Getrag: Squeaks When Clutch Released

fourdukes · 07-02-2009

...since this IS a thread about the Getrag conversion. As I said above, I just finished the 4-speed to 5-speed conversion. The transmission is GREAT - feels unlike any manual I've ever had in an Opel (4 Manta's since 1979). It is amazingly tight and solid, not sloppy like all the 4-sppeds I've had in the last 30 years. Anyway, the issue is that anytime the clutch is not engaged (pedal is up) there's a squeaking sound that is not terribly loud at idle, but when driving, it is loud enough to be worrysome. I am running synthetic blend gear oil in the Getrag, right now, just to get things going, to be replaced by the recommended synth once everything is working good. So my plan for tomorrow is to start with the clutch and adjust to see if that will fix it. Has anyone had a squeak issue after the Getrag conversion (or any other time) that might point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Carson

kwilford · 07-02-2009

Originally Posted by fourdukes

...since this IS a thread about the Getrag conversion. As I said above, I just finished the 4-speed to 5-speed conversion. Anyway, the issue is that anytime the clutch is not engaged (pedal is up) there's a squeaking sound that is not terribly loud at idle, but when driving, it is loud enough to be worrysome. I am running synthetic blend gear oil in the Getrag, right now, just to get things going, to be replaced by the recommended synth once everything is working good. So my plan for tomorrow is to start with the clutch and adjust to see if that will fix it. Has anyone had a squeak issue after the Getrag conversion (or any other time) that might point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
Carson

Perhaps the release bearing? It shouldn't really be "engaged" when the pedal is released, and even when it is engaged, it should be pretty quiet. Does the squeak change when you depress the clutch pedal? Try adjusting the clutch and let us know if that made a difference. If it does, you might be planning to replace the release bearing in the not-to-distant future.

HTH

fourdukes · 07-02-2009

I actually did replace the clutch disk, pressure plate and release bearing when reassembling the drivetrain (hadn't planned on it until we were under the car, ready to put the tranny up, and decided that we didn't want to disassemble and reassemble the Getrag too often). Maybe the new release bearing is no good. It's silent when the clutch pedal is pressed.
-cd

RallyBob · 07-02-2009

Sounds like the clutch cable is adjusted too 'tight....in other words no free play.

fourdukes · 07-03-2009

The girlfriend part reminds me...
About 30 years ago, I was working at a restaurant. A bunch of us were hanging out in the parking lot, and I had to go back in to work. I asked one of the girls there (a girl I'd had my eye on for a while) if she would move my car for me ('73 Manta). I then looked at her and asked "Can you drive a 4 speed?". She looked at me, and said "I can drive anything."
We celebrated our 25th anniversary last fall.
-cd

hrcollinsjr · 07-03-2009

Originally Posted by DacMan

I don't want my girfriend driving my car,... Thanks, DacMan

You could be like a buddy of mine that finally sold his unfinished 'vette. I asked about it once and his father said he'd never put it back together because he didn't want his wife to drive it. Harold (not me) just hung his head and grinned.

Harold

opelwasp · 07-03-2009

Originally Posted by fourdukes

The girlfriend part reminds me...
About 30 years ago, I was working at a restaurant. A bunch of us were hanging out in the parking lot, and I had to go back in to work. I asked one of the girls there (a girl I'd had my eye on for a while) if she would move my car for me ('73 Manta). I then looked at her and asked "Can you drive a 4 speed?". She looked at me, and said "I can drive anything."
We celebrated our 25th anniversary last fall.
-cd

Very coy. I'll bet she has made you very happy.

Like my wife, while we were dating she would grease my wheel bearings for me, by hand. She has never been afraid of getting dirty. Just how I like her. We are going on 13 years.

fourdukes · 07-04-2009

Adjusted clutch yesterday. Didn't seem to have any effect. No less or more squeaky. Actually loosened to the point where it wasn't possible to get it in gear. So I'm thinking about the release bearing again. If the release bearing was bad, would it be noisy with the clutch pedal down, as well as up?
-cd

RallyBob · 07-04-2009

Originally Posted by fourdukes

Adjusted clutch yesterday. Didn't seem to have any effect. No less or more squeaky. Actually loosened to the point where it wasn't possible to get it in gear. So I'm thinking about the release bearing again. If the release bearing was bad, would it be noisy with the clutch pedal down, as well as up?
-cd

The release bearing should not be engaged until the pedal is depressed.

How did you adjust the clutch? Proper adjustment includes releasing the cable tension (remove the clip @ the firewall), then adjusting the pivot stud on the bellhousing until the distance from the centerline of the clutch cable ball-end to the face of the bellhousing is 4.25".

Then you adjust the cable itself. To do this, turn the key to the 'on' position, and pull on the cable until the light on the dashboard lights up (clutch wear light/brake light). You'll need two people to accomplish this of course! Now release the cable until the warning light *just* goes out, and at this point place the E-clip on the cable 2 or 3 slots away from the firewall. That will give you the appropriate free-play to ensure the release bearing is not engaged.

HTH,
Bob

trlmr · 07-04-2009

I have a question for you. Was the trans rebuilt before you installed it? You say it is tight, so maybe the input shaft was installed with the wrong clearance and the bearing is a little too tight. The input shaft will turn anytime the clutch is engaged. The way you describe it, it sounds like you have eliminated the throw out brg as the problem IMO.

I guess maybe I should back up a bit.

I don't know how a getrac is constructed. I don't have a book. I am assuming it is an aluminum case with shims to set the clearances. I am only going from a past experience I had with a ZF transmission. on that trans it had similar symptoms and it ended up being a thrust problem.

kwilford · 07-04-2009

Originally Posted by RallyBob

The release bearing should not be engaged until the pedal is depressed.

How did you adjust the clutch? Proper adjustment includes releasing the cable tension (remove the clip @ the firewall), then adjusting the pivot stud on the bellhousing until the distance from the centerline of the clutch cable ball-end to the face of the bellhousing is 4.25".

Then you adjust the cable itself. To do this, turn the key to the 'on' position, and pull on the cable until the light on the dashboard lights up (clutch wear light/brake light). You'll need two people to accomplish this of course! Now release the cable until the warning light *just* goes out, and at this point place the E-clip on the cable 2 or 3 slots away from the firewall. That will give you the appropriate free-play to ensure the release bearing is not engaged.

HTH,
Bob

and again for clarity, the procedure that Bob describes is for a Manta/Ascona, NOT for a GT, which doesn't have the clutch-out-of-adjustment light. On the GT, simple adjustments for friction disk wear are done only with the release fork pivot stud to maintain pedal free-play. When you have to adjust both the cable and the release fork (after replacing one or more major components), you first adjust the stud to get the 4 1/4" spacing, THEN you adjust the e-clip to give the required pedal free-play (3/4" to 1 1/4", described as two grooves of clearance in the clutch cable end by the FSM)

HTH

fourdukes · 07-05-2009

Thanks to all for the inputs.

Going back to when we reassembled everything. I adjusted the clutch fork to 4.25", not knowing if that was the same for the Getrag as for the stock 4-speed, but having no other direction, that's where I decided to start. After the reassembly, we got the squeaking as described above. Did some adjusting on the clutch Friday - sort of seat-of-the-pants adjustments to loosen things up a little. No effect. Yesterday, going by the book, and Bob's reminder of how it's supposed to be done, did everything as prescribed. Again, no audible effect. I am puzzled.

I don't know whether the trans was rebuilt before I got it. Bought from OGTS, received last December/January.

Had a thought last night - what if the ball stud wasn't greased when the clutch fork/release bearing was put back together in the bellhousing? Kinda makes some sense that it would squeak when it's not under pressure, and when the clutch pedal is depressed, there would be enough pressure on it that it wouldn't squeak. Kinda makes you want to

-cd

kwilford · 07-05-2009

Originally Posted by fourdukes

...since this IS a thread about the Getrag conversion.

This topic is taking on a life of its own and deserves its own thread, so I split it off

Originally Posted by fourdukes

...Anyway, the issue is that anytime the clutch is not engaged (pedal is up) there's a squeaking sound that is not terribly loud at idle, but when driving, it is loud enough to be worrysome.

Hmm...Noises are darn tough to diagnose even in person, and almost impossible over the Internet. A couple of questions:

Is it a stock clutch?
Is the squeak engine-speed dependent?
What happens when you depress the clutch pedal at speed?
Is the squeak different when in different gears?

I don't think that the release fork ball stud has anything to do with the squeak, but if you were to drop the transmission, it certainly couldn't hurt to lubricate it.

BQS4 · 07-05-2009

There was another member that had a 5-spd noise, turned out to be that the cover plate (half-moon shaped cover) for the bottom part of the bellhousing was bent just enough to allow it to touch the flywheel directly behind it. Just a thought....

opellane · 07-05-2009

If I remember when I did my 5-speed Conversion, I used the S-10 Clutch
I had to grind some Aluminum off the inside of the Bell Housing as the clutch rubbed a little bit

. Try to pinpoint sound by turning engine over by hand until you hear the noise. HTH

Bill Hoffmann · 07-05-2009

Originally Posted by BQS4

There was another member that had a 5-spd noise, turned out to be that the cover plate (half-moon shaped cover) for the bottom part of the bellhousing was bent just enough to allow it to touch the flywheel directly behind it. Just a thought....

Yes. My Manta with Getrag also does just that, but only when I've been sitting in traffic for a while. That cover plate is so close it doesn't take much for it to rub. I get a cyclical scraping sound when it happens, which could be described as squeaking.

Bill

West Coast GT · 07-05-2009

Your squeak might be vibration.
Check to see if your "clutch return spring" is missing, broken, or slack. if there is no tension to hold the fork snug out of the way, it will vibrate.

This return spring is exterior to the transmission, and attaches at the throwout arm and to a crossmember (probably the transmission cross member).

Mike Preble · 07-05-2009

I am in the middle of pulling my Getrag to change the bearing on the front of the input shaft. My noise occurs mostly when my tranny is in 1st, 3rd and 5th. I was told this is common when a Getrag is stored on its nose at the junk yard. Water will drain down threw the tranny and down the input shaft and rusts the bearing. My whirring noise is so loud that I must wear ear plugs to drive on the freeway. This has probably contributed to my insanity, but that is another subject.

But I will know better once I get the tranny out of the car. A fun project while laying on your back in 100+ weather. I love sweating.

Just a thought, though and I will keep you informed of what I find.

Mike

Bill Hoffmann · 07-05-2009

Originally Posted by fourdukes

Anyway, the issue is that anytime the clutch is not engaged (pedal is up) there's a squeaking sound that is not terribly loud at idle, but when driving, it is loud enough to be worrysome.

I thought of the pilot bearing but this condition would seem top rule that out, since the crankshaft and input shaft are at the same speed.

Bill Hoffmann · 07-05-2009

Originally Posted by Mike Preble

I am in the middle of pulling my Getrag to change the bearing on the front of the input shaft.

Mike,

Rereading your post, I realize you mean the input shaft bearing, not the pilot bearing.

Sorry,

Bill

07-02-2009	#1 (permalink)
fourdukes Opeler Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: King George, Virginia Posts: 14	Unanswered: Getrag: Squeaks When Clutch Released ...since this IS a thread about the Getrag conversion. As I said above, I just finished the 4-speed to 5-speed conversion. The transmission is GREAT - feels unlike any manual I've ever had in an Opel (4 Manta's since 1979). It is amazingly tight and solid, not sloppy like all the 4-sppeds I've had in the last 30 years. Anyway, the issue is that anytime the clutch is not engaged (pedal is up) there's a squeaking sound that is not terribly loud at idle, but when driving, it is loud enough to be worrysome. I am running synthetic blend gear oil in the Getrag, right now, just to get things going, to be replaced by the recommended synth once everything is working good. So my plan for tomorrow is to start with the clutch and adjust to see if that will fix it. Has anyone had a squeak issue after the Getrag conversion (or any other time) that might point me in the right direction? Thanks, Carson

07-04-2009	#10 (permalink)
trlmr Opeler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Iowa Posts: 109 Provided Answers: 4	I have a question for you. Was the trans rebuilt before you installed it? You say it is tight, so maybe the input shaft was installed with the wrong clearance and the bearing is a little too tight. The input shaft will turn anytime the clutch is engaged. The way you describe it, it sounds like you have eliminated the throw out brg as the problem IMO. I guess maybe I should back up a bit. I don't know how a getrac is constructed. I don't have a book. I am assuming it is an aluminum case with shims to set the clearances. I am only going from a past experience I had with a ZF transmission. on that trans it had similar symptoms and it ended up being a thrust problem. Last edited by trlmr; 07-04-2009 at 05:21 PM. Reason: clarification

07-05-2009	#14 (permalink)
BQS4 Southern Red Neck Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Snellville, GA Posts: 6,029 Real Name: Gene Provided Answers: 12	There was another member that had a 5-spd noise, turned out to be that the cover plate (half-moon shaped cover) for the bottom part of the bellhousing was bent just enough to allow it to touch the flywheel directly behind it. Just a thought.... __________________ "Yes, I do have a rifle rack in my Sportwagon"

07-05-2009	#18 (permalink)
Mike Preble Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 368 Provided Answers: 1	ttranny noise I am in the middle of pulling my Getrag to change the bearing on the front of the input shaft. My noise occurs mostly when my tranny is in 1st, 3rd and 5th. I was told this is common when a Getrag is stored on its nose at the junk yard. Water will drain down threw the tranny and down the input shaft and rusts the bearing. My whirring noise is so loud that I must wear ear plugs to drive on the freeway. This has probably contributed to my insanity, but that is another subject. But I will know better once I get the tranny out of the car. A fun project while laying on your back in 100+ weather. I love sweating. Just a thought, though and I will keep you informed of what I find. Mike

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07-02-2009	#3 (permalink)
fourdukes Opeler Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: King George, Virginia Posts: 14	I actually did replace the clutch disk, pressure plate and release bearing when reassembling the drivetrain (hadn't planned on it until we were under the car, ready to put the tranny up, and decided that we didn't want to disassemble and reassemble the Getrag too often). Maybe the new release bearing is no good. It's silent when the clutch pedal is pressed. -cd

07-03-2009	#5 (permalink)
fourdukes Opeler Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: King George, Virginia Posts: 14	The girlfriend part reminds me... About 30 years ago, I was working at a restaurant. A bunch of us were hanging out in the parking lot, and I had to go back in to work. I asked one of the girls there (a girl I'd had my eye on for a while) if she would move my car for me ('73 Manta). I then looked at her and asked "Can you drive a 4 speed?". She looked at me, and said "I can drive anything." We celebrated our 25th anniversary last fall. -cd

07-04-2009	#8 (permalink)
fourdukes Opeler Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: King George, Virginia Posts: 14	Adjusted clutch yesterday. Didn't seem to have any effect. No less or more squeaky. Actually loosened to the point where it wasn't possible to get it in gear. So I'm thinking about the release bearing again. If the release bearing was bad, would it be noisy with the clutch pedal down, as well as up? -cd

07-05-2009	#12 (permalink)
fourdukes Opeler Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: King George, Virginia Posts: 14	Thanks to all for the inputs. Going back to when we reassembled everything. I adjusted the clutch fork to 4.25", not knowing if that was the same for the Getrag as for the stock 4-speed, but having no other direction, that's where I decided to start. After the reassembly, we got the squeaking as described above. Did some adjusting on the clutch Friday - sort of seat-of-the-pants adjustments to loosen things up a little. No effect. Yesterday, going by the book, and Bob's reminder of how it's supposed to be done, did everything as prescribed. Again, no audible effect. I am puzzled. I don't know whether the trans was rebuilt before I got it. Bought from OGTS, received last December/January. Had a thought last night - what if the ball stud wasn't greased when the clutch fork/release bearing was put back together in the bellhousing? Kinda makes some sense that it would squeak when it's not under pressure, and when the clutch pedal is depressed, there would be enough pressure on it that it wouldn't squeak. Kinda makes you want to -cd

07-05-2009	#17 (permalink)
West Coast GT Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 931	Your squeak might be vibration. Check to see if your "clutch return spring" is missing, broken, or slack. if there is no tension to hold the fork snug out of the way, it will vibrate. This return spring is exterior to the transmission, and attaches at the throwout arm and to a crossmember (probably the transmission cross member).

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