EFI Options

[jordan]

Very nice looking product, looks simple and smooth. Todd, are you going to be EFI for carlisle?

[neuropel]

Nope...unfortunately not Jordan. I've had two efi projects in mind for a while. The first was to be a megasquirt setup on my stock manta using the 75 plenum and nissan throttle body. I wanted to go with that setup to get familiar with the megasquirt (and get better acquainted with EFI in general). The second one involves a longer-term project of setting up EFI on a 2.4-based engine mentioned below. It seems that our options are growing at a fast pace though. For the price of just the throttle bodies from TWM, I can purchase the Extrudabody setup AND have enough left over to get a stand-alone ECU like this Retrotek unit and not even have to fool with megasquirt. The Retrotek is around a thousand bucks and has a lot of nice features. For example, it self-learns, and I think it can handle single line fuel control. Just bolt it on and drive!
I'm still going to eventually try the megasquirt setup on my stock manta because I think it will improve mileage and driveability (and I hate carbs to be honest), but it'll likely become a lower priority. I'm itching to get going with the bigger motor!

Todd

[wrench459]

.... jaw just hit the floor...
Wild simply wild how the aftermarket is stepping it up (Retrotek)

[N61WP]

I've been holding off posting anything about my EFI project until I actually start it. I have been collecting my EFI parts for about 6 months now and am ready to get started as soon as I get this @#$%!&^ composite front spring on and finish the front brakes. Then to find a Mega Squirt expert to teach an old shade tree mechanic some modern tricks....hey Hiro, coming to the States any time soon?

Here is some eye candy:

Jenvey ITBs only 1.285" wide! No heater box cutting for me!

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by N61WP Jenvey ITBs only 1.285" wide! No heater box cutting for me!

Nice!

What intakes are you gonna run?

[N61WP]

I have a set of Cannons that I had milled out from 40mm to 45mm. I was going to use them with dual 45 DCOE's and spent many an hour porting them. I think I went as far as I could with them short of cutting and rewelding. I'll post pictures when I actually start. It's unbelievable how much stuff I have collected for this project$$$.

James

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by N61WP hey Hiro, coming to the States any time soon?

well I would not mind at all but....
first I have to dump 1 wife + 2 daughters + 1 house + way too many cars,
then I need to convince Bob to finish my padawan training...
here I guess I'm much too old & clumsy!
Hiro

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Hiro well I would not mind at all but.... first I have to dump 1 wife + 2 daughters + 1 house + way too many cars, then I need to convince Bob to finish my padawan training... here I guess I'm much too old & clumsy! Hiro

You don't have to move here...maybe just take a holiday?

And just think of all the inexpensive parts you can bring home with you...

[Tru-Craft]

Bob, not that I need another project..........but!
I have a 2006 Suzuki GSXR-750.
The FI system is amazing, this bike pulls from just off idle to 14,000+ rpm's!!!!
This thing still scares the crap out of me at times, but I like it!

RallyBob, would this FI setup be good for my GT with a custom intake runner system like you have made before?

A wrecked GSXR-1000 system should flow enough to handle a 7,000rpm Opel motor?
Cheap?
I'm sure you already looked into this.
Any thoughts?
Lyle

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft Bob, not that I need another project..........but! I have a 2006 Suzuki GSXR-750. The FI system is amazing, this bike pulls from just off idle to 14,000+ rpm's!!!! This thing still scares the crap out of me at times, but I like it! RallyBob, would this FI setup be good for my GT with a custom intake runner system like you have made before? A wrecked GSXR-1000 system should flow enough to handle a 7,000rpm Opel motor? Cheap? I'm sure you already looked into this. Any thoughts? Lyle

I don't know if the complete EFI system is workable, but the TB's alone should be just about perfect for an engine like yours. Motocycle TB's are very common on home-built EFI systems these days, they go for about $150 a set on ebay!

Bob

[jordan]

I understand that side draft carburetors may have some advantages over a single TB type efi set up. But once one crosses over into the realm of TBI much like those very slick Jenvey's (that N61WP has) that will fit onto side draft manifolds for roughly $565 for the pair it seems that anyway I think of it, a set up like that will beat out dsd carbs entirely. When the project is all said and done it will be more than dsd carbs, but the tuning advantage would be excellent. Any major disadvantage that I'm not getting?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by jordan I understand that side draft carburetors may have some advantages over a single TB type efi set up. But once one crosses over into the realm of TBI much like those very slick Jenvey's (that N61WP has) that will fit onto side draft manifolds for roughly $565 for the pair it seems that anyway I think of it, a set up like that will beat out dsd carbs entirely. When the project is all said and done it will be more than dsd carbs, but the tuning advantage would be excellent. Any major disadvantage that I'm not getting?

Not really, just overall cost.

You need:
*intakes
*throttle bodies
*throttle linkage
*air filters

The above will cost about the same as buying dual sidedraft carbs, except you don't need to buy additional jets.

Now, in order to complete the EFI swap, you need:

*EFI pump
*replace all fuel lines in car with high pressure hose and/or metal lines
*plumb a return line into the fuel tank
*fuel pressure regulator
*fuel injectors
*fuel rail (custom)
*custom wiring harness
*programmable ECU

Then you need to allow for time to program the system, and probably wideband-O2 assisted dyno time to get your money's worth on the initial investment. Airflow is airflow, and for a given 'hole' feeding your engine, carbs will make just as much power as EFI. But badly tuned EFI can just as easily make less power than carbs, or just as easily melt a piston. If you're gonna spend $2000 on injection, spend another $150-$200 and get it tuned!

BUT, the EFI can have far better driveability, and usually better low-end power than carbs, so in the end the EFI certainly wins out.

Bob

[Tru-Craft]

Originally Posted by RallyBob I don't know if the complete EFI system is workable, but the TB's alone should be just about perfect for an engine like yours. Motocycle TB's are very common on home-built EFI systems these days, they go for about $150 a set on ebay! Bob

Bob, thanks for the info.
I'm helping my neighbor with his super charged Mustang, making custom brackets, spacers, fab stuff.
So he said he would also help me if I wanted to go to FI on my GT.

Not knowing much about FI, I was just thinking about using a GSXR system:
*4 intake tubes, square to match the Opel intake port on one end and round on the other to match the Throttle body diameter. Angled up as far as possible but still clearing the GT hood.
*4 GSXR throttle bodies.
*4 silicone hoses to connect them.
* Single custom air cleaner.
*4 oxygen sensors, one in each header tube???
I have metal lines to carb and a return line back, 73 gas tank.

Or should I just use one large throttle body and the stock Opel manifold?

I really should read up on this before I "Babble" on!
Any good reading?
Thanks
Lyle

[neuropel]

Well, I decided to go with the Extrudabody ITB setup and placed my order this past week. $800 buys four 45mm throttle bodies ready for injectors, plus anodized billet linkage ready for throttle cable, custom fuel rail, TPS, and air filters. Once they come in, I'm going to attach the throttle bodies to the intakes and fit everything to the head so I can get the measurements for the fuel rail. One of the things that sold me on this kit is that the throttle linkage and fuel rail setups are solid and look to be far better than something I'd cobble together myself. The system was planned out from the beginning to be modular and therefore easily adapted for most any Weber setup. All stainless hardware and extruded/anodized aluminum, it reminds me of 80/20, of which I've always been a HUGE fan as it has made my life easier from time to time over the years.

Todd K.

[Tru-Craft]

Todd, thats looks like quality stuff!
Nice workmanship!
What are you doing for an intake manifold?
Lyle

[pvcar]

this looks like a nice setup, i looked at the site and under their manifolds they say they sell one for an opel 1800 SV Rount Port Manifold would this work, for a gt? or would u have to design your own manifold? how much do injectors go for that would fit in that setup? im still thinking about doing a efi conversion on my opel when i finally get back to the states. well lunch times over gotta run.
specialist Juneau out

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft Todd, thats looks like quality stuff! Nice workmanship! What are you doing for an intake manifold? Lyle

I'm using dbilas twin intakes for Opel 2.2/2.4 that have been "slightly" massaged...

Todd

[yellaopelgt]

Those look really nice Todd!! Did you do all the work yourself?? I won a set of those off evil bay a while back but the creep from Germany kept my money and sent nothing.......(sigh) story of my life......
Joe

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by yellaopelgt Those look really nice Todd!! Did you do all the work yourself??

No way! The intakes (and the cylinder head) were prepped by another "very prominent" Opeler.

Todd

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by neuropel Well, I decided to go with the Extrudabody ITB setup and placed my order this past week.

Nice! Glad you went this route, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.
Damn, this engine/car is going to be a monster! I should think you'd see 180+ hp at the rear wheels with complete driveability and manners. Or roughly 3.5 times the wheel hp of a stock Manta....

Got brakes?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft *4 silicone hoses to connect them.

Just make sure they are compatible with fuel. Some aren't!

*4 oxygen sensors, one in each header tube???

Not really necessary, and rather expensive! If you wanted, maybe 4 pyrometer sensors and maybe a switchable EGT gauge to monitor EGT's. One O2 sensor about 6 inches after the header collector is fine.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by pvcar this looks like a nice setup, i looked at the site and under there manifolds they say they sell one for an opel 1800 SV Rount Port Manifold would this work, for a gt?

Different engine...that's the 1.8 OHC engine used in later Opels.

or would u have to design your own manifold?

Any dual sidedraft (Weber type) manifold will work. Steinmetz, Irmscher, Cannon, Magnoletsi, Dbilas, Misab, etc.

how much do injectors go for that would fit in that setup?

Vary's slightly with brand, impedence and flow capability....but anywhere from $50 to $80 each is normal.

Bob

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Nice! Glad you went this route, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person. Damn, this engine/car is going to be a monster! I should think you'd see 180+ hp at the rear wheels with complete driveability and manners. Or roughly 3.5 times the wheel hp of a stock Manta.... Got brakes?

So, would you like to see them up close and personal, and possibly spend some quality time with them? The mounting plates are beefy and can (should) be port-matched.

I definitely have to address brakes....and tranny....and rearend. I'm not building a racer, just a "rice cooker". But, I need to find some better options for braking for it to be safe. This has turned into a much longer term project than I had intended, but it's fun working toward dreams and I'm in no huge hurries. The ITB setup was the last expensive item for the top end for a while...next up is to rework the bottom end and get those nice pistons installed! It's looking like I'm going to be relocating for work (yet again) so I'll likely have to put the project on hold for a bit.

Todd K.

Todd K.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by neuropel So, would you like to see them up close and personal, and possibly spend some quality time with them? The mounting plates are beefy and can (should) be port-matched.

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

I definitely have to address brakes....and tranny....and rearend.

What size wheels are you running? 13" wheels are limiting for sure, but there are still options. 15" or bigger allows for almost anything. A Getrag 240 should be fine for street driving. You've got to abuse it to break it. Rear axle is iffy of course, but it also depends on your driving style. If you just like the twisty bits it should be okay, but stoplight races are risky.

It's looking like I'm going to be relocating for work (yet again) so I'll likely have to put the project on hold for a bit.

That can definitely change everything! Staying in-state?

Bob

[neuropel]

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Come on Bob...I'll dance at your next wedding!

What size wheels are you running?

15" ROH Snypers will be used. For brakes, I'd like something better than the '75 big brakes.

A Getrag 240 should be fine for street driving. You've got to abuse it to break it.

I've been leaning toward the T5 tranny, but I guess the verdict is still out. Though this engine is planned for a Manta Rallye, I've often wondered how it'd feel in my '74 with the automatic behind it! I know the TH180 could be built to handle it, and with the right stall converter it would probably be a hoot! Has anyone ever gone this route? I'm curious more than anything...no way I'm sticking an auto behind it.

Rear axle is iffy of course, but it also depends on your driving style. If you just like the twisty bits it should be okay, but stoplight races are risky.

As appealing as the Toyota rearend sounds, I'm concerned there's just too much modification involved. A Quaiffe 3.67 posi unit is what I'd really like to go with, but GOOD GOD are they pricey. My patience has paid off on this project all along. I tend to just wait around until a good deal is found, and I'm hoping this will work out with the quaiffe as well - perhaps I'll spot a good used unit or come across one needing a rebuild at some point.

Originally Posted by RallyBob That can definitely change everything! Staying in-state?

It's looking a LOT like I'm going to be relocating to the Philly area. That way I can pester Duanal, Rick, Jeff and other nearby Opelers more!

Todd K.