T-5 interest

oldopelguy · 07-25-2007

So, I went to my local machinist today with the blueprints for an adapter that'll bolt an S10 T-5 up to an Opel bell housing. I got an estimate that I'm happy with, and at a price I can afford to buy 10 of them right now. I'm not going to disclose said price until I have at least a couple in my hand and can verify correct operation, but I can comfortably say it will be less than 1/2 the cost of buying a Getrag 240, probably closer to 1/3rd.

How many of you would be interested in such an adapter? For the very short-term I might be able to spring for as many as 15, assuming they sell quickly, but I need to tell them by week's end if I need fewer than 10.

RallyBob · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by oldopelguy

So, I went to my local machinist today with the blueprints for an adapter that'll bolt an S10 T-5 up to an Opel bell housing. I got an estimate that I'm happy with, and at a price I can afford to buy 10 of them right now. I'm not going to disclose said price until I have at least a couple in my hand and can verify correct operation, but I can comfortably say it will be less than 1/2 the cost of buying a Getrag 240, probably closer to 1/3rd.

How many of you would be interested in such an adapter? For the very short-term I might be able to spring for as many as 15, assuming they sell quickly, but I need to tell them by week's end if I need fewer than 10.

I'm interested but only if it works on a 'Mustang' style T5. More importantly, does it also fit the newer Tremec 5-speeds?

I can't see using the S-10 trannys because the ratios are fairly horrible for performance applications and they're barely stronger than a Getrag 240, and all my plans are for a LOT more power than they can handle. I'm looking at World Class T5's minumum...

Bob

neuropel · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by RallyBob

I'm interested but only if it works on a 'Mustang' style T5. More importantly, does it also fit the newer Tremec 5-speeds?

I can't see using the S-10 trannys because the ratios are fairly horrible for performance applications and they're barely stronger than a Getrag 240, and all my plans are for a LOT more power than they can handle. I'm looking at World Class T5's minumum...

Bob

Bob,

How are you able to use the Mustang style? My understanding is that the shifter is WAY off for making those work. I'm in the same boat and have been assuming the T5 was THE way to go. Can the internals be swapped over into the S-10 housing or are they totally different beasts? I'm looking for something that can handle more torque and HP than a 240 as well.

Todd

oldopelguy · 07-25-2007

The Mustang and v-8 Chevy t-5s use a different bell housing bolt pattern, as well as a bigger input shaft. They also use a shifter that would be at your elbow in most Opels.

The s-10 and Camaro 4 and 6 cylinder T-5 uses the same bolt pattern as all the old Muncie and BW transmissions GM used in the 70's. That means this adapter would let one of those transmissions bolt up, assuming the input shaft can be made to work.

They also share the same input shaft dimensions with our Opels so whatever clutch you have will work, and the S10 also has a shifter far enough forward to be usable in an Opel.

From what I understand, all the internal parts from the Mustang or v-8 Chevy t-5s can be swapped into the s-10 case, so you should be able to upgrade one to the same strength levels, with the exception of the input shaft.

I also took in the blueprint for an Opel trans to Toyota G-series and M-series 5-speeds. That adapter would be about 40% more expensive, but would allow for a lot more options. Shifters on those are all by your elbow as well.

MantAscona · 07-25-2007

I have the exact same thoughts as Bob...........that's scary. When I first heard of this project I was assuming that it was for the Mustang/Tremec style T-5. I would like to see this happen if it will allow the use of the M/T version. As Bob mentioned, the available ratios are limited in the S-10 version and almost limitless in the M/T version. Definitely worth pursuing in my opinion as it would be the last gearbox you would ever have to buy for any Opel.

Duane

cherokee · 07-25-2007

In looking at trannys for my app, I decided on a T-5 there are just so many people out there playing with them. You can get one just about any way you would like.

Gforce offers off the shelf dogring guts for a T-5, In talking to them you can get them in what ever ratio you would like, not cheap but cheaper then Housman or a Tilton. Ka-Ching.

RallyBob · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by neuropel

Bob,

How are you able to use the Mustang style? My understanding is that the shifter is WAY off for making those work. I'm in the same boat and have been assuming the T5 was THE way to go. Can the internals be swapped over into the S-10 housing or are they totally different beasts? I'm looking for something that can handle more torque and HP than a 240 as well.

Todd

Since I don't really care about GT applications for myself, I was refering to a Manta/Ascona installation. Those shifters are already very far forward, and using a short throw shifter makes it worse. I want the shifter a lot further back for myself, I'll just modify the tranny tunnel. I hate having to reach!

neuropel · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by RallyBob

Since I don't really care about GT applications for myself, I was refering to a Manta/Ascona installation. Those shifters are already very far forward, and using a short throw shifter makes it worse. I want the shifter a lot further back for myself, I'll just modify the tranny tunnel. I hate having to reach!

Again, I'm in the same boat and the installation is for a Manta. The GT I have already has a getrag and will never see enough power to hurt it. So it sounds like there'd be enough room in the manta tranny tunnel to do that same trick you posted pics of a long time ago where you cut out a piece of the tunnel, turned it around, and welded it back in? As a founding member of Club BOG, I could certainly deal with the shifter being further back.

Todd K.

PS...for those wondering, Club BOG is short for Big Opel Guys

RallyBob · 07-25-2007

I just crawled around under a car with a Getrag 265 with a tape measure, and as near as I can tell, the T5 shifter location should be darn close to the location of an unmodified Getrag 265 shifter. So it will entail modifying the tunnel to accept the shifter set about 7" further back.

Now, if you go the Tremec 500 route, there is an aftermarket shifter available for that tranny that allows for a relocation 6.8" further forward. But the shifter is $300. And the tranny costs more too. For 300+/- hp, I'll stick with the T5 and mod the tunnel, but for the big HP engines the Tremec or a G-Force prepped T5 will be necessary.

So, as usual, you can't please everyone!

RallyBob · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by neuropel

As a founding member of Club BOG, I could certainly deal with the shifter being further back.

I hear you there, I always end up lowering the steering column, extending the steering wheel rearward, moving the shifter rearward, and moving the seat to the furthest back position whenever I get an Opel. Gotta have that comfort!

namba209 · 07-25-2007

Guys, a couple of things. First, almost all the T-5s you're referring to do not have mechanical speedo outputs, they're electrical, and I don't know if you can put a mechancial output on one just by changing the reluctor for a gear drive. Second, when I was concerned about this on Willit?'s T-5, I called Tremec and got hold of a guy that made up a Windows spreadsheet with all kinds of info in it, he accumulated over the years he was working with Borg-Warner before Tremec bought them out. It's a fairly large file, he e-mailed it to me, so I can do the same if anyone wants it. It has the part # and which cars they went in along with all the gear ratios, along with some oher info. Third, IIRC you can change the main housing, bellhousing, and tailshaft housings from one to another so you can put the shifter anywhere along the tailshaft housing, ie., front, middle, or at the rear. All you gotta do is figure which one goes where. I think, well I know for sure the S-10 T-5 shifter is right behind the main housing at the front of the tailshaft, the Camaro maybe be at the very rear and possibly the Ford is in the middle, IDK. If so, you could put a "World Class" Camaro tranny in a GT just by changing the input shaft and tailhousing, or get a 4.6L T-5 for an S-10, maybe, IDK what the input shaft size is on that. Another thing I just remembered, after 1988 all the T-5s had a hydraulic servo clutch setup, so if you wanted to use the Opel cable setup you'd have to get an 88 or older bellhousing.and take an inch off of the throw-out arm to fit in a GT, and make up a bracket for the clutch cable to anchor in. Just some hints from doing this on Willit?.

opeletti75 · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by oldopelguy

So, I went to my local machinist today with the blueprints for an adapter that'll bolt an S10 T-5 up to an Opel bell housing. I got an estimate that I'm happy with, and at a price I can afford to buy 10 of them right now. I'm not going to disclose said price until I have at least a couple in my hand and can verify correct operation, but I can comfortably say it will be less than 1/2 the cost of buying a Getrag 240, probably closer to 1/3rd.

How many of you would be interested in such an adapter? For the very short-term I might be able to spring for as many as 15, assuming they sell quickly, but I need to tell them by week's end if I need fewer than 10.

im am mike opeletti75

RallyBob · 07-25-2007

These might help.

neuropel · 07-25-2007

Originally Posted by namba209

Another thing I just remembered, after 1988 all the T-5s had a hydraulic servo clutch setup, so if you wanted to use the Opel cable setup you'd have to get an 88 or older bellhousing.and take an inch off of the throw-out arm to fit in a GT, and make up a bracket for the clutch cable to anchor in. Just some hints from doing this on Willit?.

I believe Stephen's adapter is to attach the T5 to the Opel bellhousing, so I'm assuming we'd use the same (original) clutch cable setup with no mods needed?

namba209 · 07-25-2007

That's what I get for not re-reading the original post. According to the info Bob loaded a bit ago, check column "B", there's 18mm difference in the input shaft length, and IDK if the pilot bearing dimensions are the same for each input shaft. Hopefully Stephen has all that figured out as to which tranny/input shaft will work with the adapter plate he's getting made. The difference beween the two S-10 trannies listed is only .2mm which shouldn't make a difference, but the others may not work. I'll just sit back and watch as this unfolds, so as not to throw any more garbage in the game.

neuropel · 07-25-2007

Ron, you're one of the few people who actually has one of these transmissions in an Opel, so chime in where ever you see fit. Your experience will hopefully come in handy for the rest of us!

Todd

oldopelguy · 07-25-2007

Guys, I'm not really shooting for a high performance upgrade here nearly as much as a low cost one. I can get the S10 t-5s, with a manual speedometer drive, for $150 pretty much anywhere, and in fact I have 3 or 4 right now already. I can't get a working Mustang world class t-5 for under $700, and believe me, I've been looking. By the time I got done adapting it, the Mustang unit would cost me the same or more than a Getrag, and if I'm going to spend that kind of dough I'm going for an ROD transmission.

So, for you guys looking for the ultimate performance upgrade, this particular adapter is probably not it. For someone looking to put an overdrive transmission in their Opel, and have the shifter come out pretty much where it's supposed to, use the stock or performance clutch they already spent good $ on, and not require a whole lot of butchery, this might be an option. The adapter plate I am having built should allow a T-10 or the like to bolt to the Opel bell housing, which would certainly handle any HP you throw at it but not be overdrive, so that might be a consideration if you really need hp handling ability.

I am going to have a few adapters made, looks now like maybe only a couple for myself, and while I'm at it I thought I would see if anyone else would be interested. I have no interest in debating the relative merits of transmissions I don't have. (I have considered having adapters made for the Toyota transmissions, which I also have several of, because the Supra transmission is one of the best in the world and has been known to handle up to 1000 hp, but to me right now the inconvenient shifter location and additional cost rule it out.) I do appreciate the comments, though, but if it's not for you then it's just not for you.

namba209 · 07-25-2007

Todd I appreciate that, but you gotta remember I installed the whole ball of wax off an S-10, so what I did on Willit? may not apply in this scenario. With the table that Bob posted, there are a whole lot of variables in the dimensions of various T-5s. I've noted the tailshaft mounting pad is different on them, as well as shifter location, tailshaft length, case length, and the aforementioned output shaft length. So when Stephen lets you know which tranny he's using, for which application, it would be in the best interest of all for me to kick back and watch. If I see something that I think will assist, of course, I'll jump in. On that note I will say the driveshaft will probably have to be modified by putting a new front U-joint and yoke from the original application to a new Opel rear U-joint after the shaft length has been modified. On a GT the tranny must be centered in the tunnel, I found I only had about 1/4" clearance between the U-joint and tunnel, and under spiriited driving conditions, making a turn, the U-joint hammers the tunnel just a bit.

West Coast GT · 07-25-2007

This interests me. I have a fairly stock 1.9 in a 72 GT. And it badly needs a 5th gear. I may upgrade the engine next year, but I can't see me getting into the power/performance circle some of our other members live in. I have a rudimentary shade-tree mechanic ability, and don't want to face making mods best done in a fer-real shop by fer-real mechanics.

If this sounds like a good application for your suggested adapter, then count me in.

07-25-2007	#1 (permalink)
oldopelguy Have Opel, Will Travel Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickens, SC Posts: 1,610 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Logbook Entries: 3	T-5 interest So, I went to my local machinist today with the blueprints for an adapter that'll bolt an S10 T-5 up to an Opel bell housing. I got an estimate that I'm happy with, and at a price I can afford to buy 10 of them right now. I'm not going to disclose said price until I have at least a couple in my hand and can verify correct operation, but I can comfortably say it will be less than 1/2 the cost of buying a Getrag 240, probably closer to 1/3rd. How many of you would be interested in such an adapter? For the very short-term I might be able to spring for as many as 15, assuming they sell quickly, but I need to tell them by week's end if I need fewer than 10.

07-25-2007	#4 (permalink)
oldopelguy Have Opel, Will Travel Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickens, SC Posts: 1,610 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Logbook Entries: 3	t-5 The Mustang and v-8 Chevy t-5s use a different bell housing bolt pattern, as well as a bigger input shaft. They also use a shifter that would be at your elbow in most Opels. The s-10 and Camaro 4 and 6 cylinder T-5 uses the same bolt pattern as all the old Muncie and BW transmissions GM used in the 70's. That means this adapter would let one of those transmissions bolt up, assuming the input shaft can be made to work. They also share the same input shaft dimensions with our Opels so whatever clutch you have will work, and the S10 also has a shifter far enough forward to be usable in an Opel. From what I understand, all the internal parts from the Mustang or v-8 Chevy t-5s can be swapped into the s-10 case, so you should be able to upgrade one to the same strength levels, with the exception of the input shaft. I also took in the blueprint for an Opel trans to Toyota G-series and M-series 5-speeds. That adapter would be about 40% more expensive, but would allow for a lot more options. Shifters on those are all by your elbow as well.

07-25-2007	#17 (permalink)
oldopelguy Have Opel, Will Travel Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickens, SC Posts: 1,610 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Logbook Entries: 3	$ Guys, I'm not really shooting for a high performance upgrade here nearly as much as a low cost one. I can get the S10 t-5s, with a manual speedometer drive, for $150 pretty much anywhere, and in fact I have 3 or 4 right now already. I can't get a working Mustang world class t-5 for under $700, and believe me, I've been looking. By the time I got done adapting it, the Mustang unit would cost me the same or more than a Getrag, and if I'm going to spend that kind of dough I'm going for an ROD transmission. So, for you guys looking for the ultimate performance upgrade, this particular adapter is probably not it. For someone looking to put an overdrive transmission in their Opel, and have the shifter come out pretty much where it's supposed to, use the stock or performance clutch they already spent good $ on, and not require a whole lot of butchery, this might be an option. The adapter plate I am having built should allow a T-10 or the like to bolt to the Opel bell housing, which would certainly handle any HP you throw at it but not be overdrive, so that might be a consideration if you really need hp handling ability. I am going to have a few adapters made, looks now like maybe only a couple for myself, and while I'm at it I thought I would see if anyone else would be interested. I have no interest in debating the relative merits of transmissions I don't have. (I have considered having adapters made for the Toyota transmissions, which I also have several of, because the Supra transmission is one of the best in the world and has been known to handle up to 1000 hp, but to me right now the inconvenient shifter location and additional cost rule it out.) I do appreciate the comments, though, but if it's not for you then it's just not for you.

07-25-2007	#5 (permalink)
MantAscona Kick a little asphalt Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plumsteadville, Pennsylvania Posts: 929 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I have the exact same thoughts as Bob...........that's scary. When I first heard of this project I was assuming that it was for the Mustang/Tremec style T-5. I would like to see this happen if it will allow the use of the M/T version. As Bob mentioned, the available ratios are limited in the S-10 version and almost limitless in the M/T version. Definitely worth pursuing in my opinion as it would be the last gearbox you would ever have to buy for any Opel. Duane

07-25-2007	#6 (permalink)
cherokee Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 356 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	In looking at trannys for my app, I decided on a T-5 there are just so many people out there playing with them. You can get one just about any way you would like. Gforce offers off the shelf dogring guts for a T-5, In talking to them you can get them in what ever ratio you would like, not cheap but cheaper then Housman or a Tilton. Ka-Ching.

07-25-2007	#9 (permalink)
RallyBob Project 1450 supporter... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pleasant Valley, CT Posts: 6,655 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I just crawled around under a car with a Getrag 265 with a tape measure, and as near as I can tell, the T5 shifter location should be darn close to the location of an unmodified Getrag 265 shifter. So it will entail modifying the tunnel to accept the shifter set about 7" further back. Now, if you go the Tremec 500 route, there is an aftermarket shifter available for that tranny that allows for a relocation 6.8" further forward. But the shifter is $300. And the tranny costs more too. For 300+/- hp, I'll stick with the T5 and mod the tunnel, but for the big HP engines the Tremec or a G-Force prepped T5 will be necessary. So, as usual, you can't please everyone!

07-25-2007	#11 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Guys, a couple of things. First, almost all the T-5s you're referring to do not have mechanical speedo outputs, they're electrical, and I don't know if you can put a mechancial output on one just by changing the reluctor for a gear drive. Second, when I was concerned about this on Willit?'s T-5, I called Tremec and got hold of a guy that made up a Windows spreadsheet with all kinds of info in it, he accumulated over the years he was working with Borg-Warner before Tremec bought them out. It's a fairly large file, he e-mailed it to me, so I can do the same if anyone wants it. It has the part # and which cars they went in along with all the gear ratios, along with some oher info. Third, IIRC you can change the main housing, bellhousing, and tailshaft housings from one to another so you can put the shifter anywhere along the tailshaft housing, ie., front, middle, or at the rear. All you gotta do is figure which one goes where. I think, well I know for sure the S-10 T-5 shifter is right behind the main housing at the front of the tailshaft, the Camaro maybe be at the very rear and possibly the Ford is in the middle, IDK. If so, you could put a "World Class" Camaro tranny in a GT just by changing the input shaft and tailhousing, or get a 4.6L T-5 for an S-10, maybe, IDK what the input shaft size is on that. Another thing I just remembered, after 1988 all the T-5s had a hydraulic servo clutch setup, so if you wanted to use the Opel cable setup you'd have to get an 88 or older bellhousing.and take an inch off of the throw-out arm to fit in a GT, and make up a bracket for the clutch cable to anchor in. Just some hints from doing this on Willit?.

07-25-2007	#13 (permalink)
RallyBob Project 1450 supporter... Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pleasant Valley, CT Posts: 6,655 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	These might help.

07-25-2007	#15 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	That's what I get for not re-reading the original post. According to the info Bob loaded a bit ago, check column "B", there's 18mm difference in the input shaft length, and IDK if the pilot bearing dimensions are the same for each input shaft. Hopefully Stephen has all that figured out as to which tranny/input shaft will work with the adapter plate he's getting made. The difference beween the two S-10 trannies listed is only .2mm which shouldn't make a difference, but the others may not work. I'll just sit back and watch as this unfolds, so as not to throw any more garbage in the game.

07-25-2007	#16 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,510 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Ron, you're one of the few people who actually has one of these transmissions in an Opel, so chime in where ever you see fit. Your experience will hopefully come in handy for the rest of us! Todd

07-25-2007	#18 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Todd I appreciate that, but you gotta remember I installed the whole ball of wax off an S-10, so what I did on Willit? may not apply in this scenario. With the table that Bob posted, there are a whole lot of variables in the dimensions of various T-5s. I've noted the tailshaft mounting pad is different on them, as well as shifter location, tailshaft length, case length, and the aforementioned output shaft length. So when Stephen lets you know which tranny he's using, for which application, it would be in the best interest of all for me to kick back and watch. If I see something that I think will assist, of course, I'll jump in. On that note I will say the driveshaft will probably have to be modified by putting a new front U-joint and yoke from the original application to a new Opel rear U-joint after the shaft length has been modified. On a GT the tranny must be centered in the tunnel, I found I only had about 1/4" clearance between the U-joint and tunnel, and under spiriited driving conditions, making a turn, the U-joint hammers the tunnel just a bit.

07-25-2007	#19 (permalink)
West Coast GT Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 841 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	This interests me. I have a fairly stock 1.9 in a 72 GT. And it badly needs a 5th gear. I may upgrade the engine next year, but I can't see me getting into the power/performance circle some of our other members live in. I have a rudimentary shade-tree mechanic ability, and don't want to face making mods best done in a fer-real shop by fer-real mechanics. If this sounds like a good application for your suggested adapter, then count me in.