Surge Tank for EFI
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Thread: Surge Tank for EFI

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    Senior Member nickincrete's Avatar
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    Surge Tank for EFI

    if i use a fuel surge tank for my fuel injection system can i use a standard mechanical, engine driven fuel pump or will i need a electric one to fill the surge tank

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    Just Some Dude in Jersey My location The Scifi Guy's Avatar
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    I'm sure you would need an electric fuel pump with any FI set up. You'd have no fuel pressure until the engine starts cranking and even then it would probably "pulse". Just guessing, I have no first hand knowledge.
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    I always use a low pressure high volume electric pump to fill a surge tank.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Here is one of my setups. I'm using the Carter low pressure pump on the right to feed the surge tank (swirl pot), which then is fed to the high pressure inline EFI pump on the left. You want the low pressure pump to have a similar flow volume to the high pressure pump, otherwise that sort of defeats the purpose of using a surge tank!
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    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    I always use a low pressure high volume electric pump to fill a surge tank.
    I'm also using the carter low pressure H/V to feed the high pressure main.
    The surge tank is still on the to do list. So far as long as I keep the fuel tank
    at 1/4 or more no problems.

    Here's a pretty good link.
    Last edited by wrench459; 12-13-2013 at 06:24 PM.
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    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Senior Member ken2's Avatar
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    I have always wondered on this subject, why, if the surge tank is essentially replicating a sump in the tank, two fuel pumps are needed? If properly placed, couldn't it be setup the way I quickly/poorly modified the diagram? Won't the high pressure pump always be delivering more volume to the fuel rail than the engine needs, hence, always having flow back to the surge tank via the fuel pressure regulator drain?
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken2 View Post
    I have always wondered on this subject, why, if the surge tank is essentially replicating a sump in the tank, two fuel pumps are needed? If properly placed, couldn't it be setup the way I quickly/poorly modified the diagram? Won't the high pressure pump always be delivering more volume to the fuel rail than the engine needs, hence, always having flow back to the surge tank via the fuel pressure regulator drain?
    EFI pumps don't 'suck' very well. The low pressure high volume pump keeps the surge tank full, so there is always a column of fuel above the EFI pump inlet, even if you are cornering hard and the fuel sloshes away from the pickup in the fuel tank.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    thanks
    electric it is then
    its all corners here in Crete Greece as the roads follow the old donkey tracks and i think they must have been drunk

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    ... even if you are cornering hard and the fuel sloshes away from the pickup in the fuel tank.
    On the GT the fuel outlet is located at the L/R corner of the tank.
    Under heavy straight line acceleration no problem.
    A hard right hander still a non-issue.
    The lean cavitation would show up more on a high G left hand turn.

    Yes I've seen the main pump speed up due to suckin air before.


    I'm keeping the thread alive in my own funny way
    Last edited by wrench459; 12-14-2013 at 07:42 PM.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Owner of EZ2Wire.com My location GoinManta's Avatar
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    Funny just saw this.. and apparently did Kadett totally wrong..

    BUT may have gotten away with it due to tank design.. mind you some of this I know was "wrong" but given space limitations I didnt have a lot of choice. So far it seems to work.

    First off I went fuel filter FIRST...

    Coming off bottom of tank, I turn a 90 right into this filter :



    Its about 2-1/2" in diameter and 3-4" long.. so it holds a lot of fuel.. ON the OUT (threaded side) I put a 1/2" barb.. the pump I used from the BMW also had a 1/2" Barb, so there is 2" of 1/2" hose between the two.

    Then it runs to the front to the regulator.. Return from regulator goes and dumps into the top of the tank where the emissions port was.. I have a vented gas cap to vent the tank.



    So far 400 miles or so and 3 weeks no problems.. again not looking to race, just to have a running driving car.. Not sure this would work if the gas feed wasn't on the bottom of the tank and everything so closely coupled..

    Figure I should get spare fuel pump just in case for long drives.
    CURRENT
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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoinManta View Post
    Funny just saw this.. and apparently did Kadett totally wrong..





    .. again not looking to race, just to have a running driving car..
    It's a good thing that your not "Goin" to race. :-)
    For what it's worth I'm running a 3/8ths return also.
    Last edited by wrench459; 01-04-2014 at 11:03 PM.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Owner of EZ2Wire.com My location GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    It's a good thing that your not "Goin" to race. :-)
    Yes.. just hope not too much resistance for fuel pump.. But dont think it will be an issue.. as the filter is really large and media made to give little resistance.

    Also not planning on any real racing, so as long as it works, keeps the fuel clean, and doesnt burn up the fuel pump.. I would call that a win.
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '05 Pontiac GTO

    In the past owned:
    '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    '73 Blue Max Manta Luxus
    & at least 20 other Opels

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    While it's still sort of new
    Check the fuel pump current waveform....if the armature shows any hints of slowing down beware.

    Also if the current flow drops(and pump speeds up) it's because the fuel pump load has gotten less....ie suckin air.
    Last edited by wrench459; 01-04-2014 at 11:16 PM.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Owner of EZ2Wire.com My location GoinManta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    While it's still sort of new
    Check the fuel pump current waveform....if the armature shows any hints of slowing down beware.

    Also if the current flow drops(and pump speeds up) it's because the fuel pump load has gotten less....ie suckin air.
    Thanks a good idea as its a used pump anyway..

    as for sucking air.. if its sucking air I'm out of gas its 2" or so below the gas tank.. and connection to tank is dead center of the bottom.. so I think it would be hard to suck air with a full tank
    CURRENT
    '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (2.0 L w/ EFI & Auto) - "Mary Ann"
    '74 Opel Manta - "Barbara"
    '05 Pontiac GTO

    In the past owned:
    '06 Pontiac GTO
    2 Bitters (#491/#439)
    '73 Commodore GS
    ATLAS ( 74 Manta w/ 2.8L LK5 )
    '73 Blue Max Manta Luxus
    & at least 20 other Opels

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    Member Red0ktober's Avatar
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    Lots of money, but there are these:
    Edelbrock Universal Sump Fuel Kits
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3605
    1971 Opel Kadett Wagon - TBI EFI with MS2, Prepping for LeMons Rally - Summer 2017
    1972 Opel GT - parts car
    1998 Volvo V90 with Ford 5.0 V8 Swap
    2003 Land Rover Discovery SE7
    2016 Honda CRF1000L Africa Twin

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    EFI pumps don't 'suck' very well. The low pressure high volume pump keeps the surge tank full, so there is always a column of fuel above the EFI pump inlet, even if you are cornering hard and the fuel sloshes away from the pickup in the fuel tank.
    Is this true even of gear-rotor type fuel pumps? I would figure a gear-rotor pump is a positive displacement type pump and so would move whatever fluid entered the inlet. Fuels are pretty low in viscosity, so there has to be some amount of vacuum a gear-rotor pump can perform.

    I am invested in this since I am assembling the components necessary to convert my GT to EFI. I already have an LP Carter pump mounted completely under the fuel tank so I thought switching it to a high pressure pump would be a simple exchange (excluding high pressure hoses, etc).

    I don't really want to have to build(buy) a surge tank, but would 'T'ing in the return line before the pump suffice for enough volume of fuel? Might it end up getting hot running around in that circuit without returning to the main tank?

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    Senior Member nickincrete's Avatar
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    The main reason im using a fuel surge tank is that I live in Crete in Greece.
    The roads here are all small old ex donkey tracks, not kidding. and full of hairpin bends.
    Between here and the coast about 6 miles away must be over 20 sharp bends.
    We only have 1 main road, highway, on the island.
    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@35.24...24.9131999,12z

    What I was finding was with the standard fuel tank and a fi fuel pump that I was not picking up any fuel when in the middle of these bends .

    I have started to fit my surge tank above the fuel tank on a xtension of the parcel wood shelf, spare tyre shelf, behind the metal partition. there is plenty of room here and i can box it in as well.

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftus View Post
    ...
    I am invested in this since I am assembling the components necessary to convert my GT to EFI. I already have an LP Carter pump mounted completely under the fuel tank so I thought switching it to a high pressure pump would be a simple exchange (excluding high pressure hoses, etc).

    I don't really want to have to build(buy) a surge tank...
    Jaybird
    I went the route of two electric pumps w/o a surge tank.
    A high volume/low pressure pump that feeds the high pressure pump.
    I've not had any leaning out even with low fuel levels in the tank.
    Most of the time I keep it half tank...to help balance the front/rear weight ratios.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    I went the route of two electric pumps w/o a surge tank.
    A high volume/low pressure pump that feeds the high pressure pump.
    So what about air which enters the system? Technically its going to move all the way through, eventually getting to the fuel pressure regulator where it has the ability to move to the injectors since nothing is forcing it to exit via the return line. Hmmmm.

    Swirl pots compress out the air and force it to exit through the 'up' position in a swirl pot. But I don't know if I am a fan of the return line from the regulator also going to the swirl pot or surge tank. It almost guarantees 3-5psi of backpressure on that line. The backpressure must screw with the fuel pressure regulator on some level, causing irregular fuel pressures. Below is an drawing of the way I am currently thinking of routing a surge tank.

    Fuel System Surge Tank.jpg

    Maybe I'll just compensate for fuel pressure like we do in the race cars. There we are running a returnless system, but it is a very dumb returnless system. All of the fuel pressure regulation happens within the fuel tank itself and then the entire feed line from the tank to the injector is regulated and one way.
    Last edited by Swiftus; 02-07-2015 at 10:52 PM. Reason: Added an image of alternative surge tank routing.

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickincrete View Post
    The main reason im using a fuel surge tank is that I live in Crete in Greece.
    The roads here are all small old ex donkey tracks, not kidding. and full of hairpin bends.
    Between here and the coast about 6 miles away must be over 20 sharp bends....
    What I was finding was with the standard fuel tank and a fi fuel pump that I was not picking up any fuel when in the middle of these bends ...
    Yep this is understandable.
    Tight slow turns then heavy open throttle loads.
    The large displacement engines loves fuel during this time.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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