Idea for good engine swap

[Phoenix]

I've been thinking about swaping something into a Manta a lot lately, nothing too serious yet. I don't even have a Manta...yet. Anyway, I figure if I were going to do such a thing that I would really want to make it worth it. Naturally, I wouldn't want to break the bank either.

Guyopel has talked about a Grand National motor with a Camaro rear end, which would definately be worth doing but very expensive as just the motor would run around 2G, and buying a body would be almost out of the question.

I really liked my Thunderbird 5.0 and there are so many Mustangs with the same block out there. So many aftermarket parts, etc. Inexpensive to get an engine, or even a body for the swap.



It was my Thunderbird that presented a very good option. The 3.8 SC engine. They're lighter and take-up less space, produce more power then the 5.0 in the same body, and a whole body can be pick-up for around a grand or so anyway you want it.

If you were to go the route of a body as a donor you would have a lot of other good stuff. They have a 5-speed, IRS, trac-lock rear-end, 5 lug, 4 wheel disc, some with ABS, some with leather interiors- all for experimentation.

There are plenty of places selling performance parts that exponentially increase its already good power. The 89-93 SC was rated at 215 hp while the 94-95 were at 230 hp. Not sure what take home hp was.
Super Coupe Performance
Magnum Powers

And there is a huge forum dedicated to the MN12(89-97 Thunderbirds and Cougars with 84-98 Mark cars).
TCCOA.com

[wrench459]

First thing that comes to mind is a 289/302 with a 700R4 trans.
With a 3.55 gear set in the rear.
Next would be a Buick 215 very light engine.
But alas it all takes a pocket full of money

[automata3.0turbo]

Originally Posted by wrench459 First thing that comes to mind is a 289/302 with a 700R4 trans. With a 3.55 gear set in the rear. Next would be a Buick 215 very light engine. But alas it all takes a pocket full of money

Pretty much any engine swap does. I was going to transplant a turbo engine into my n/a supra last year, swap a 7mge for a 7mgte...an engine that was made for the car...and that was going to set me back at around 2500-3000$. For that price, I could by a supra that was already factory turbocharged. So I gave the car to my dad and moved on to something else, which just happens to be an Opel by chance .

[Phoenix]

That's what I'm talking about here. Thunderbirds don't have that good of a value right now. You can buy a whole donor car for around a grand, less for a wreck. It's supercharged and all that extra money you can put toward even more horsies. 300 is not out of the question with these engines and really doesn't take that much.

For me it's like no waste, I would use the side skirts, rear facia, front and rear seats, and maybe a few other things in a 5.0 Thunderbird. I love the 5.0s.

[Hiro]

is this 3.8 a good start point for a race N/A engine?
I'm looking for something a little bit lighter than a Chevy SB for my track CommodoreB,
but I need as many cid as possible of course!
Hiro

[GTJIM]

Originally Posted by Hiro is this 3.8 a good start point for a race N/A engine? I'm looking for something a little bit lighter than a Chevy SB for my track CommodoreB, but I need as many cid as possible of course! Hiro

In your neck of the woods (close to the UK) it would be hard to go past the Range Rover alloy V8 with up to 5.2 litres available from Rimmer Bros or one of the other UK specialists - It was a GM motor in the first place ....

Rover V8 Engine Parts Spares & Accessories - Rimmer Bros

The only other real light V8 alternative is the Lexus alloy V8 - we get them here 2nd hand out of Japan - just the motors - for use in Jet Boats and Toyota Hi-Lux conversions. They are an awsome DOHC motor - 4.0/4.3 & 4.5 litres with up to 500 HP once tuned ... and extremely strong.

Lexus-Toyota V8 Performance Forum

.:: www.Boosted Performance.co.nz ::.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by GTJIM In your neck of the woods (close to the UK) it would be hard to go past the Range Rover alloy V8 with up to 5.2 litres available from Rimmer Bros or one of the other UK specialists - It was a GM motor in the first place .... Rover V8 Engine Parts Spares & Accessories - Rimmer Bros The only other real light V8 alternative is the Lexus alloy V8 - we get them here 2nd hand out of Japan - just the motors - for use in Jet Boats and Toyota Hi-Lux conversions. They are an awsome DOHC motor - 4.0/4.3 & 4.5 litres with up to 500 HP once tuned ... and extremely strong. Lexus-Toyota V8 Performance Forum .:: www.Boosted Performance.co.nz ::.

well the Rover V8 for sure is a nice & light engine,
but it's quite difficult to find a core here & race parts are expensive compared to the Chevy SB.
my race regulation will not allow a swap with other modern V6 or V8,
I have to stick as close as possible to the original Steimetz "Jumbo" CommodoreB from 1973:
Retro Racing Opel Club :: Connexion

[Phoenix]

Hiro, the 3.8 is already Supercharged, and the fact that it's a v6 already makes it lighter than most v8 but I don't know how much it weighs.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Phoenix Hiro, the 3.8 is already Supercharged, and the fact that it's a v6 already makes it lighter than most v8 but I don't know how much it weighs.

yes one post said the 3.8 weight would be like 60lbs more than the CIH4cyl,
problem is I'm not allowed to race it with the blower,
so I have to go the N/A route anyway...
advices welcome!

[GTJIM]

Holden use a 3.6L V6 that is all alloy now-days .... there is a supercharged version and a normally aspirated version too. I think it is the same V6 used by Saab and Opel - all made in GM's World Engine plant in Australia !

Holden Alloytec V6

[baz]

hiro at least the SBC is in keeping with opel as it was used in one model , i forget which maybe the admiral or commodore

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by baz hiro at least the SBC is in keeping with opel as it was used in one model , i forget which maybe the admiral or commodore

Admiral and Diplomat were both available with either the 283 or the 327 Chevy engines, updated for German Autobahn cruising. All the prototype small blocks GM sent to Opel failed within 1 hour as they were not made for extended flat-out high speed use. The good part about that is that the upgrades found their way into all the later SBC's!

[oldopelguy]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Admiral and Diplomat were both available with either the 283 or the 327 Chevy engines.

My understanding was that having a V8 was most of what made the Diplomat different than the Admiral. Regardless, if I didn't already have a 3.9+L CIH for my Admiral you can sure bet it would be getting my room-mate's "spare" LS6!

[jeff denton]

The Lextreme site Jim linked us to is fascinating. I didn't know this engine family had that potential, and was being swapped commonly.
This should be a very closely studied possiblity. Other than the ethics of having a Jap motor in a German car, you know. I just kind of like the all-GM way of thinking....
I'd still like to see an aluminum (aftermarket version of the) Buick GN 3.8 put in a GT!!!
I totally dig Ricky's 215 swap, too.
But for total extreme brutality one must seriously consider the LS series V8s available in crate form, specifically for swapping. You just have to see the Solstice that Hot Rod Mag keeps working on. For them to consider it the most amazing car they've ever built is saying something! If you've believed testimony over the last forty years about the performance of Shelby's legendary Cobras, guess what, this Solstice blows them away.
These tiny cars having that magical 427 cubic inches of displacement
(in Solstice's case a small block) just reek of insane capability to knock you back in the seat so hard you won't forget it. Which is how it works, how many of us have driven or ridden in a car that truly does get up and go, no BS, truly a sub-eleven second quarter mile ride? It makes you crave a ride in a nine second car... to go quicker than that you have to be a pro racer.

[Hiro]

well I think I'll be back to the Chevy SB for my Jumbo CommoB project,
modern V6 & V8 plants are not allowed in my race regulation (at least not the first year the car sits in the pits...),
and the 3.8 V6 doesn't look so promising due to lack of cheap race parts...

[Lindsay]

Nice looking GT with Chevrolet V8:
eBay Motors: Opel : 1900 (item 250116461079 end time May-26-07 10:49:24 PDT)

If it will fit into GT, more room in Manta or larger vehicles.

[Phoenix]

That looks like a very good transpant. Fitting, I mean.

V8 swaps come along a lot, at a rate of about one a month. Not all of them take the care that that particular one did. It shows and that is why that one went for almost 2 twice what I have seen some go for and half again others.

Eveyone knows that V8 swaps are a tricky situation and if not done properly with care, can cause more problems then they are worth. The body for a GT has to be modified and there in is a problem. You start cutting out the things that help stabilize the body and support the weight of the stock engine. Then you put a heavier engine in with more power/torque and not enough precaution about strengthening the car.

Personally, I wouldn't want a GT modifed for another engine. Too many unknowns, too much work to make work. I admire them and have seen ones which were done right. This applies for smaller engines as well.

I have worked on my Uncles Asconas for so long that I had gotten used to the room under the hood of them. So much so, that when I got to work on my GT, I was conscience of the cramped quarter. I really do want a Manta though and just thought with what the 3.8SC had to offer would be an affordable choice, which would be conscience of the space even in the Manta/Ascona body. I don't think that it's a pipe dream and I could talk about swap that could probubly be done all day, IF.....I had a stack of cash that I had already started to burning. Performance parts for it are on the very expensive side, but when swapping that might have to be the least of your worries. Cart before the horse and all. Naturally, it maybe a deciding factor but with claims of 300 and 350 horse from an engine that is much lighter than a SCB, I think that it maybe very worth the money for them.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Lindsay Nice looking GT with Chevrolet V8: eBay Motors: Opel : 1900 (item 250116461079 end time May-26-07 10:49:24 PDT) If it will fit into GT, more room in Manta or larger vehicles.

yes the SB is too heavy for a GT,
but not for a CommodoreB which has the 6 cyl CIH from stock,
I think I will try just for fun...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Holden use a 3.6L V6 that is all alloy now-days .... there is a supercharged version and a normally aspirated version too. I think it is the same V6 used by Saab and Opel - all made in GM's World Engine plant in Australia ! Holden Alloytec V6

very tempting Jim!
but too modern for a "vintage like" race Trophee like the one I race,
hum... maybe if I never open the hood in the pits...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by baz hiro at least the SBC is in keeping with opel as it was used in one model , i forget which maybe the admiral or commodore

yes Baz Admiral & Diplomat had the V8 but not the Commodore except this Steinmetz "Jumbo" prototype,
my race regulation allows to build & race "historical evocations" of the 70's,
so my claim would be "a CommodoreB fitted with a Diplomat 5.4 engine ressembling the Steinmetz Jumbo prototype",
this should be OK as far as I don't bother the top10 racers...

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Admiral and Diplomat were both available with either the 283 or the 327 Chevy engines, updated for German Autobahn cruising. All the prototype small blocks GM sent to Opel failed within 1 hour as they were not made for extended flat-out high speed use. The good part about that is that the upgrades found their way into all the later SBC's!

yes at the time the european road test conditions were quite harsh,
I also heard that the SB oil pan had a too small oil capacity,
this was not OK with the servicing conditions here,
lots of cars in the 60's scaresely had an regular oil change at all!

[Lindsay]

I agree ... keep the GT engine OPEL, maybe bigger than 1.9, but still OPEL. I will be anxious to see Ron's V6 conversion (almost completed). Althought he lives less than 30 miles away, just haven't made the trip. Sooner or later, Ron will drive it to an Opel meet.

I am on my 3rd GT since 1972, and still remember them when new. For the most part, mine is mostly stock, except for different wheels. Still have AM Radio with one speaker. Still need to start & finish front brake upgrade.

[saxybiker]

Originally Posted by Phoenix V8 swaps come along a lot, at a rate of about one a month. Not all of them take the care that that particular one did. It shows and that is why that one went for almost 2 twice what I have seen some go for and half again others..

Agreed, that was very well done. The top bid on that was under $15,000. He probably had between $45,000 -$60,000 in the car. Doing a v8 transplant in a GT is not for the faint of heart. It requires too much $$, perseverence and time (6 years for us). The engine weight difference can be mediated somewhat with the aluminum heads... my engine shipping weight was 430 lbs (including crate), but then there is the transmission, which is much heavier than the Opel one.

My advice to anyone wanting to do a v8 transplant... buy one like that the red one already referenced. It will save you $$ and lots of headaches. But...I think mine is really worth it (take a peek)

http://www.opelgt.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/11645


Vickie

[Phoenix]

Vickie, your is one of the best, if not the best, that I have ever seen. But I know that care was taken on the initial build and then taken back apart and reworked the way that you wanted and with extra concern taken knowing what you guys know about Opels. Waaay too much time and money then I would ever think about putting into such an endeaver.

For hoping up a GT, I really only care to take as much effort as putting a 2.4 in with all the proper internals.

[Phoenix]

This is what I'm talking about, right here.

44,000 on motor and trans. 1500 takes it home. 93s had the good front spindles that allow for the 13in Cobra front brake upgrade.