and not spend a bunch of money converting everything in the car over. If you decided to sell it later put a stock valve body back in it and no one will be the wiser.

[wcelliot]

You sound like a Porsche marketing guy! "Why a tiptronic is as good as a manual and even faster!" (very big grin)

Sorry, I'm a purist in that respect. If it has a torque convertor (or equivalent), it's still a slushbox and being able to select gears manually doesn't make it a manual... it might as well stay fully automatic.

Modern automatics are very good, very efficient, in many cases faster than the manual versions... and they still aren't very satisfying to drive... none of them are as engaging as a manual (even a poor manual like the old Mercedes have). I always feel as if I'm just along for the ride...

I don't even like the SMG or paddle shift gearboxes... even though I recognize they are direct drive manuals... I want a cutch pedal and a gear lever! ;-)

Bill

[opelnut10]

Originally Posted by wcelliot You sound like a Porsche marketing guy! "Why a tiptronic is as good as a manual and even faster!" (very big grin) Sorry, I'm a purist in that respect. If it has a torque convertor (or equivalent), it's still a slushbox and being able to select gears manually doesn't make it a manual... it might as well stay fully automatic. Modern automatics are very good, very efficient, in many cases faster than the manual versions... and they still aren't very satisfying to drive... none of them are as engaging as a manual (even a poor manual like the old Mercedes have). I always feel as if I'm just along for the ride... I don't even like the SMG or paddle shift gearboxes... even though I recognize they are direct drive manuals... I want a cutch pedal and a gear lever! ;-) Bill

Back in the dark ages before the advent of high stall converters, transbrakes, delay boxes, throttle stops and stutter chips we ran a tube chassis fuel altered (Nitro & alky wahoo!!!) We ran a 283 Chevrolet bored .060 to 301 CI with injectors (Hilborne) and 70 percent Nitro, behind that setup we ran a Clutch-Flight transmission (Chrysler 727 Torque Flight) with a Clutch adapted to it, used the cluutch to launch the car and only ran two gears (2nd & 3rd) once you left the line you shifted it just like and automatic, Very trick setup for 1965 and was a blast to drive.

[Gary]

Originally Posted by opelnut10 ... We ran a 283 Chevrolet bored .060 to 301 CI

Sigh... That was the first engine I built up. All built on a very tight budget. 14:1 Jahns pistons, Duntov 30/30 cam, tri-power. Put that engine in a '58 Chevy, '59 Chevy, '48 Ford (twice), 61 Chevy. I went through a lot of cars back then.