benchrace on exotic fuel

[gearheadeh]

Okay strap on your seat belts:I did a season of winter autocross(gravel and traffic cones) last winter and Iam out to be not just competitive but to WIN my problem is that with limited resources....I have 3 kids and the oldest is 5!.I need to boost my power level 3 or 4 times,So the usuall way to accomplish this is with BOOST and lots of it !.So here's my idea: get ahold of an old used hilborn fuel injection pump,bleed valves,hoses,and jets of various sizes to accomidate my project.I have an Aluminum fuel tank from an old fuel burning motorbike that should have enough capacity to get through the 3/4 of a mile circuit.my idea was to start off with straight Alcohol and then start adding higher and higher percentiges of NITROMETHANEThe only mod. I envisioned was an MSD 6 ignition box and coil.my bottum end is pretty good with forged con rods so I was hoping to leave the engine alone with 9 to 1 compression.I would expect to at the least pop a head gaskit,but I feel it is worth a try. Right about now you are gonna say put on nitrous oxide and be done with it. Unfortunately it is not recomended to use nitrous at engine speeds below 3500 rpm. I need as much bottom end torque as possible at low engine speeds.So turbo lag wouldn't help either!.anybody with alternative fuel expereince on small engines?.

[jeff denton]

Well the first thing you're gonna want to do is bulletproof the bottom end, I suggest (at least) Crower Sportsman Rods. You'll need custom pistons to use those rods, Venolia has a few recipes in their books.
Then you want something better than stock head bolts, trust me. I'll spare you the story. This will be custom work. Call me when you figure out where they come from, I'll take a set, too.
Then comes the clutch upgrade, you need the S10 model. Then the transmission, the Getrag is popular here. For the rear end you should study the Camaro/Saginaw 10-bolt.
When this is all done and you're out there winning trophies, you'll want to join the Opel Racers Club here at gt.com.
Best of luck! When you're in town this summer come check out the races.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by gearheadeh Okay strap on your seat belts:I did a season of winter autocross(gravel and traffic cones) last winter and Iam out to be not just competitive but to WIN my problem is that with limited resources....I have 3 kids and the oldest is 5!.I need to boost my power level 3 or 4 times,So the usuall way to accomplish this is with BOOST and lots of it !.So here's my idea: get ahold of an old used hilborn fuel injection pump,bleed valves,hoses,and jets of various sizes to accomidate my project.I have an Aluminum fuel tank from an old fuel burning motorbike that should have enough capacity to get through the 3/4 of a mile circuit.my idea was to start off with straight Alcohol and then start adding higher and higher percentiges of NITROMETHANEThe only mod. I envisioned was an MSD 6 ignition box and coil.my bottum end is pretty good with forged con rods so I was hoping to leave the engine alone with 9 to 1 compression.I would expect to at the least pop a head gaskit,but I feel it is worth a try. Right about now you are gonna say put on nitrous oxide and be done with it. Unfortunately it is not recomended to use nitrous at engine speeds below 3500 rpm. I need as much bottom end torque as possible at low engine speeds.So turbo lag wouldn't help either!.anybody with alternative fuel expereince on small engines?.

For boost down low a supercharger is the way to go. ITB with alcohol/water injection and the rest of the engine built to handle high levels of forced induction will probably get you what you are looking for. Granted at these power levels your transmission and rear axle aren't going to last one launch. At 4 - 5 times normal power levels I am not sure how long your crankshaft will last.

[MantAscona]

I'm not sure what your racing experience level is, but the first thing to work on is the driver, not the car. Even if you are experienced, I read nothing about suspension, brake or tire mods. All the power in the world is worthless if you can't get it to the ground. It will also make the car LESS driveable and more dangerous.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but there are some very experienced drivers in highly prepared and developed cars competing in autcross and they're there for the same reason, to win. If you're preparing a GT you have that much more work cut out for you. Get a couple of seasons under your belt before you start spending a fortune on the car.

Duane

[gearheadeh]

Okay Okay The gloves are off ...so to speak, I hate ringing my own bell but.Iam no spring chicken and all of the above three posts are on the surface very valid as to an opels ability to withstand a fourfold increase in power.I had only hoped to have a benchrace style discussion on different issues to do with using Alcohol and alcohol and nitro in a small naturally asperated engine.
First off I do own a 70 gt that has a stripped out interior and a 6 point cage.I have already changed out the what I think is an abomination of a rear suspention and rear end assembly with one that will be better for the types of racing and horsepower levels I anticipate.I plan on putting a turbo on the Mazda 13B engine and eventially running some Nitro in this combination when I return to Bonnyville sometime in the future. In the mean time I wanted to dragrace the gt to sort out the drive line as well as Summer(on asphalt) and winter autocross(on gravel and ice)the car. Many years ago I used to drag race a N.A. 454 powered rear engined dragster,parachute and all.Recently I have been a tech inspector for Road racing and CASCAR oval track in which I was paid $150 per race day.Ahem.... all that aside.I have been too broke or busy to do any spectacular (read that expensive) racing lately.
The other thing I was deliberately vague about was that the car Iam currently racing in winter autocross,mostly because it doesn't have a hope in hell of being competitive in summer autocross on asphalt......is NOT an OPEL.I came to this forum with my question as it seemed that this is the one forum I know of that seemed to have the right mix of knowledgable members.This car is a very light(just under 2000LBS) all wheel drive hatchback that owes me nothing as I paid almost nothing for it.
Now as far as what most people know about Nitro is that they have all seen spectacular explosions of engines in dragsters making 3 ,4, or even over 5000 Horse power. Increadible power from 1 V8 engine.however take into account that these engines are not naturally asperated and since nitro is basically a rocket fuel(mono propellant) that doesn't require outside oxigen to burn.This means that they are dumping in absolutly huge amounts of fuel thru these monster's to make this kind of power and of course it results in the odd huge explosion. Why else do they call it POP!.I have read stories of people getting about a 3 to 4 fold increase in power from a mildly tuned naturely asperated engine running on some ...not HUGE,amount of nitro and alky.
Okay so lets do some math....Stock my little car thumps out 72 whole horse power,L.O.L. not bad for a 1200 cc engine. So 72 times 3 or 4 equals.....wait for it.......216 to 288 HP.I think that it is just possible that my 2000 lb car might be able to handle this level of increase so that I car beat those Subaru Impressa STI's,and Nissan Pulsars that are all at least 1000 lbs heavier.Okay so is that enough info to continue this post or did it unfortunatly come accros as some sort of rant.....sorry.

[Gumby]

It's not unheard of to get 200 or more hp from a 2.4l CIH on relatively mild amounts of boost. Rallybob did a great write up on how to convert your 1.9 to a 2.4

Have you considered using NOx? Neither Nitro nor NOx are really cheap so it may be more cost effective in the long run to spend your limited money on improving the engine over time instead of just trying to bump a relatively stock engine up to several times the output it was designed for.

You mentioned replacing the connecting rods but it may be advisable to also replace the pistons as well if you decided to go through with your idea. I am sure some of our racers here can chime in on which parts need to be replaced to get to that power level.

[jeff denton]

I am confused. You have a GT chassis ready to rock and roll. Are wondering how to inject steroids into a 72 horsepower 1200 cc engine.
What kind of engine is that? Not Opel, right?
Please put up a photo of your car(s). We love the ones that show rollcage detail, and we need examples of rear diff swaps. Very common problem here.

Previously I was assuming we're talking about the Opel 1.9 engine, my suggestion to upgrade the rods comes from reading about your desire to very extremely radically up the horsepower. The stock forged ones aren't gonna get it.

Whatever you're doing is way out of my league. It's all I can do to make a GT quite competitive within (or leaning barely over) some very strict (but never enforced) rules. And it isn't all about horsepower on an oval track!

[RallyBob]

There's some good info here on nitromethane use and alchohol use (car, not driver!).

I suggest caution, not only because of the risk of blowing the car (or yourself) up, but also because of the severe health risks involved with nitromethane fumes and handling. Especially at higher concentrations.

While they do suggest in general that nitromethane can increase power by up to 2.5X the normal power of a given engine on gasoline, most engines running nitro are merely running a percentage of nitro/alchohol. You only hear of the top level guys runnings 90%+ nitromethane, and that is still risky with the best parts out there!

I remember an aquaintance of mine (runs vintage drag rails) suggesting to start out at 30% and gradually work your way up. Still a good chance of going 'boom' though.

You'll probably need 1/2" fuel lines BTW, because in order to make all that extra power you need all that extra fuel!

Bob

[gearheadeh]

Originally Posted by jeff denton I am confused. You have a GT chassis ready to rock and roll. Are wondering how to inject steroids into a 72 horsepower 1200 cc engine. What kind of engine is that? Not Opel, right? Please put up a photo of your car(s). We love the ones that show rollcage detail, and we need examples of rear diff swaps. Very common problem here. Previously I was assuming we're talking about the Opel 1.9 engine, my suggestion to upgrade the rods comes from reading about your desire to very extremely radically up the horsepower. The stock forged ones aren't gonna get it. Whatever you're doing is way out of my league. It's all I can do to make a GT quite competitive within (or leaning barely over) some very strict (but never enforced) rules. And it isn't all about horsepower on an oval track!

okay....first things first.I was half way thru switching the driveline from an ugly decidedly unareodynamic donor car into my GT when the person I was renting the garage from cancelled my lease.I was intent on putting the entire driveline from what is called a Mazda cosmo(not the new one with a 3 rotor or the original with a 10a engine) but what should have been called an RX5.It was in an accident and I thought that giving the drive line a new life in such a beautiful areodynamic car as the gt would be a great combo.Since I had the whole car to work with I cut the floor pan just ahead of the lower fourlink connections and behind just in front of the tailight panel.I did the same to the GT,removing all of the rear floor pan.Simmular to if you were gonna install rear subframe and tub out a drag car.Then I wheeled the new floor,suspention and much stronger disc brake equiped rear section under the GT.Unfortunatly that was as far as I got.I anticipated moving the engine tranny back as far as possible to gain a better weight distribution.there will be some issues to address ; 1 is that the donor has a wider track width which means I will have to build some wheel flares to accomidate the switch. 2. the trans shifter on the Mazda 5speed overdrive tranny is on a housing just above the the drive shaft output. I looks like it will be possible to remove this pedastill of a shifter and shorten the rods to remount it closer to the bell housing. this means that when mounted so far back in the car I won't have to reach into the back seat to shift gears.There's still a fair amount of work to do yet!.
Iam not the most computer literate but I will try and post up a few picks and links but I don't have a digital camera to provide pics right away of said GT. sorry.
Now about the little winter Autocrosser: it is a low prodution relatively rare car that was not very well received by the public.There never was any,and I mean any, aftermarket parts availible for this car.the factory parts are getting very expensive and so the cars have dropped in resale value to almost nothing.I have purchased 5 of them avaraging $300 dollars each for them in most running condition.As in I drove them home to fix what ailled them. I did sell one that I bought for $300 fixed up a little and sold for $2000,the high end of what a really good one is worth!. So that 1 car more than paid for all the rest.They owe me nothing and If I can gain some knowledge about running nitro before blowing up the stock engine ,great. Now this just might be one of the strongest stock engines out there.Hopefully Iam sucessful at posting up a link that talks about a 1 liter version in a stock bodied car that set a record for it's class at Bonnyville.They basically were running at 12,000 rpm's for extended periods over miles at speed,unlike the short duration peak in drag racing.They had after market 12.1 pistons BUT a stock crank and stock FORGED connecting rods!.So like I said Iam not about to putting in a huge financiall investment in a 1 off custom camshaft and valve trains.Plus porting and pollishing and custom header fabbing all to only double the horse power.I would sooner invest the money in nitro,gain some transferable knowledge, and just possible win a race for a little effort.I think it would be just as much work to put in nitrous and like I said before it doesn't give me the bottom end punch I need.Also a roots blower would be difficult to install in such a cramped engine compartment.
Subaru Justy Forum - Subaru Justy Breaks Land Speed Record!!!

[GTJIM]

Neva happen!

I used nitro mixes back in midget racing car days - above 15% the fun begins
Need much lower compression ratios because the air/fuel mix is more liquid - that is why fuelies run 4.5:1 CR! Any more and the motor 'hydraulics' on the mix in the cylinders.

For an unmodified 9.5:1 motor the most that you can use and keep it all together is about 10% Nitro/50% 87 Octane pump gas/37% Methanol and 3% Acetone to keep it all mixed. That will give you about 25% increase in power over straight Racing Gas (110 Octane).

To use higher ratios of Nitro mandates MUCH engine building and chemistry knowledge ... plus experience!

Ya cain't just "tip-the-can" and go faster - Leadfoot Louie!

BTW: Back then the NitroMethane we has access to was 'sensitised' with a dash of Hydrazine - which turned it from rocket fuel into explosive rocket fuel ....

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Ya cain't just "tip-the-can" and go faster - Leadfoot Louie!

Oh, I don't know about that Jim. All my friends 'get faster' every time they tip a can of beer back....

[GTJIM]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Oh, I don't know about that Jim. All my friends 'get faster' every time they tip a can of beer back....

.. especially when bench racing! Half-a-dozen 'Buds' double the speed!

[gearheadeh]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Neva happen! I used nitro mixes back in midget racing car days - above 15% the fun begins Need much lower compression ratios because the air/fuel mix is more liquid - that is why fuelies run 4.5:1 CR! Any more and the motor 'hydraulics' on the mix in the cylinders. For an unmodified 9.5:1 motor the most that you can use and keep it all together is about 10% Nitro/50% 87 Octane pump gas/37% Methanol and 3% Acetone to keep it all mixed. That will give you about 25% increase in power over straight Racing Gas (110 Octane). To use higher ratios of Nitro mandates MUCH engine building and chemistry knowledge ... plus experience! Ya cain't just "tip-the-can" and go faster - Leadfoot Louie! BTW: Back then the NitroMethane we has access to was 'sensitised' with a dash of Hydrazine - which turned it from rocket fuel into explosive rocket fuel ....

Excellant....I knew somebody here would have some hands on knowledge, thanks for sharing!.

[jeff denton]

Yeah I just had a Glacier Brew, imported Kokanee. My GT ran a lap just under fifteen seconds, we're knocking on the track record's door!
Then I woke up. Would somebody go get me another Kokanee?
Off topic, but, we won the race last Saturday night. In limited sportsman. Long story, but the short version is we took second. The winner was then disqualified after the tech man heard a complaint (not from us) about composite leaf springs. Rules mandate steel ones. Just thought I'd share that. You guys like racing stories. Sorry this one wasn't about an Opel.

[Itsa '70 GT]

[QUOTE=jeff denton;162307]Well the first thing you're gonna want to do is bulletproof the bottom end, I suggest (at least) Crower Sportsman Rods. You'll need custom pistons to use those rods, Venolia has a few recipes in their books.
Then you want something better than stock head bolts, trust me. I'll spare you the story. This will be custom work. Call me when you figure out where they come from, I'll take a set, too.......


Yeah, I know that I play with bigger toys, but if you're thinking about running Nitro big time, here goes....

Yes, unless you run Nitromethane (Yes, that's what Metanol and Nitro become when mixed) in small quantities mixed properly,as GTJIM suggested already, you MUST have a BETTER THAN bulletproof bottom end. Aluminum components are mandatory and OEM is not an option, unless of course, you want to grenade the thing in about .02 seconds. The rotating assembly must have flex in the parts if you're going to spin it with "juice" and not break. Anything over about 8.1 compression and you better have spare parts ready to go, because meltdowns of cylinders/pistons, pushing rods out the side of the block and fire-slotting the heads are commonplace when running ghost fuel and nitro.

Head STUDS will also be mandatory as you don't want to launch the head. And don't forget corrosion resistant parts up top and in your fuel delivery setupso that things don't get messed up there by the corrosivenes of the fuel. Don't forget the Top-End Lube that gets pre-mixed into the fuel as an anti-corrosive and valvetrain lubricant.

Yes, Nitro, like cyanide, when used in small amounts can be a good thing. However, if you push the envelope without beefing things up, plan on a "garage sale".

Hope I haven't been too much of a doom-sayer...Just be safe, smart with the mixes and you WILL have fun!

Best Regards,

Bill B.

[gearheadeh]

so after all this I did a different search on google and came up with this absolute gem of an articule which is aptly named:Everything youever wanted to know about RACING FUEL.It seems like enough info that somebody with enough time,money and guts could get a start on running Nitro!. However like most things in life,you don't know how little you know about something till you know a little something about that thing!.I have decided not to try and blow up my JUSTY with Nitromethane.In my opinion the only way to be sure to not get detonation leading to catastrophic failure, is to remove the head and remove all sharp edges and carbon in the combustion chamber.Plus the valves would have to be set up as new inorder to eliminate all potential hot spots.
I will instead try and BLOW UP my Justy with nitous oxide
wish me luck eh!.


Ray Hall Turbocharging - Everything you ever wanted to know about racing fuel

[wrench459]

I was reading about the different burn times of racing fuels.
And it got me thinking
If the engine oh lets say is turning 8 grand it will need a fast burning fuel.
Question is how do you match the fuel to the engine? If where all on the same page we'll need to put as much load on the piston in a certain spot.

[gearheadeh]

Talked to a retired Top Alcohol dragster driver the other day. I guess that Alcohol would make for a very high torque engine.Just what I was looking for but here is some of the cons. You should have at least 13;1 compression, you don't just idlle the engine between races as the methanol washes into the crankcase contaminating the Oil. So that means that you are a frendly with your local used oil drop off center as you should be changing the oil OFTEN !. It will not start stone cold on alky unless some gasoline is squirted in the cranking engine(good starter too!) Just a few points. So Iam looking into putting on a 350cfm holley 2 barrel onto the engine so that I can then add a healthy douse of laughing gas. Think I will take up on the advice of running really large fuel lines so that if I recalibrate the carb for alky in the future that will still be usefull.