60 degree V6 Donors and parts

[strassed]

I see tons of talk about the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 V6 engine and 5 speed manual tranny swap and am entertaining the idea for my GT. In the interest of saving time, frustration and money, can one of the experts take the time to put together a comprehensive list of donor vehicles and the parts to get?

Is a longitudinal engine (RWD) the only style that will work?

I've checked out wiki GM 60-Degree V6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and this list is great. Love the equipped vehicle and hp info. But after the Gen I discussion, its unclear which engines are longitudinal.

The 60 degree V6 website 60ºV6 Family Tree - 60DegreeV6.com speaks to engine models, feature changes and output, but not to equipped models. Nor does it mention engine models.

[baz]

you need to read the "willit" threads from ron (namba 209) for all your answers BUT read this first
http://www.opelgt.com/forums/news/22...-namba209.html
and ask questions accordingly

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by strassed I see tons of talk about the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 V6 engine and 5 speed manual tranny swap and am entertaining the idea for my GT. In the interest of saving time, frustration and money, can one of the experts take the time to put together a comprehensive list of donor vehicles and the parts to get? Is a longitudinal engine (RWD) the only style that will work?

You will need an engine from a Camaro/Firebird or an S-10 truck. You also want the transmission from a Camaro/Firebird since they have better ratios and the shifter is in a position which is closer to stock.

I have done this swap many times until I got to the point of doing the work in just one weekend. I developed a special set of headers made for the GT and you use High Energy Ignition's chevy doughnut style motor mounts.

If you want a performance crate engine, like the one's we use, check out this site:

A.R.I. Engines GM 60-degree V6 - History & Information

A standard crate engine comes with 135HP and 160Lbs of torque, more than enough for an Opel. You can also go all out with a 3.8L but that requires a bit more work.

Just take a look at my animal.
http://www.opelgt.com/forums/6b-cool...tml#post184995

[strassed]

Baz

Thanks for the info but what I didn't want to do (and with respect to the awesome Namba 209) was wade through years of posts and threads.

I want the info in a nutshell but more info than blancojp - although his post is a great start.

2.8, 3.1 or 3.4 from X year Chevy Camaro, firebird or S-10,
Tranny from X year Camaro or Firebird for best gearing but need the tail housing from ?
Clutch from ?
Drive shaft/torque tube from?
What do I need to adapt the chevy tranny to Opel axle?

Someone has to have this down to a science!

BTW blancojp - If I'm going to go through the expense, time and pain in the butt to install a V-6 i'm going to have to have more ponies than 135! I'm thinking more near 200!

Thanks for the post, but if you have more info I would like to see it.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by strassed Baz Thanks for the info but what I didn't want to do (and with respect to the awesome Namba 209) was wade through years of posts and threads. I want the info in a nutshell but more info than blancojp - although his post is a great start. 2.8, 3.1 or 3.4 from X year Chevy Camaro, firebird or S-10, Tranny from X year Camaro or Firebird for best gearing but need the tail housing from ? Clutch from ? Drive shaft/torque tube from? What do I need to adapt the chevy tranny to Opel axle? Someone has to have this down to a science! BTW blancojp - If I'm going to go through the expense, time and pain in the butt to install a V-6 i'm going to have to have more ponies than 135! I'm thinking more near 200! Thanks for the post, but if you have more info I would like to see it.

In have done over 10 conversions using the 2.8L or the 3.1L but I like the stroker 3.4L engine the best. At 135HP, the GT has a power to weight ratio of 16lbs/hp; which is very close to that of an LS1 Corvette.

1) You can use any 60 degree V6 from any year as long as it is rear wheel drive. You take the existing motor crossmember and cut the center section off so the oil pan fits. You will also need my headers since otherwise you will have a space problem. If the engine has a distributor then you will need to modify the wiper channel to have access to the distributor for service.
2) You can use any T5 transmission from either a camaro or firebird. The S-10 gear box has a high ratio on first gear making it unusable. The tranny crossmember is just a bar across with a poly GM mount.
3) You will need an Opel driveshaft and replace the Opel transmision yoke with a T5 yoke.
4) If you are going over 150HP and over 6000Rpm's, you will need new brakes, poly bushings all around and a new rear end. You can install an S-10 GU-06 unit which has posi and also requires a camaro torque bar adapted. You will then use a shortened and balanced S-10 driveshaft to complete the install. Opels have a three link rear suspension system and most cars have a 4 link. This means there will be no twisting on the body due to exceding torque therefore the body is nimble.

And if you decide to go with Fuel Injection, rewire the car using a new style fuse block, make sure you get the ECU and all wiring from the car you got the engine from, have the ECU reprogrammed and add a MAP module.

The list goes on and on so I believe this will give you a good primer where to start.

I hope this helps!

[Gary]

Namba209's V6 conversion is summarized in six phases here: Performance Articles - The Classic Opel Forums

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by strassed I see tons of talk about the 2.8, 3.1 and 3.4 V6 engine and 5 speed manual tranny swap and am entertaining the idea for my GT. In the interest of saving time, frustration and money,

Let's try and put this another way.
You want to go fast? How much money do you have?
We can set you up with a monster motor for only six figures. With an V-6 only in the fives.

Now the fours can make 130 RW much cheaper and are tons more fun to drive on a twisting road.
Just my thoughts

[strassed]

Gary - Namba209 never says what his donor vehicles are and what he used from each vehicle...

And Wrench 459 - That is what I am trying to figure out... My target is ~200hp. Now I need to shop my local market to see what I can afford. Need to know the donor vehicles and what I need off them.

So far it looks like the 93 - 95 camaro or firebird is the best to start with due to transmission gearing better than S-10s. In my market (St Louis) there are a few $400 - $500 dollar camaros...
get it out of my driveway tonight
95 camaro runs but bad body damage. good engine and tranny
1992 chevy camaro

there are more expensive but in better shape donors
MUST SELL-1994 chevy camaro-127xxx mi-5spd-6cyl

Am I on the right track with these vehicles realizing they do need work before transplant?

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Let's try and put this another way. You want to go fast? How much money do you have? We can set you up with a monster motor for only six figures. With an V-6 only in the fives. Now the fours can make 130 RW much cheaper and are tons more fun to drive on a twisting road. Just my thoughts

Wrench, the V6 is about the same weight as the 1.9L so the front suspension will not suffer, performance and driveability should remain the same.

Here is the following tranny data:

TRANSMISSION GEAR RATIOS COMPARISON
GM T-5 Standard V8 / GM T-5 Standard S-10 / GM T-5 Optional
Max torque 275 lb ft / Max torque 225 lb ft / Max torque 300 lb ft
1ST - 2.95:1 / 3.97:1 / 3.35:1
2ND - 1.94:1 / 2.34:1 / 1.99:1
3RD - 1.34:1 / 1.46:1 / 1.33:1
4TH - 1.00:1 / 1.00:1 / 1.00:1
5TH - 0.73:1 / 0.79:1 / 0.68:1

There are optional 5th gear ratios that are matched to the final gear ratio on the optional T-5 as found on the Extreme or SS models. Information taken from How to Tune and Modify Your Camero 1982-1998 By Jason Scoot.

The problem is the torque tube shaft which destroys itself after 6000Rpms. With higher HP there is the possibility of higher Rpms in the final drive therefore the rear end must be revised.

And it isbetter if you get the complete car, that way you will have the ECU and the wiring if it is fuel injected.

[strassed]

How about this 3.6 V6 w/ a six speed manual out of a caddy?

2005 WHITE Cadillac CTS

[baz]

going to rip a gt apart with that one , only thing you would keep would be the skin every thing else would need changing from the rockers down , rear end would die so would need new , front end would need new to carry it and weight up front would make the poor thing handle like a greasy pig

if all you want is fast in a straight line it would be fine but at the first corner slow to 10 mph at most lol

i was going to put a 300 bhp V12 in mine but to do it i was going to remove the body from the rockers up and drop it onto the floor pan of the donor so every thing was a matched set from wheel to wheel

the opel sigma layout might work doing that but we always advise to use a donor gt ( only good for body parts [skin] )to work with on these as its a shame to lose a good one to a project that could end up as junk when cash and talent run out


btw as we dont know your skills level whats your budget for the project , $ 25 -30000 is what i worked out i would need if i could not do it all on my own and had to pay to get it done professionally and that was scrimping on most of the work

[strassed]

Wow, Is the 3.6 that much different than a 3.4? Is the 3.6 a different block?

I looked up the 3.6 and the 6-speed on a car parts site and they are running about $3,000 and $1,500 respectively. I know I would need more parts than just the engine and tranny off the car tho.

I do have some mechanical skills but haven't turned a wrench professionally or in depth as a hobby in decades. Yeah, I know ... lots has changed. I lost interest for a while but am finding the idea of modernizing my GT appealing.

V-12 from what? Viper? Jag?

Thanks for the info Baz.

[strassed]

Originally Posted by blancojp In have done over 10 conversions using the 2.8L or the 3.1L but I like the stroker 3.4L engine the best. At 135HP, the GT has a power to weight ratio of 16lbs/hp; which is very close to that of an LS1 Corvette.

10 conversions? Holy smokes! so how much does an average swap to a 3.4/5 speed cost?

[kwilford]

Originally Posted by strassed Wow, Is the 3.6 that much different than a 3.4? Is the 3.6 a different block?

The CTS 3.6 is a totally different engine. DOHC vs push-rod OHV, 4 valves per cylinder vs two, and much more. About the only similarity I can see in the documentation is that they are both 60 degree vee's (although the first generation CTS 3.2 was the older Opel 54 degree V6)

Originally Posted by strassed V-12 from what? Viper? Jag?

Baz is from England, and the V-12 was from a Jag (XJ-S IIRC). And Vipers are V-10's, FWIW.

HTH

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by strassed 10 conversions? Holy smokes! so how much does an average swap to a 3.4/5 speed cost?

We charge $6,500.00 out the door.

[californiagting]

I was wondering if the aluminum headed FWD motor will fit with the starter on the drivers side. Can you move the starter motor to the opposite side of the engine like they do when they put a RWD engine in a Fiero? Juan, have you ever used a FWD engine? I have a line on a 3.4 out of 2000 Pontiac Gran Am. Gen III with bigger valves and larger injectors for $150.00.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by californiagting I was wondering if the aluminum headed FWD motor will fit with the starter on the drivers side. Can you move the starter motor to the opposite side of the engine like they do when they put a RWD engine in a Fiero? Juan, have you ever used a FWD engine? I have a line on a 3.4 out of 2000 Pontiac Gran Am. Gen III with bigger valves and larger injectors for $150.00.

FWD unit will not work due to bellhousing problems. The S-10 bellhousing does have provisions for both sides starter mounting.

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by blancojp the V6 is about the same weight as the 1.9L so the front suspension will not suffer, performance and driveability should remain the same.

Here I am removing weight from the frontend with the 1.9 in an effort to keep the car from understeering.
Oh well different strokes for different folks.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Here I am removing weight from the frontend with the 1.9 in an effort to keep the car from understeering. Oh well different strokes for different folks.

Last time I checked, the difference was 28Lbs to double factory HP.

[strassed]

Blanco

Realizing the year Camaro/Firebird we are theoretically using for a donor (93-95), don't most of these come with A/C?

My GT has A/C. Any idea if they are compatible systems?

Does the compressor stay after one of your conversions? Or do you do an alternate drive belt routing?

I saw the pics of your install and it looks great. Probably a little too close to the left inner fender for my Frigidaire A/C compressor. Its so big it takes up half the eng compartment!

The a/c hasn't worked since I bought the gt in 1995, but it sure would be nice!

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by strassed Blanco Realizing the year Camaro/Firebird we are theoretically using for a donor (93-95), don't most of these come with A/C? My GT has A/C. Any idea if they are compatible systems? Does the compressor stay after one of your conversions? Or do you do an alternate drive belt routing? I saw the pics of your install and it looks great. Probably a little too close to the left inner fender for my Frigidaire A/C compressor. Its so big it takes up half the eng compartment! The a/c hasn't worked since I bought the gt in 1995, but it sure would be nice!

The new A/C compressors are R134 and the Opel was R12, they can be made compatible by changing the compressor, expansion valve and dryer. I would can the compressor and use the one that came with the engine. You might have to move things around since the GT has limited room however it does all fit snuggly inside the engine bay.

I changed my compressor to a Sanden 505 since it is about the same size as an alternator. I also have the brake booster mounted on the firewall so it does look a bit crowded.

When you install a V6 on a GT, you will need to re-think a few things since there are constraints you must overcome:
1) The first thing will be to lower the motor mounts on both sides to 9" so the engine will sit level.
2) The second is to cut the center of the engine crossmember off, you don't need it for this application and the oil pan will be sitting in there.
3) The new motor mounts will be 17" appart (approx.) and you might need to rework the passenger side motor mount since some engines have un-even bracket mounts. Don't worry about the GM motor mounts and go straight to Energy Ignition bisquit mounts, you will thank me later.

The V-6 you are using is a 15" block, that is it measures 15"x15"x15" without the heads, oil pan and valve covers. Your exhaust also needs to go straight down and you can't use the factory exhaust manifolds due to interference. Some people just turns them around, use the right manifold on the left side and so on comming out the front. That will not work with an A/C equipped car since the accessories are on the way.

If you have not done this before, you will have a good challenge ahead of you. I would recommend you stop by Harbor Freight tools and buy one of their sheet metal benders since you will have to make a few patch panels as you go along.

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by blancojp The new A/C compressors are R134 and the Opel was R12, they can be made compatible by changing the compressor, expansion valve and dryer.

You'll also need to get a high efficiency condensor to get ice cold air with
R134a.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by wrench459 You'll also need to get a high efficiency condensor to get ice cold air with R134a.

You will need this only if you keep the original expansion valve.

[strassed]

Originally Posted by blancojp The new A/C compressors are R134 and the Opel was R12, they can be made compatible by changing the compressor, expansion valve and dryer. I would can the compressor and use the one that came with the engine. You might have to move things around since the GT has limited room however it does all fit snuggly inside the engine bay. I changed my compressor to a Sanden 505 since it is about the same size as an alternator. I also have the brake booster mounted on the firewall so it does look a bit crowded. The V-6 you are using is a 15" block, that is it measures 15"x15"x15" without the heads, oil pan and valve covers. Your exhaust also needs to go straight down and you can't use the factory exhaust manifolds due to interference. Some people just turns them around, use the right manifold on the left side and so on comming out the front. That will not work with an A/C equipped car since the accessories are on the way. If you have not done this before, you will have a good challenge ahead of you. I would recommend you stop by Harbor Freight tools and buy one of their sheet metal benders since you will have to make a few patch panels as you go along.

Blanco & Wrench

~ Awesome info! ~

I'll look into the biscuit mounts. I'm still shopping for my donor Camaro. I think I have a good lead on a salvage company that will work with me on S-10 parts.

Dumping the Frigidaire compressor would def open the eng compartment a bit and allow some access to the brake booster.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by strassed Blanco & Wrench ~ Awesome info! ~ I'll look into the biscuit mounts. I'm still shopping for my donor Camaro. I think I have a good lead on a salvage company that will work with me on S-10 parts. Dumping the Frigidaire compressor would def open the eng compartment a bit and allow some access to the brake booster.

My next V-6 powered car will be using a FWD engine mated to the original Opel transmission. If it can be done easily, it will resolve the shifter problem and a few other problems along the way.