Flow numbers for FI stuff

[davegt27]

Hi all back from the Middle east


Question anyone have flow numbers for Opel FI parts?

like the Throttle Body or the intake manifold


thanks
David

[RallyBob]

On what type of head? With which airflow meter?.....1.9 or 2.0?

[davegt27]

1.9 head stock valves, stock unmodified FI TB =?CFM


don't need info on AFM


thanks in advance

Davegt27

[houserc]

I have been looking up some information for some problems I am currently having with my F.I.

Here are some links that might help you out some.


http://www.student.kun.nl/p.oonincx/...jectordata.pdf

http://www.opeltuners.com/injection2...injection.html

http://<a href="http://carsoft.co.il...ta%20Table.htm

You should be looking at the Bosch 0 280 150 205 for yellow or 0 280 150 105 for grey injectors.

Hope this helps.

Chris

[houserc]

I just realized the last link got chopped.

Let's try it again.

"http://carsoft.co.il/page3/Electronic%20Fuel%20Injector(EFI)%20Flow%20Data%20 Table.htm"

That's all one link.

[Gary]

Tried to fix the link but Vb Code does not like brackets ( ). You will need to copy and paste the link to your browser. There's great info there.

[RallyBob]

Originally posted by davegt27 1.9 head stock valves, stock unmodified FI TB =?CFM don't need info on AFM

Dave, what are your plans? Stand-alone FI, therefore no AFM?
I presume then you need the flow numbers of the bare head, then the intake, then the TB to show the effect each has on the other. My only concern is I don't think I have any 1.9 Opel heads with stock valves to flow test. I'll pull out the flow bench this week, I have to test a new prototype intake I built for a 2.4 head anyway.

[RallyBob]

Originally posted by houserc You should be looking at the Bosch 0 280 150 205 for yellow or 0 280 150 105 for grey injectors.

Chris, I believe Dave was looking for the airflow numbers for the FI intake manifold, not the fuel flow numbers for the injectors. But thanks for the info.

[davegt27]

Dave, what are your plans? Stand-alone FI, therefore no AFM?


yep stand alone is the way to go

I have a stock unmodified 1.5 head if you want to test it

let me know


houserc thanks for the links

hey what kind of problems are you having maybe we can Help


Davegt27

[houserc]

RallyBob,
It sounded like Dave was looking for the airflow and not the fuel flow, but I like to document information where I can find it easier and this was a great place for that. That, and it makes no sense for somebody else to do the digging that another person has already done.

Besides, this site has been an invaluable source of information to me, so it's my turn to add to it.

Dave,
Thanks for your interest and offer. This has been a project from day one. I'll start with where it's been and what has been done.

It PO installed FI on a 1.9 bored to 2.0 engine. When I picked up the car, he told me that the prior fuel pump was replaced before he put it on the market.

When I got the GT home, I replaced the oil and filled up the gas tank and added injector cleaner since the car had been sitting for more than 3 years. Slowly, the car started cutting out, sputtering, or missing really badly.

I had other upgrades I wanted to do and both my boys wanted to work on a car, so it was a great opportunity for them to get their hands greasy. My first thought was plugged fuel line. Sure enough, when I replaced the pre-pump filter, it was plugged almost solid. The filter it was replaced with was a plastic see-through one. That filter showed significant deposits of rust after just a couple of days. So I started with the fuel tank. I figure the injector cleaner helped the tank rust flake off.

(This was a prime example of why not to store a car with an empty fuel tank.)

The tank was removed, acid vatted, and epoxy coated by a specialist in our area. I replaced the fittings and the fuel line up to the pump with 7/16 fittings and hard line. I replaced the pump and front fuel filter, along with the pressure regulator. Now the fuel path to the injectors is from a clean tank, through 7/16 line to a Bosch pump, to a Bosch filter, then through the FI fuel line. I did find a leak in the fuel line up close to the fuel regualtor which has been replaced.

The car is still missing at about 3000 to 4000 rpm. I did replace the sparkplugs and the car is timed right on.

Now my search goes to the injectors themselves.

The problem I am also having, besides the missing, is the car is hard to start after it has warmed up. It starts right up when it is cold, so cooling down the engine will get it started right away.

So, with all that listed, I think my problem is either plugged or partially blocked injectors, or I might have a cold start injector that is leaking.

All of this led to my search for injectors, flow rates, OEM numbers, injector cleaners,etc. That was where I found the other links from.

Anyway, this has been a great lesson for my guys. Plus, it has added for some great father/son time. (They may say otherwise.)

Thanks
Chris

[davegt27]

a few questions

Is this on a GT or a Manta?

Is this a stock Manta FI fuel pump?

If its a GT how is the return line done?

Have you taken out the injectors?

Have you tried to clean injectors?

if you take one of the injectors off there is a hose end and a pintle end.
tap the hose end lightly on the pavement if stuff comes out, then there you go, it was the injectors

There is a small screen in the hose end of the injector to help keep stuff out.

if it turns out there was stuff in the injectors the cheap fix (or try to fix) is to get some finger nail polish remover and soak the injectors in that stuff (you will see stuff flake off)

sounds like you have more then one problem

the fuel line that runs from the tank to the pump on a stock 75FI Manta is a big old sucker

I could not find a replacement its like 1/2.

the stock FI pumps do not suck very well so they need all the help they can get.

so the setup runs like this

From the tank with biggest fuel line you can get to a low press fuel filter.

from the low pressure fuel filter to the FI fuel pump (got to protect that FI pump they cost big $$$)

from the FI pump with FI fuel line to the FI fuel filter (not a glass see through type)

cant remember the micron but it is pretty small

I used several types but it was a push on FI fuel filter Nissan Sentra (I want to say around 91 but I forget) also some Ford have push on FI filters.

Next:

from the FI fuel filter to the FI regulator and it does mater how its hooked up

next you must have a return line going back to the tank

remember the FI pump almost always has to be mounted below the tank or you will have problems

On the GT this can be hard to do.

Hope this helps

Davegt27

[houserc]

Dennis and Gil at Opel GT Source have been a world of help. I also picked up the Bosch FI book from them. Again, it has answered a lot of quesitons.

I'm running 7/16 ID line to the fuel pump. The fuel pump is located under the tank in front of the rear axle.

It is a GT and the return line runs into the driver side upper tank vent.

I know for sure that the fuel deliver is correct and clean and in most cases, new.

I have not removed the injectors yet. I was trying to remove all other possibilities before those. I also know I need to find replacement O rings for them before they are reinstalled. Any suggestions there would be great.

Finger nail polish remove would make sense because of the Acetone most contain.

The only thing that has not been touched is the injectors. So, that will be this weekend's project.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Let me ask another questions. I also read that the heat generated by smaller cars, in the small engine compartment, is an enemy of FI. The reason is the heat is contained and the injectors act as a heat sink, which starts some of the deposit/clogging process.

Is it a good idea, on a GT, to install a thermostat controlled electric pusher fan on the radiator to help the cool down process?

Thank you again,

Chris

[davegt27]

Sorry if it sounded like i was telling you what to do


Let me ask another questions. I also read that the heat generated by smaller cars, in the small engine compartment, is an enemy of FI. The reason is the heat is contained and the injectors act as a heat sink, which starts some of the deposit/clogging process.

No heat is not a big big problem the FI Manta's came stock with a 190 deg thermostat.

the FI actually runs better the closer to that 190 deg mark

But (here is the but) running our old Opels at 190 deg puts us to close to that oh S**T zone so I spent a lot of time looking for a 180deg thermostat.

I ran that for a few years and then Gill started selling 170 deg thermostats and I quickly bought one.

I lived in south TX at the time.

the second issue with heat is poor fuel and the injectors

Which is why they came out with the second design Bosch injectors
I think your FI book talks about it?

i bought 914 injectors for my Opel (well i thought they where 914 injectors at the time) because they where 2nd design and had a hood to protect the pintle from heat

A fan is a great idea but not as good as an AC or a flex fan

at one point i was running two elect fans and an oil cooler
and my FI GT would still overheat at an Autocross

driving around town it was fine

When I put the AC Fan back on the problems went away
but since I was autocrossing and was looking for that last bit of HP i but the elect fans back on.

HTH

Davegt27

[houserc]

Dave,

I never took what you wrote to be telling me what to do. In fact, it gave me a couple of ideas I had not thought of. And that's what this forum is all about.

Just put my response down to the fact that I'm doing it at work and, unfortunately, work has an overriding priority. That brought on the short, concise responses. Nothing else there!

This is a learning process with the FI for me and my boys.

I had a 73 GT back in the late 70's and ended up replacing the engine in 1980 due to heat warping the head and water being sucked into cylinders. So I totally understand about the heat issue. (Bad things, man!)

You know, the engine fits great in the passenger seat. Found that out on the way back to the junk yard to return the core. I bet I was the only person around with a car with no spare tire, but a spare engine in it.

I also know the history of this current car was, it sat, except for may one small drive a year, for 4 years. It wasn't even registered in the state it was in during that time period.

That was my reason for eliminating all other possibilities first.

Question; would you know where I could get a replacement set of O-rings for the injectors or what would possibly work for those? I have found several possibilities, but am not sure.

I currently have the yellow injectors in the car, so by some of the descriptions I found, they are the 0280 150 205 Bosch. I also noticed that the grey, or 0280 150 105 have a greater output of fuel, but require higher pressure.

Any thoughts on this? I have read that the grey and yellow injectors should never be replaced one for the other.

BTW, what part of Texas were you in? I'm doing work just west of Austin. Currently, the coast is preparing for Claudette to hit late Monday or early Tuesday.

Thanks for all the information,

Chris

[Sportwagon75]

Chris - I don't post here often but I happen to see your thread regarding F/I. Python Injection has a seal kit for our 75 Opels that includes everything you need. I got it over the counter at a local import shop. It even has the little plastic tips that go on the business end of the injector. (http://www.python-injection.com/) I'm not presently at home but I can get you the Python part # if you need it. Also...if you're interested, I devised an excellent method for cleaning the fuel injectors. It's posted in the Files section at the Classic Opels Yahoo group. I also have photos of the setup I use. If you'd like me to send them to you...just let me know. -Scott D.

[Paul]

I bought a new set of fuel injector O-rings through www.rockauto.com ,at the time they were $3.71. The set came with the body ring and the tip o-ring. I didn't come with the new plastic tip, however. After reading Scott's article, I did manage to remove my old plastic tips and was successful in getting the injectors unstuck and working well! One thing I did different, I used a 9 volt battery to actuate the injector while cleaning.

HTH
Paul

[houserc]

Thanks for the information.

This is a heck of a way to get an education, but it's the best way I learn.

Scott, I would be interested in seeing how your set was put together and how it worked. You can email me here or at chris@integrityconsulting.com

Thanks in advance.

Also, I went looking out on the website for python and with just a quick scan, didn't find anything. The part numbers might be helpful when you get a chance.

Chris

[davegt27]

on the injector seals it used to be the only FI part you could buy for a 75 Manta was the seals

so give Pep Boys or Napa a call


I currently have the yellow injectors in the car, so by some of the descriptions I found, they are the 0280 150 205 Bosch. I also noticed that the gray, or 0280 150 105 have a greater output of fuel, but require higher pressure.

Any thoughts on this? I have read that the gray and yellow injectors should never be replaced one for the other.


I've read and been told not to mix the two types of injectors

The yellow ones sound like the 2.0 Opel ones but I was to lazy to go over to my storage unit to check.

my thoughts are this

i read that the reason the resistor block was added was to increase the response time of the injector (Glens Opel repair manual)

i think (not sure) but the high impedance injector setup uses 5 volts to fire the injector

(actually the voltage rests on the injector and they fire the injector by putting a ground to one side of the injector)

the gray low impedance injector uses 12 volts but they use a resistor block

so you can see why you would not want to mix and match the two types

But here's the thing the older solid state 75 Opel ECU is more robust (not a chip to be found) it uses a single power transistor
as the injector driver.

so my take is it can take a lot more abuse then say a system that has small IC chips

anyway bottom line is it will work for awhile but the transistor might burn up

I think the Honda builders Handbook Part 1, talks about this also.
You can put high impedance injectors in a low impedance system but not the reverse.

you could sit down and figure the voltage drop for both setups

and then change the resistance value of the resistor block

any Engineers out there

those thoughts bring us to another thought

what if you could very the pulse time and pulse period for each injector to make it match the cyl it was feeding

Then along with individual cyl timing for each cyl of the motor the motor would run closer to optimum.

HKS has something along those lines but i haven't been able to get my hands on one (for cheap anyway)

then again getting more air through the motor is the real problem adding more fuel is easy

Davegt27

[davegt27]

found some info


http://www.sdsefi.com/features/dec02325.htm


davegt27

[baz]

hi dave just a few thoughts 4 u
you never mix injectors because they are of diffrerent volumes (the 1 exception being an enrichment or cold start injector)
your second thought about changing the impedance to fire for the cylinder that is about to spark is the diff between a normal F.I. and a sequential F.I. you would need the sequential computer to do this instead of the normal one
and to increse the fuel rail pressure all you have to do is change the fuel regulater on the rail to a higher pressure one, this will also give you a slight boost on a standard system for a little extra fuel if you do a cam change to a hotter cam