Ford Duratec 3.0 V6- Ford Escape remains
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Thread: Ford Duratec 3.0 V6- Ford Escape remains

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Ford Duratec 3.0 V6- Ford Escape remains

    Hello All,

    My apologies for a 1st post being theoretical; my girlfriend's Escape was totaled in an accident recently; thankfully, she was fine.

    Has anyone contemplated using the 2.5/3.0L Duratecs for a swap? Her Escape had the 3.0, and after checking a Mercury Cougar forum, it appears the peer support for these engines is pretty extensive. No engine dimensions yet, but "eyeballing" it, it's quite compact. Aluminum 60 degree V6, Longitudinally mounted, easily available mounting plates for T-5's, as well as direct hookup to a few other trannies.

    I haven't done much research yet, but figured this forum would be a great place to put out tentative feelers. It'd be a nice way to salvage some of the detritus from the accident. For me, it helps that the motor shares much of the "Ford" language and parts purveyors I'm familiar with from my Mustang racing days back in the mid-90's.

    Any comments or insight would be greatly appreciated. Sidenote: It's nice to see a site where classic model enthusiasts support driveability alterations. We experienced a bunch of hostility when finishing up a Rover 3.5 into Spitfire conversion a few years back. I fully support keeping a car original, but if destined for the junkyard/oblivion...

    Thanks-Jeff

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    Jeff, I do believe one or two members have put the ford engine in their GTs. If you want a little bit of an idea of how much fun you can have, read my Willit? Update thread. It's fairly long, been going on for a bit over 6 years, but it covers the pitfalls and other fun I've had putting a 95 Camaro 60 degree V-6 and a 92 S-10 T-5 in my GT. I can guarnatee you, it won't be a weekend job.
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Quote Originally Posted by namba209 View Post
    Jeff, I do believe one or two members have put the ford engine in their GTs. If you want a little bit of an idea of how much fun you can have, read my Willit? Update thread. It's fairly long, been going on for a bit over 6 years, but it covers the pitfalls and other fun I've had putting a 95 Camaro 60 degree V-6 and a 92 S-10 T-5 in my GT. I can guarnatee you, it won't be a weekend job.
    Hi Namba,

    Thanks for the response; trust me, when we did the Spitfire/V8 job, we laid out 3 months and XXXX amount of money for the fab, assembly, trouble shooting. And, of course, it took nearly 3x that amount of time and money. The joys of wasted income

    I've been a forum member for perhaps a week now, and have been slowly grinding my way through your willit? thread. Invaluable info, so thanks. I was wondering specifically about the Duratec, as I haven't found on search anyone using it other than perhaps the smaller 4-cylinder variants. Basically, "Willit?" to steal your phrase.

    I haven't played around w/ the Camaro 3.4 pushrod, but do have familiarity w/ GM's old 3800 series 3.8 lumps, which I've seen mentioned being used. If that motor will shoehorn in, I'm thinking it will physically fit. As I haven't found dimensions, who knows, but I'm a bit worried about the fat plenum Ford sticks on these motors being too big. The engine is self contained in regards to its ECU, etc.; no need for theft deterrent gear and so on.

    As I continue to wade through the "willit?" thread, I hope you don't mind if I ask questions; will try not to hijack too blatantly.

    Any further insight/suggestions, whether practical or theoretical, from all would be welcome. And, how the heck to I delete that doubled post??:banghead:

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    No problem asking the questions about my project, that's why it's there, along with showing folks what I have encountered along the way. The 3.8L engine will be a real PIA to install in a GT, it's a 90 degree motor, therefore much wider than the 3.4L, or your ford 60 degree V-6. There have been folks that sucessfully installed the 5.7L V-8s and a lot that had major problems doing it. The real big thing is, with a unibody like the GT, the whole car is the framework and will twist significantly because of the torque. A real ladder frame is necessary to handle a large motor like that. On Willit?, I had to open up the footwell and wiper well, the footwell for exhaust clearance and the wiper well for the plenum clearance. You might want to do a search for the turbo Thunderbird engine, I believe that's what was used in a couple of swaps. HTH.

    Don't worry about the double post, one of the mods will tke care of it for you.
    Last edited by namba209 (R.I.P.); 01-04-2007 at 10:33 PM.
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks Ron,

    I figured if someone hammered in a 3800 Gen II, we'll have a shot at a seemless install. I remember some guy at Sears Point (track); he took his 3.8Bonneville, pulled off the Eaton Blower, and installed twin Garret spools. Was incredibly ludicrous, but very interesting to see

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    Opeler Wickedcool is on a distinguished road
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    I would say a computer controlled engine is hard enough to swap to begin with, but doable with time and effort. A newer obd2 engine is going to be a nightmare from hell! You would have to pull all the emissions control equipment in the opel in order for the engine to work properly. That gets to be a problem in several areas, like gas tank pressure sensors, catalytic converter and multiple o2 sensors, various other emissions boxes and contraptions that will be hard to fit under the limited hood, etc.

    I'm currently looking for a ford 2.3 with turbo for mine, it looks like a rather easy swap with a very good horsepower to weight ratio. They also make a large selection of performance cams for this engine too! Add a t3-t4 hybrid and your talking big hp numbers dirt cheap!

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Wasn't sure about the OBD-II 'puter as well. A bunch of the old Ford guys had switched out their EEC-V's (OBD-II) for EEC-IV's (-I) when the Mustang's switched to their Modulars.

    Wiring will be the duty of my partner in this build, whose far more capable in this sense. If worse came to worse, I'd simply pick up another Megasquirt standalone program. I've pretty extensive experience w/ it, and believe/hope it'd prove suitable.

    2.3 liter turbo...as in SVO motor? Those were pretty fast cars, easy to mod and durable. I always liked the way they spooled up; comparatively little lag, particularly for the time.

    I need to spend a little more time on Ron's thread, as I've only helped in one swap, and never w/ such a "techie" little motor.

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    Actually if you get the engine harness and computer, along with both ends of all the connectors going to the engine, the harness isn't that bad to integrate to the Opel. The problem lies in adding all the extra circuits that the engine has that are fused. On Willit? I added 13 more fused circuits to the 7 already in the car, and added a handful of relays so the power required for the engine and car did not go through the ignition switch. One thing I found to be invaluable was schematics of the engine computer and instrument panel (4 pages) and having a DESTEC schematic of the GT. I actually eneded up purchasing 4 manuals to be sure I had all the schematics for the engine and transmission along with the torque values necessary for engine/transmission maintenance. Smoke tight and a quarter turn just doesn't get it when you're bolting aluminum and cast iron/steel together.
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Funny, it's 2:30am San Francisco time, and I'm still reading on various boards; pathetic.

    Getting full engine schematics/diagrams is a great suggestion; as stated, I'm not good w/ the electical end of things. Ironic that, as I'm sure it'll be the most difficult part of the job)

    I'm busy looking up rough weights/dimensions of the Duratec30's, and am going to take some rough measurements of Jen's motor tomorrow, as well as the GT's engine bay, just to ballpark things. I'm looking at perhaps sourcing a Gen II Miata tranny, as I'm worried about the added size of my beloved T-5s; I know that MX-5 5-speeds'll bolt up w/ minimal hassle.

    I like the Megasquirt due to tuning and diagnostic flexibility, but utilizing the stock OBD-II running gear and an $80 datalogger would be ideal, particularly as I'd have the option of taking the car to the local Ford shop to have them work on my "Escape."

    Expect more intelligent, or more annoying, questions as I E-educate myself a bit more. This site is pretty dense. -J

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    Manta Saviour blancojp will become famous soon enough blancojp's Avatar
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    I don't know about the Ford but the GM version of the 60 degree V-6 is approx. 15"x15"x15" without any accessories or covers mounted. These are the dimensions at the widest point in the engine with the heads installed.

    The Duratec is a very cool engine to work with, eventhough is mostly made by Mazda with a few Ford items added. The ECU has a number of ports which you will need to bypass for the engine to run properly but should be an easy task if you plan it right.

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    Lemme expand just a bit on what JB said, at least as it applies to the 3.4L I've got in Willit? The ECU takes ALL the sensor readings and adjusts the ignition timing, fuel linjector timing and pulse lengths. It also monitors engine loads based on RPM and MAP to prevent serious engine knocking/pinging. Even at a constant engine load/RPM, I've never seen a constant state of RPM, MAP, O2 readings, ignition timing or AFR on my scanner. A computer adjustment of just one millisecond, throws everything into a state of flux and the computer goes into a continual state of adjusting the ignition timing and injector timing. The engine sounds and appears to be running at a constant RPM, but it just isn't so. I have all the engine sensors connected to the computer, because I'm not cognizant of which ones I can disconnect and still have the engine perform correctly. The MegaSquirt system may work, IDK, I'm just not that swooft to find out. The factory system I've got on Willit? will put you back in the seat in a hurry when you step on the gas, and that was what I was after. I don't know what the dimensions are on the Ford V-6, but centering the S-10 T-5 shifter in the console hole dictated where my engine went in the hole. You'd have to do some real close measuring to determine that and make up the subframes to accomodate that position. I don't want to nay say anything or try to dissuade you on this project, just be aware of a lot of what you already know, time money and fabrication is gonna be needed, along with a whole lot of research, before you start. If I can suggest one thing, get the engine on a stand and go with whatever computer setup you want, then get the engine running, before you stuff it in the hole. Having the engine operational, first, can save you a lot of hassles later on. At least you'll know it's gonna work when you stuff it in.
    Last edited by namba209 (R.I.P.); 01-05-2007 at 04:58 PM.
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Thanks JB/Ron; I don't think I've described exactly what we're planning to accomplish w/ this project, as well as our expectations and background. I'm just smart enough to realize that we're going to have to take our expected time/cash outlay and headaches, and expand them by factors

    JB, tht OBD-II compliant engine is the most worrisome aspect of this proposal, for me. I'm blessed w/ friends/associates in the fabrication mechanical world whom I've always enlisted for my car work, whether building motors or the aformentioned previous swap. Along w/ my meager experience, I'm confident we can create a cohesive parts marriage. Only one has experience installing OBD-II wiring, however, a 4.6 2-valve (yuck) into an old Falcon, hence my fear of the upcoming wiring nightmare.

    Ron, no offense taken at all; your words of warning all well-founded. This is going to be an extremely challenging and comprehensive job, far above my means alone. I hope that I'm taking as many obstacles into account as possible beforehand, and will have the resources to tackle the inevitable that'll crop up.

    My Megasquirt proposal is a backup in case for some reason we can't get the factory ECU up. I'm set on the EEC-V system; thankfully, there's tons of support to assist us. If worse comes to worse, I know MS is capable of complete engine management, full instantaneous updating, datalogging, updating, etc. It's one of the few things I can say I have extensive experience w/, and others are using them to control street-driven VQ Nissan motors, Honda Vtechs, and the like. Hears to wishing...

    Thanks for the "Engine on the stand" suggestion. Great method for limiting headaches in the install. I read on this board somewhere of another who installed the GM 3.4 in his GT; he had either his TPS or return spring stuck, and the motor on the stand wouldn't idle below 3.5k or so. He ran the thing to 6K plus during his testing; that sounds terrifying!

    JB, do you have extensive experience w/ the Ford V6? I found it a little rough on the top end and slow revving, but that was in a 3500lb sporte-"cute" w/ a big auto-tranny behind it. I'm frankly surprised there's so much support for it, seeing as it hasn't been installed in many performance applications. It's intake plenum design is neatly engineered.

    I'll be updating w/ progress as it happens, and undoubtedly be asking questions as we actually delve into the project. Further comments are welcome.

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    Manta Saviour blancojp will become famous soon enough blancojp's Avatar
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    I have done lots of work with both GM and Ford V-6 engines. We make a vehicle called the TRack T which combines the good stuff from 1923 to 1932 Fords into a tight package. The vehicle is about 1300 lbs and sweet as can be. I like to work with the factory ECU since we can change the software any which way we like. Just takes a bit to sort out all of the engine signals and get sensors online. But being a dinasaur still requires me to love carburators since they are still the simplest form of fuel/air supply.

    Wiring should be no biggie but I recommend you replace the Opel fuse box with a quickwire or painless unit to gain additional circuits. Also remember this is a front wheel drive engine, you will need to think about engine mounts, flywheel and of couse the bellhousing/tranny combo.

    Please make sure you plan this properly, stage the work and don't continue until the previous stage is complete. Your future road will have lots of bumps, take them one at a time and you'll do just fine.

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    I'll concur with a way to get more fused circuits. One way to find out how many more you'll need is to get the schematics for the car the engine is coming out of. It will show the power source for all the circuits. As an exmple, I needed one circuit just for the ECU and two for the fuel injector circuits, plus the electric fan, two fuel pumps, AC, start circuit and accessory circuit, plus one for the headlites, which didn't have one to begin with. It took me a week or two just checking all the circuits on the ECU, just to be sure they weren't damaged in shipping. Building a power panel took about a week, only because I went from fuses to aircraft type circuit breakers, and used two terminal strips to route all the wires. I did use the Opel steering column and instrument panel connectors and all the wiring on those, only because they were servicable. Any suspect wires were replaced, but with about 12" of the original color coded wire on each end to help in trouble shooting later on. Don't forget you'll have to change the water and oil sensors to match the Opel gages. Yeah, engine swaps are so much fun.
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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    Opeler supertweet is on a distinguished road
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    Just received general specs for the V6, and thought I'd share for anyone who might be interested:
    Full Dress weight: 365 lbs. (Including fluids, split-runner intake)
    Dimensions (Minus various intakes)
    L: 21" including accessories
    W:23"
    H: 23" (Pan to cam covers, minus upper intake)

    I'll get Cylinder head and bottom widths when I actually measure the engine myself; now need to gather the CIH dimensions; anyone have them feel free to holler!

    Yeah, engine swaps are so much fun...
    No kidding Ron; sometimes wonder why we put ourselves through all the frustration) Bet that nifty V.O.M. OBD-II datalogger/diagnostic tool thingey's been invaluable for checking out the Code screams) I've been jumping around your various threads simultaenously while reading linearly, and seen some wonderful photos; that motor's pretty snug in there. Do you have any problems w/ the intake plenum hitting as it torques in the bay?

    BTW, I nice hydrofoil R/C models you have; thankfully there's no "L" between that "B" and "A" in "NAMBA"!
    Last edited by supertweet; 01-07-2007 at 04:10 PM.

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    5,000 Post Club My location namba209 (R.I.P.) is on a distinguished road namba209 (R.I.P.)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by supertweet View Post
    No kidding Ron; sometimes wonder why we put ourselves through all the frustration) Bet that nifty V.O.M. OBD-II datalogger/diagnostic tool thingey's been invaluable for checking out the Code screams) I've been jumping around your various threads simultaenously while reading linearly, and seen some wonderful photos; that motor's pretty snug in there. Do you have any problems w/ the intake plenum hitting as it torques in the bay?

    BTW, I nice hydrofoil R/C models you have; thankfully there's no "L" between that "B" and "A" in "NAMBA"!
    Oh yeah, the scanner has been very useful. It gave me the actual temps on the cooling system, which told my my electric fan was o.k. and the sensor was too. I've got 4 VOMs, they've been invaluable in checking out all the circuits, especially when some wires are color-coded the same. No problem with the engine torque, I made the holes big enuff to begin with and using large tubing to close up the holes gives me additional room for the twisting of the engine. I had to put my model hydroplanes, tunnel hulls, and deep V on hold during my project. It'll be fun getting back on them though. Yeah, I've had some comments on my screen name more than once, but NAMBA was around long before the other was, with a lot more positive press..
    Ron
    72 GT 3.4L V-6/T-5/ZF posi - almost done - Just need AC installed.
    75 Chevy monza 5.7L/TH350/Auburn 3.08 posi - Next

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