Mid Engine Ecotec 2.2 Conversion in a GT

[Tire Fryin GT]

Originally Posted by kwilford So here is the deal. When a member comes up with a very different, somewhat off-the-wall idea, we ALL take a deep breath and listen to what it sounds like BEFORE we put our cute little fingers to work on the keyboard to reply. I will include myself in that admonishment. And if another member says a few "helpful" words, warning the first member that a very unique idea, poorly executed, is just a poorly executed unique idea, the first member, remembering that the suggestion was in the best of intent (even if it sounded like a flame), deftly responds that the help is GREATLY appreciated. And carries on with the other great ideas that were put forward. The alternative is that I spend a bunch of time editing the heck out of the posts to keep the nasties off the page. Or worse, I close the thread, banish the members, and spend a lot less time moderating this site. Or, I spend NO time moderating, and spend some quality time with my wife, children, skis and Opels. In about that order. It's your call....

I am more than appreciative for ALL of the ideas and concerns that people have brought up. In fact that is the Very reason I am here now posting all the info I have. I am actively seeking out people to critisize and make recommendation on the project I am about to take on. I don't think there is a larger group of Opel GT enthusiast's that could offer more insight and suggestions than OpelGT.com.

And I hope you get to spend Many happy hours with your Wife, Kids and Opel's ... but not necassarily in that order

[nobody]

I will go on record that I was too quick to add any negative coments. Anyone willing to see it through to the end deserves all the praise in the world. I've been looking for another GT and all I find is rusted out or half done projects so I do have a small chip on my shoulder about it. In the theme of things where would you pull air for intake from?

[azzi]

Just a quick confirmation on something that has been missed. The cavalier track may be far too wide to fit under the stock bodied GT, but as per that Nova conversion I posted links to, The Driveshafts are made with a hybrid of the Cav and Nova shafts and this makes the track smaller with off the shelf (or scrap yard) parts. Taken that into consideration and the fact you can fit a 6 speed F28 gearbox that has Cable driven gear selection, A subframe that attaches via 4 bolts and 157BHP (204BHP with the Turbo version) with a standard motor. It makes you wonder why this hasn't been done before.

Have a look at the Nova and Corsa conversions here in the UK, there has been plenty of them done and even come up on Ebay every once in a while.
If its small enough to fit in the Tiny Vaux cars, its gonna fit in the GT rear no problem.

Oh and I like the idea about the opening rear, I think a access panel from the rear seat area may not be too bad either as the engine isn't that hard to work on. Infact the only item of interest on the other side of the engine will be the dipstick tube.

[Tire Fryin GT]

Originally Posted by nobody I will go on record that I was too quick to add any negative coments. Anyone willing to see it through to the end deserves all the praise in the world. I've been looking for another GT and all I find is rusted out or half done projects so I do have a small chip on my shoulder about it. In the theme of things where would you pull air for intake from?

No Problem, I have been an Opel GT enthusiast for 25 years now. Even 25 years ago when I was buying my first GT, in 1980, it was a rust bucket. And at that time the car was only 10 years old !! Out of the 9 GT's I have owned only 1 wasn't rusted out. The most important place to check for rust is the metal around the upper control arm bolt. I have had the top of the shock tower break off with the control arm attached, twice. Once at a speeds of 60 MPH. It is not fun.

As for the Air intake, essentually the engine compartment will be open from the bottom of the car. And the tranny tunnel should have a Good flow of air threw it. I figured I could extend the cold air intake down into the back of the tranny tunnel and pick up fresh air.

On the ecotec motor the exhaust is on the oposite side of the motor from the intake. I figure the exhaust will come out of the engine compartment just about where the rear of the GT pumpkin is now. That doesn't leave alot of room for a muffler and cat. I may need to move the gas tank up front anyways and that would leave me that extra room for making an exhaust system.

[Tire Fryin GT]

Originally Posted by azzi Just a quick confirmation on something that has been missed. The cavalier track may be far too wide to fit under the stock bodied GT, but as per that Nova conversion I posted links to, The Driveshafts are made with a hybrid of the Cav and Nova shafts and this makes the track smaller with off the shelf (or scrap yard) parts. Taken that into consideration and the fact you can fit a 6 speed F28 gearbox that has Cable driven gear selection, A subframe that attaches via 4 bolts and 157BHP (204BHP with the Turbo version) with a standard motor. It makes you wonder why this hasn't been done before. Yes I believe in a previous post i mentioned that the cavalier rearend is 57.5 inches and the GT rearend is 52.5 inches. The Cavaliers wheels are offset inward and the GT wheels are inset so I think that the wheels will fit inside the wheel wells. Until I have them both in hand this is just a guess. I wouldn't have a problem running a small fender flair to cover the wheels. I don't know why this hasn't been done yet but I don't mind being first. Have a look at the Nova and Corsa conversions here in the UK, there has been plenty of them done and even come up on Ebay every once in a while. If its small enough to fit in the Tiny Vaux cars, its gonna fit in the GT rear no problem. Oh and I like the idea about the opening rear, I think a access panel from the rear seat area may not be too bad either as the engine isn't that hard to work on. Infact the only item of interest on the other side of the engine will be the dipstick tube.

I have been giving alot of thought to gaining access from the rear. And your suggestion about the whole rear fliping up like the GT40 has had me thinking alot more about it. I had never considered that before but have had the idea of the hatchback for along time (I wanted to do that 20 years ago).

With the engine compartment behind the seats and a sealed driver compartment, it leaves the rear of the car not needing to be sealed completely. It wouldn't be that hard to make the back flip up. I have attached a pic for an example. It would hinge, inside the car, across the frame rail that support the rear bumpers (heavy dotted line in pic). I could build a channel with a rubber seal, like a door seal, to keep water out. In the place on the pic where I have a circle on the rear fender, I could use a dual hood latch system (one on each side) and a single release lever. When released it would pop the rear up about an inch. Then you would be able to lift it slightly more than verticle and have access (somewhat limited) to the rear. It would make a nice Unique feature that would compliment the rear engine concept.

[azzi]

Originally Posted by Tire Fryin GT Yes I believe in a previous post i mentioned that the cavalier rearend is 57.5 inches and the GT rearend is 52.5 inches. The Cavaliers wheels are offset inward and the GT wheels are inset so I think that the wheels will fit inside the wheel wells. Until I have them both in hand this is just a guess. I wouldn't have a problem running a small fender flair to cover the wheels.

erm .. Isn't that the other way around ?

If you fit GT wheels on a Cavalier the offset turns from inner to outer, Hence it will make the Outside dimensions bigger.

The Cavalier wheels in the UK have a -49 offset (Studs closer to outside of the rim), so running the Cav wheels on the GT will still make it too big at the standard cavalier width, even worse of you fit the GT wheels.

or are your dimension of the HUB to HUB width? in that case you may be right.

[Tire Fryin GT]

The dimensions are both from online sources. I believe the GT dimensions are found in a thread on this site about IRS conversion. The Cavalier dimensions are from a PDF download about the car. The Cavalier I believe has a 5 lug wheel while the GT has 4. I was not planning on using GT wheels. I would like to use the Cavalier wheels and somehow upgrade the frontend to take the 5 lugs, that part of the plan isn't even a thought yet.

Until I have a Cavalier to measure it is all guess work and speculation.

[garrymc]

This may be of interest...

http://opelgt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761

[baz]

tf ( a name would be so nice )
im in my local junk yard tomorrow if theres a uk cavalier/vectra in and an opel kadett or opel nova (as azzi said they are a lot narrower) in i will get dimensions and pics do you have photoshop ? if so i will add a 12" rule to give you a scale to work to (guess who watched the bone collector today )
i will also get the strut hight that bob was asking about + thought this might help

[Tire Fryin GT]

Garrymc ... Thanks, i will explore that more.

Baz, The Cavalier will have to be 2003 or newer for correct dimensions. And I do have Photoshop, and a plasma torch, mig welder, tig welder and many other tools that will Force fit the Cavalier suspension in the back of the GT one way or another. The more I think about the possiblities, the closer this gets to reality. I will have a GT with a rear 2.2 16V Ecotec Mounted and running in 1 year or less !! May not be complete or road worthy at that stage but that will just be a matter of time.

I am going to look for a rust bucket parts car that I can cut up and test fit ideas on.

Thanks for all the great Idea's so far ... Keep them coming
Georges

[namba209]

Georges, a bit of advice, if you don't mind. Don't put a time on when you will have something done on your project. You'll never meet it, and if you try to meet the deadline, you will screw something up. Much better to be way beyond a target date and have everything done right, than to be on time and the project is unsafe. I've set numerous target dates on my V-6/T-5 conversion and others have had target dates on their projects, some made, lots didn't. The point being, there are not a whole lot of us Opel Nuts or cars out there and one lost is one too many because of "hurryupitis". That term is a close relation to the "GetHomeitis" that has cost many folks a lot of grief. Be slow, be safe, be sure.

[azzi]

OK, a few things didn't ring true , so I did a little checking.

You said a POST 2003 Cavalier. As the Vauxhall Cavalier (Opel Vectra A) was stopped in 1995(ish) in the UK I assumed that you maybe were talking about the Opel Vectra C 2.2 Ecotec engine instead. Its the same family and everything I have been talking about is the same on this engine as the older model.

BUT ... after a little look on ebay.com I came this Chevy Cavalier with the 2 enclosed pics of the engine bay.

If this is the car you are using as a doner vehicle, I really cannot be sure its the same beast.

At the very least it may be a simple rockercover change, But it may be a totally different engine and transmission altogether.

If its totally different, then the simple subframe assembly, driveshafts etc ... that make this conversion easy, may not be avaliable on that US model.

Some clarification please ?

[jeff denton]

I like the GT40 engine cover idea. The whole body of Speedway GT from the doors back pops off in a matter of minutes, it could be done in a more "finished" style with hinges and latches. Probably just like a GT 40 which, I'm afraid I've never had the pleasure to inspect...
When we built Speedway GT we basically removed the body a piece at a time, gutting it all down to a chassis with a floor and firewall attached. Structural integrity was then less than zero, of course. The complex rollcage system from bumper to bumper then put back the strength (times ten), its outer dimensions were shaped such that the bare body skins fit right over the "skeleton". From this stage ANYTHING could be done in terms of engine, trans, rear end. Anything added is just tied in to the rollcage/floor/frame mounting points. You will want to copy our "rear firewall" sealing off the driver from the "trunk".
I can't wait to see this. Wanna do it in my shop? There is room, sometimes...

[jeff denton]

Oh, Keith, that was very nicely put! Something on that subject should go on the homepage for a while. Not that I think there is really that much trouble, just to remind people to think before they type and to be nice.
Basically, I suppose that a lot of such wild ideas are the whackings-off of bright young dreamers who could maybe sketch an abstract picture of it but wouldn't have a clue which end of the screwdriver to hold.
Then come the purists who would be horrified at the thought of cutting up a perfectly junked out GT instead of painstakingly restoring it right down the period correct ashtray...
Usually at least one of our fellow members finds a way to make it get hilarious sooner or later, and nobody gets hurt. Also we see some pretty awesome works of craftsmanship. Just look at that Killer GT and Roadster GT! Wow! How many priceless Opels were murdered in those shops just to make something different?
I say the bullsh** stops when the green flag drops. Our track official's wife corrects me saying, "no that's when the bu***hit STARTS!"
Anyway, let me say again, THANK YOU for this great thing called opelgt.com!!

[Gary]

Originally Posted by azzi ...If its totally different, then the simple subframe assembly, driveshafts etc ... that make this conversion easy, may not be avaliable on that US model. Some clarification please ?

Azzi - He is talking about the Chevrolet Cavalier made and sold in the U.S. Not sure if it is the same 2.2 as the Vauxhall Cavalier/Opel Vectra A.

[Tire Fryin GT]

Originally Posted by azzi OK, a few things didn't ring true , so I did a little checking. You said a POST 2003 Cavalier. As the Vauxhall Cavalier (Opel Vectra A) was stopped in 1995(ish) in the UK I assumed that you maybe were talking about the Opel Vectra C 2.2 Ecotec engine instead. Its the same family and everything I have been talking about is the same on this engine as the older model. BUT ... after a little look on ebay.com I came this Chevy Cavalier with the 2 enclosed pics of the engine bay. Yes the pics look like the engine that I am planing on using If this is the car you are using as a doner vehicle, I really cannot be sure its the same beast. At the very least it may be a simple rockercover change, But it may be a totally different engine and transmission altogether. If its totally different, then the simple subframe assembly, driveshafts etc ... that make this conversion easy, may not be avaliable on that US model. Some clarification please ?

I am not sure about the rest. But that is what I am going to use. The entire drivetrain as well as the engine compartment.

[azzi]

Originally Posted by Tire Fryin GT I am not sure about the rest. But that is what I am going to use. The entire drivetrain as well as the engine compartment.

Yeah, I was afraid about that.

Never mind its achievable with a little thought and a lot of planning.

I can understand some members not wanting to see another GT being butchered , but without such members taking things into their own hands, you wouldn't have such cars as Malcom Yaxleys GT (YXY), Chris Farleys Targa GT (RHD, V8 Engine, Kadett B Dash) or even Destec's Aero GT. All of which are highly modified and regarded.

A agree that a good good place to start would be to look at that speedway GT and see how they have done things.

On a personal note and not opel related, were in the middle of converting a 1971 Ford Escort Mk1 for track use, but instead of just junking a Sierra cosworth engine in the Bay its going to run the full Sierra 4x4 system and suspension. I can see simularities in they way we are doing it and the way the Speedway GT was done.

The Escort was fitted with a weld-in cage and extra strenthening bars were placed in to make almost a space frame arrangment. This was to make sure that when the floor was cut out there was no movement in the shell until the complete sierra floorpan was placed in. Once the floor was in the upper shell is to be removed and the upper suspension mounts and inner wings are to be modified to hide under the standard bodywork.

I know it sounds a lot simpler than it really is, but my partner in crime is the Body Shell guy at the local Ford WRC factory and every shell has something silly like 40,000 man hours to convert from a STD ford Focus to WRC spec. (It then takes a just a week to finish the car to competition ready) what he cannot do with a bodyshell isn't worth mentioning, but needless to say its took him about 3 months planning before the first cut was made on the Escort.

[Tire Fryin GT]

Originally Posted by namba209 Georges, a bit of advice, if you don't mind. Don't put a time on when you will have something done on your project. You'll never meet it, and if you try to meet the deadline, you will screw something up. Much better to be way beyond a target date and have everything done right, than to be on time and the project is unsafe. I've set numerous target dates on my V-6/T-5 conversion and others have had target dates on their projects, some made, lots didn't. The point being, there are not a whole lot of us Opel Nuts or cars out there and one lost is one too many because of "hurryupitis". That term is a close relation to the "GetHomeitis" that has cost many folks a lot of grief. Be slow, be safe, be sure.

Thanks for the advice.

I am fairly skilled and have the tools and the support to do a job like this. I try not to set unreasonable goals. I picked a year as my target because I think that is WAY more than needed. But if I don't meet that goal it is not a problem for me. I will not rush the job and compromise safety, especially MY safety !! The last thing I want to do send a good GT to the junkyard half completed. My plan is to find a Junk GT and do the complete swap with the exception of welding it in. This way I can cut and make mistakes and not have to worry about it. When the final fitment is good and I like the whole idea and it seems as if it will "fly" then I will start in on the GT I plan to keep.

Bottom line is that I like to have a goals and I don't mind the inevitable setback. I just got a new Digital Camera and the pictures should be plentiful for anyone that wants to follow along or make suggestions. I am really looking forward to this project as I have missed my GT's for years now. As the saying goes "if I only knew then what I know now".