Returnless Fuel Injection

[wrench459]

From the looks of it the returnless can handle the power requirements of my little street/strip car with plenty of head room. I've looked into the megasquirt and I've found it lacking for my needs.
That said I'm asking if anyone has converted a late model eec-v into an early model Opel?

[markandson]

Originally Posted by wrench459 From the looks of it the returnless can handle the power requirements of my little street/strip car with plenty of head room. I've looked into the megasquirt and I've found it lacking for my needs. That said I'm asking if anyone has converted a late model eec-v into an early model Opel?

What is it that you want to do that the MegaSquirt can't handle?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by wrench459 From the looks of it the returnless can handle the power requirements of my little street/strip car with plenty of head room. I've looked into the megasquirt and I've found it lacking for my needs. That said I'm asking if anyone has converted a late model eec-v into an early model Opel?

No offense but what benefit would you get out of a returnless fuel system short of more complexity? I'm not knocking you for investigating it and more power to you if you can make it happen, it's just I think there are other places that the money spend on something like this would benefit more from.

markandson, I think he is referring to the additional sensor inputs needed to run a returnless EFI system.

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by markandson What is it that you want to do that the MegaSquirt can't handle?

Think of it this way for a second
carb is like a shotgun
banked injection a rifle
I'm after a laser

[markandson]

Originally Posted by Gumby markandson, I think he is referring to the additional sensor inputs needed to run a returnless EFI system.

Ahh....something else I apparently don't know enough about. I assumed it was a simple system with a pump and an accumulator and a pressure switch to just keep the accumulator at the specified pressure thereby eliminating the need for a return line. I guess it must be more complicated than that.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by markandson Ahh....something else I apparently don't know enough about. I assumed it was a simple system with a pump and an accumulator and a pressure switch to just keep the accumulator at the specified pressure thereby eliminating the need for a return line. I guess it must be more complicated than that.

A bunch of newer cars have returnless systems that are done by the OEM's simply for cost/simplicity. The ECU controls the pump essentially, but there is a cap as to the limitations of these systems. For aftermarket performance upgrades, most folks scrap the returnless system and plumb a 'normal' return-style system.

Example: 350Z Nissans use a returnless system, when turbocharging them the fuel system is often the limiting factor. Plus a return-style system runs cooler...unused fuel in the feed line goes back to the tank, mixes with the remaining fuel, and comes back 'cooled off'.

[opelspyder]

I'm working on a weber throttle body setup, and it is returnless fuel system...it will use their programming though. I was told though that whatever fuel injection system you go with, be sure to get what you will need at first. Many megasquirt buyers buy a basic kit, and then end up paying just as much when they decide to upgrade it with a component that if they had purchased it in the first place, they would have saved quite a bit of money. Now I'm not much into the mapping and programming of fuel injection-and personnally could care less, thats why I am purchasing the weber package, as the work is done for me. Now some get a kick out of working on their computers for hours mapping out how their car will run and thats great, Markandson(Jeff) is pretty hardcore on this subject as I have seen how perticular he is with his megasquirt info. I think though from what I have read that if you purchase the proper equipment, and all the programming you would possibly need, Megasquirt is fine. There are also several companies making the programming, but what type of injection are you going to try or have?

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by RallyBob A bunch of newer cars have returnless systems that are done by the OEM's simply for cost/simplicity. The ECU controls the pump essentially, but there is a cap as to the limitations of these systems. For aftermarket performance upgrades, most folks scrap the returnless system and plumb a 'normal' return-style system. Example: 350Z Nissans use a returnless system, when turbocharging them the fuel system is often the limiting factor. Plus a return-style system runs cooler...unused fuel in the feed line goes back to the tank, mixes with the remaining fuel, and comes back 'cooled off'.

The Focus fuel pumps can handle up to 425 rwhp. Lets try and keep and open mind here. Ok there PWM pumps we can deal with that!

[markandson]

I don't understand how anything out of the box will work on a custom engine unless you have a way to change what needs to be changed. I understand how computers and chips can be made for stock applications because the programmer knows what he is dealing with. That is why I went with a system that is tunable, MegaSquirt is obviously not the only answer but I would think a tunable system has to be better.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by opelspyder I'm working on a weber throttle body setup, and it is returnless fuel system...it will use their programming though. I was told though that whatever fuel injection system you go with, be sure to get what you will need at first. Many megasquirt buyers buy a basic kit, and then end up paying just as much when they decide to upgrade it with a component that if they had purchased it in the first place, they would have saved quite a bit of money. Now I'm not much into the mapping and programming of fuel injection-and personnally could care less, thats why I am purchasing the weber package, as the work is done for me. Now some get a kick out of working on their computers for hours mapping out how their car will run and thats great, Markandson(Jeff) is pretty hardcore on this subject as I have seen how perticular he is with his megasquirt info. I think though from what I have read that if you purchase the proper equipment, and all the programming you would possibly need, Megasquirt is fine. There are also several companies making the programming, but what type of injection are you going to try or have?

Keith, what system is this exactly?

I've never seen any aftermarket ECU where you didn't have to map and tune the engine. I mean, some have a base map installed when you purchase it to get things going initially, but since every engine is different you always need to fine-tune. Not much different than jetting a carburetor.

Bob

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by markandson I don't understand how anything out of the box will work on a custom engine unless you have a way to change what needs to be changed. I understand how computers and chips can be made for stock applications because the programmer knows what he is dealing with. That is why I went with a system that is tunable, MegaSquirt is obviously not the only answer but I would think a tunable system has to be better.

But what if you could break into the PCM and change things around?
Would that change your mind?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by wrench459 The Focus fuel pumps can handle up to 425 rwhp. Lets try and keep an open mind here. Ok there PWM pumps we can deal with that!

That's certainly extreme for a Focus!

I'm just saying that not all manufacturer's stock systems are modification-friendly, that's all. Some require re-engineering.

[opelspyder]

Let me clear it up, the Redline setup comes with pre-settings to get you going, but it is a little more user friendly when coming to mapping and such. I'm an idiot when it comes to fuel injection, but I will be learning. I didn't want to get into the actual building the programming and ECU for the fuel injection...I like the plug and play world we live in. Hooking up the computer and changing some defaults shouldn't be a problem, as there software is supposed to be simple to understand. I don't have it yet, just in the works. I am not going with a trigger wheel either, but having the 2.0 distributor modified as the trigger. Another thing I didn't want to try to figure out
Keith

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by opelspyder Let me clear it up, the Redline setup comes with pre-settings to get you going, but it is a little more user friendly when coming to mapping and such. I'm an idiot when it comes to fuel injection, but I will be learning. I didn't want to get into the actual building the programming and ECU for the fuel injection...I like the plug and play world we live in. Hooking up the computer and changing some defaults shouldn't be a problem, as there software is supposed to be simple to understand. I don't have it yet, just in the works. I am not going with a trigger wheel either, but having the 2.0 distributor modified as the trigger. Another thing I didn't want to try to figure out Keith

No problem, I was not questioning your reasoning, I was just wondering. Most aftermarket 'systems' (as in, complete pre-built programmable systems) have a base map that will get you going. Megasquirt is really more about doing it all yourself, that's all. The building, the wiring, the tuning, and the add-on options. You can get away with maybe $500 complete if you build it yourself, and scour the junkyards for sensors and injectors, etc.

Most stand-alones cost appreciably more, especially when fitted with a harness, fuel rail, sensors...blah, blah. $2500-$3000 is not unusual (well, it's unusual for Opels!), but in the realm of most newer cars, it's still cheap. Until you get to the realm of all-out race ECU's where you spend $5-10k just on the ECU without options!

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by RallyBob That's certainly extreme for a Focus! I'm just saying that not all manufacturer's stock systems are modification-friendly, that's all. Some require re-engineering.

Thats the TRICK setup for now on the believe it or not 4.6 'stangs.
I said the same thing ..theres no way . The Focus pumps can handle the pressures, and drops across the tips.
After running the numbers I'm a believer.

[N61WP]

The ITB system I'm building does not return all the way back to the tank, just to a large filter with a return port before the high pressure pump. I need to take some pictures now that I have it plumbed. I'll try to take some pics over the weekend.

I'm also going to use the Mega Squirt. When I bought it, I also bought the high end wide band O2 sensor. I was under the impression that you can let the Mega use the wide band to "self tune" to a point, and then fine tune from there; please correct me if I'm wrong as I am finally getting ready to start wiring.

Jc

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by N61WP The ITB system I'm building does not return all the way back to the tank, just to a large filter with a return port before the high pressure pump. I need to take some pictures now that I have it plumbed. I'll try to take some pics over the weekend. I'm also going to use the Mega Squirt. When I bought it, I also bought the high end wide band O2 sensor. I was under the impression that you can let the Mega use the wide band to "self tune" to a point, and then fine tune from there; please correct me if I'm wrong as I am finally getting ready to start wiring. Jc

Yup, Mega-Tune will get you 95% of the way there by just driving down the road and datalogging with the wideband, then installing the correction factors it generates. Pretty neat, saw it done fairly recently with a BMW 2002.

[neuropel]

I've been considering one of these Retrotek units as a possible stand-alone controller for an ITB setup. The "Smart Tune" technology also learns proper air/fuel ratios after you set up the basic engine parameters. Not bad for around a thousand bucks, but it's still twice what a Megasquirt would cost. The redline stuff always seems WAYY pricey - they're apparently really proud of it.

Todd

[markandson]

Originally Posted by N61WP The ITB system I'm building does not return all the way back to the tank, just to a large filter with a return port before the high pressure pump. I need to take some pictures now that I have it plumbed. I'll try to take some pics over the weekend. I'm also going to use the Mega Squirt. When I bought it, I also bought the high end wide band O2 sensor. I was under the impression that you can let the Mega use the wide band to "self tune" to a point, and then fine tune from there; please correct me if I'm wrong as I am finally getting ready to start wiring. Jc

You have to get it somewhat close just to get the car to start, but with a little reading, well a lot of reading (at least for me but sometimes I am dense) it will happen. If you are not close the closed loop will throw errors and give the computer misinformation. At the beginning you have to shut down the acceleration enrichment and some of the other temperature related enrichments. So many things are changing during warmup that it is very hard to figure out which sensor is changing the mixture. You can probably use some of my settings as a baseline just to get the car started if necessary.

[wrench459]

Im going to be a smart ace. The software can't even tell you where the errror
Beep kick me again beep reboot
You got to be kidding me. That some very advanced stuff your working with.
Sorry I could not help myself.. Beep

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Im going to be a smart ace. The software can't even tell you where the errror Beep kick me again beep reboot You got to be kidding me. That some very advanced stuff your working with. Sorry I could not help myself.. Beep

??? What exactly is your point here ???
Are you saying the Megatune software is no good?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Think of it this way for a second carb is like a shotgun banked injection a rifle I'm after a laser

If you are after a laser you'll need an entirely new engine all together. A laser would be a direct injection system not a returnless fuel system.

The only real benefit I've seen from the system is that because the ecu controls the fuel pump it doesn't have to be pumping at full capacity all the time. So your fuel pump lasts longer and there is no return line (simplified construction from the car builders point of view). O-o I don't see any performance benefit from this except perhaps if you are looking to boost the engine and want to be able to increase the flow rate of the injectors on the fly but that is self defeating since you could just install larger injectors for a lot cheaper.

Why are you being so vague on what you are after? It isn't conducive to a discussion when you are poking fun at someone elses choice in an ECU and advoiding any real content of what you want to discuss.

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by Gumby If you are after a laser you'll need an entirely new engine all together. A laser would be a direct injection system not a returnless fuel system. The only real benefit I've seen from the system is that because the ecu controls the fuel pump it doesn't have to be pumping at full capacity all the time. So your fuel pump lasts longer and there is no return line (simplified construction from the car builders point of view). O-o I don't see any performance benefit from this except perhaps if you are looking to boost the engine and want to be able to increase the flow rate of the injectors on the fly but that is self defeating since you could just install larger injectors for a lot cheaper. Why are you being so vague on what you are after? It isn't conducive to a discussion when you are poking fun at someone elses choice in an ECU and advoiding any real content of what you want to discuss.

Levi
I made the mistake of mentioning megasquirt in the first post and things drifted from there. I believe there might be a better way of handling powertrain control. Also I'm going to be a little vague with what I'm doing for a reason BUT I'll try and drop hints along the way. Sounds like a spot on the site project section.. EEC V Conversion.
You can't just install bigger injectors.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...heory_kens.pdf

I'll be using SCT software to unlock the power of the Ford PCM.

I'm just a country boy never meant any harm. If I did I apologize.

Dan

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Levi I made the mistake of mentioning megasquirt in the first post and things drifted from there. I believe there might be a better way of handling powertrain control. Also I'm going to be a little vague with what I'm doing for a reason BUT I'll try and drop hints along the way. Sounds like a spot on the site project section.. EEC V Conversion. You can't just install bigger injectors. http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ge...heory_kens.pdf I'll be using SCT software to unlock the power of the Ford PCM. I'm just a country boy never meant any harm. If I did I apologize. Dan

I agree there are better solutions than megasquirts. What are you anticipating the cost to be for the EEC V conversion? I investigated what it would take to integrate a late model returnless fuel system in the past and found it was more trouble and cost than I was interested in. Like I said in my first post I am not trying to dissuade you from doing this kind of modification or upgrade, I just didn't see the value in a returnless system over a more conventional setup. I thought you might have more insight into the performance values of a returnless system. If you've got something in mind that would work well for boost then I am all ears.

The injector comment was assuming that was they were the limiting factor...not the pump. ie delivering greater pressure to the injectors increases flow to a point.

[wrench459]

Originally Posted by Gumby I just didn't see the value in a returnless system over a more conventional setup. I thought you might have more insight into the performance values of a returnless system. If you've got something in mind that would work well for boost then I am all ears.

This is a work in progress. The bigest advantage with the returnless will be with the fuel pressure sensor. The PCM will know the pressure drop across the injectors at all times.

With the older style style FI systems the PCM is basing the pulse width off a assumed value. But what happens when the fuel regulator sticks or the hose blows off?

Theres pitfalls with the returnless like when the pump starts sucking air. The vehicle could go lean on the rear injector holes.

Edit/Rethinking that last statement. I'll need to open up a system and induce some air into the system and look at the misfires.

The first time I current ramped a returnless pump I was at a loss for an explanation for the low current draw of only appr. two amps.
Later on I floored the vehicle to force max current from the pump. I said cool theres value to a pulse width modulated pump after all.
You know the little light bulb came on inside my small cranial cavity.