EFI Options

[neuropel]

For a "warmed over" 2.4 (stock bottom end, but big valve 2.4 head) going in a MANTA:

Looking for best options from a cost and performance standpoint. I definitely want to go with EFI, and I'm definitely going to go with a Megasquirt controller. I'm just unsure as to which path to take. Here are my current options:

1). I have a set of dBilas intakes (and thermostat housing) for the 2.4. I could go with something along the lines of the Redline DCOE throttle bodies (or a more cost-effective equivalent), bearing in mind that I would have to work out appropriate sensor issues for the Megasquirt (perhaps available for more $$ from Redline or other).

2). Go with trying to source a 3.0 EFI intake and cut two runners off, per RallyBob's thread here. I'm not sure how much of this work I could do myself, aside from chopping off the two runners.

3). I have the 2.4 EFI system that came with the engine I bought, so I can rob parts off that if needed, or modify it to fit under the hood of a MANTA (again would have to be outsourced as I'm assuming I don't have the skill to do that myself).

4). I could also go with a 2.2 setup but I've read that it will rob power...perhaps there's a way to make a 2.2/2.4 hybrid?

Again, just looking for sound advice on what would give me the biggest bang for the buck, keeping in mind that I'm not a skilled machinist. If it gets too radical I'd have to have it done elsewhere, and that's when the cost really skyrockets, often for minimal gain. Longevity and reliability are important factors.

Thanks!
Todd K.

[flipper]

I know this is not for an opel, but look at the information on the website, and download the instalation guide. I put this system on my 911 and i would definately want it for an opel. Look how he did the runners and stuff, it should be pretty easy to do on 4 cylinder. www.bitzracing.com

[tekenaar]

So, you're saying basically stock 2.4 head and valvetrain, right? When you say 2.2 FI on this "kills power", let's address that for a moment. Yes, it won't flow like either the 2.4 FI or the modified 3.0 FI manifold, but that's primarily at the top end.

The 2.2's smaller plenum and runners don't really become a limiting factor for a stock valvetrain 2.4 until ~>4500RPM. Because of higher runner velocities, they tend to produce better torque than the bigger runner manifolds at low to mid RPMs.

Torque is what produces acceleration and is much more important than high-RPM power (HP) production for your "reliable" street car. You don't even have to go to all the exotic options you mentioned, especially if engine remains otherwise basically "stock".

That said, the only mods I would suggest for your specific application is to port match and blend the 2.2 runners to the I/E gasket opening at the head interface. I'd suggest that it's in your best interest to apply a bit of the KISS principle here. JM2CW

[RallyBob]

Hmmm, the 2.4 is a bigger air pump essentially, and can handle larger runners without a loss of torque. In fact, it will gain torque with larger runners at nearly every point in the power band. I would go with a modified 3.0 or 2.4 intake manifold. Choking the airflow will only hurt. JMTCW.

Bob

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Hmmm, the 2.4 is a bigger air pump essentially, and can handle larger runners without a loss of torque. In fact, it will gain torque with larger runners at nearly every point in the power band. I would go with a modified 3.0 or 2.4 intake manifold. Choking the airflow will only hurt. JMTCW. Bob

I stand corrected . . . and not by just anyone!

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by tekenaar I stand corrected . . . and not by just anyone!

Sorry Otto, not trying to tap dance on your toes!

One only needs to look at the HP figures for a 2.0 vs a 2.2 to see how important the intake airflow is. A stock 2.0 produces 110 ps (108 hp) while a stock 2.2 produces 115 ps (113 hp), even though the 2.2 head is far superior to the 2.0's. The small 2.2 intake manifold just chokes it down badly.

Bob

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by neuropel For a "warmed over" 2.4 (stock bottom end, but big valve 2.4 head) going in a MANTA: Looking for best options from a cost and performance standpoint. I definitely want to go with EFI, and I'm definitely going to go with a Megasquirt controller. I'm just unsure as to which path to take. Here are my current options: 1). I have a set of dBilas intakes (and thermostat housing) for the 2.4. I could go with something along the lines of the Redline DCOE throttle bodies (or a more cost-effective equivalent), bearing in mind that I would have to work out appropriate sensor issues for the Megasquirt (perhaps available for more $$ from Redline or other). 2). Go with trying to source a 3.0 EFI intake and cut two runners off, per RallyBob's thread here. I'm not sure how much of this work I could do myself, aside from chopping off the two runners. 3). I have the 2.4 EFI system that came with the engine I bought, so I can rob parts off that if needed, or modify it to fit under the hood of a MANTA (again would have to be outsourced as I'm assuming I don't have the skill to do that myself). 4). I could also go with a 2.2 setup but I've read that it will rob power...perhaps there's a way to make a 2.2/2.4 hybrid? Again, just looking for sound advice on what would give me the biggest bang for the buck, keeping in mind that I'm not a skilled machinist. If it gets too radical I'd have to have it done elsewhere, and that's when the cost really skyrockets, often for minimal gain. Longevity and reliability are important factors. Thanks! Todd K.

For a street 2.4 CIH I would go straight to a LE Jet with the short 30E manifold,
Nice torque & HP with relatively high mileage, and easy to fit.
Cutting the two last runner from this 30E manifold is easy,
Just needs to weld & close the butt (= cheap),
Although as Bob said cutting the two first runners is better for performance.
HTH,
Hiro.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by Hiro For a street 2.4 CIH I would go straight to a LE Jet with the short 30E manifold, Nice torque & HP with relatively high mileage, and easy to fit. Cutting the two last runner from this 30E manifold is easy, Just needs to weld & close the butt (= cheap), Although as Bob said cutting the two first runners is better for performance. HTH, Hiro.

Any more of those 30E manifold/throttles laying around, Hiro? Contact me off-line. Uwe in Germany sent me one, but it has small ports like the 2.2, and I assume 2.8, FI manifolds. Will probably use rear two pairs like Bob for my roller (eventually) 2.4.

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Any more of those 30E manifold/throttles laying around, Hiro? Contact me off-line. Uwe in Germany sent me one, but it has small ports like the 2.2, and I assume 2.8, FI manifolds. Will probably use rear two pairs like Bob for my roller (eventually) 2.4.

Make that two! Perhaps we could share shipping?

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Any more of those 30E manifold/throttles laying around, Hiro? Contact me off-line. Uwe in Germany sent me one, but it has small ports like the 2.2, and I assume 2.8, FI manifolds. Will probably use rear two pairs like Bob for my roller (eventually) 2.4.

Hi Otto,
Nothing new here about these 30E manifolds, sorry!
I guess the one you have might be a 2.5
Because I think the 2.8 was not released with the L Jet EFI,
It was the previous "dinosaur" D Jet like my Commo B GSE.
BR,
Hiro.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by neuropel Make that two! Perhaps we could share shipping?

yes I know this 30E manifold would be useful in the US,
unfortunately as this part never wears,
I trashed the ones I had collected for years,
so did most of my French fellows Opelers!
the only spare I had was sent to Bob,
as a thank for the collaborative work we share by internet.
these manifolds can be found on Ebay.de
already cut for 4 cyl CIH,
so it's somewhat less heavy to ship.
BR,
Hiro.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Hiro yes I know this 30E manifold would be useful in the US, unfortunately as this part never wears, I trashed the ones I had collected for years, so did most of my French fellows Opelers! the only spare I had was sent to Bob, as a thank for the collaborative work we share by internet. these manifolds can be found on Ebay.de already cut for 4 cyl CIH, so it's somewhat less heavy to ship. BR, Hiro.

Another option is perhaps to start fabricating intake manifolds to fit 2.2 and 2.4 heads that will still clear the GT underhood. My friend just bought a CNC mill so the flanges are now easily produced.

BTW I just welded the TB adapter to the cut-down 3.0 intake last night. When I get back from the Maine Rally this weekend perhaps I can finally get a decisive flow test completed. I really want to test a 1.9 EFI intake vs. a stock 2.4 EFI intake vs. the cut-down 3.0 EFI intake with the larger TB (65mm). Unfortunately I currently don't have a 2.2 intake to compare it to, but I did test one for Gil at OGTS about 8 years ago so those results should still be in my records somewhere.

Bob

[neuropel]

Perhaps the best option for my situation would be to find a way to get my existing 2.4 intake cut down so that it'd fit under my manta hood...has anyone done that? Are there details anywhere that I could show a machine shop? Cut it in half across the runners, cut out a chunk, then weld it back ?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by neuropel Perhaps the best option for my situation would be to find a way to get my existing 2.4 intake cut down so that it'd fit under my manta hood...has anyone done that? Are there details anywhere that I could show a machine shop? Cut it in half across the runners, cut out a chunk, then weld it back ?

No drawings that I've ever seen, but I looked at my 2.4 intake and it doesn't seem like a big deal to shorten the runners.

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by RallyBob No drawings that I've ever seen, but I looked at my 2.4 intake and it doesn't seem like a big deal to shorten the runners.

How much would you recommend be taken out, and where? Should the object be to keep it as straight a shot as possible? Just pick a straight section across the runners and chop it?

I could probably get enough out of my twin manifolds to cover the modifications to the 2.4 intake. And is it not the case that the 2.4 manifolds will take many aftermarket injectors that the others will not? I seem to recall reading that here somewhere, perhaps via RallyBob?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by neuropel How much would you recommend be taken out, and where? Should the object be to keep it as straight a shot as possible? Just pick a straight section across the runners and chop it?

Pretty much just have to decide on a height via fitment. Then cut'n'weld...

I could probably get enough out of my twin manifolds to cover the modifications to the 2.4 intake. And is it not the case that the 2.4 manifolds will take many aftermarket injectors that the others will not? I seem to recall reading that here somewhere, perhaps via RallyBob?

Yes, the 2.4 fuel rail uses the newer o-ring style injectors (top and bottom), making aftermarket fitments much easier.

Bob

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Another option is perhaps to start fabricating intake manifolds to fit 2.2 and 2.4 heads that will still clear the GT underhood. My friend just bought a CNC mill so the flanges are now easily produce. BTW I just welded the TB adapter to the cut-down 3.0 intake last night. When I get back from the Maine Rally this weekend perhaps I can finally get a decisive flow test completed. I really want to test a 1.9 EFI intake vs. a stock 2.4 EFI intake vs. the cut-down 3.0 EFI intake with the larger TB (65mm). Unfortunately I currently don't have a 2.2 intake to compare it to, but I did test one for Gil at OGTS about 8 years ago so those results should still be in my records somewhere. Bob

ah that's the flow test I'm very curious about!
if the cut-down 30E intake with big TB flows enough,
then I'll follow this route with my Megasquirt EFI.
I'm off for some holidays,
but don't worry I'll borrow some computer in the remote french countryside...

[jordan]

Has anyone made or used a megasquirt I or II ECU on an opel engine sucessfully? If so would you happen to have base line numbers to set to? overall pros and cons?

[opelwasp]

I will be as soon as I get a new job. No money right now. I will be using a MegaSquirt II on a 2.0L LE Jettronic for my 2.4L conversion. When I start it I will document it all.

[neuropel]

Has anyone else come across this new Extrudabody throttle body setup?
Basically it's extruded aluminum throttle bodies, and they make custom mounting plates (including DCOE mount). Curious to hear opinions on them. To my novice eye they look like a nice alternative to much more expensive products already out on the market.

Products: Throttle Bodies

Todd

[davegt27]

cool link Todd

looks good to me and the price is not real bad


davegt27

[neuropel]

They have some cool videos on their site too, as well as a direct comparison to TWM throttle bodies. There's one bad ass sounding Z car on there as well.

Example Applications

Todd

[neuropel]

I've been emailing back and forth with the Extrudabody guys discussing my application. I sent them pictures of my 2.4 head with the "RallyBob" spec valves and porting, and also some detailed pics of the dbilas intakes that Bob ported. I've copied the relevant info below that I got back from Kevin Thornton at Extrudabody. He really liked the look of Bob's work (big surprise). From the searches I've been doing over the past year, their stuff looks awesome and $795 for a twin weber throttle body setup is VERY affordable. The TWM stuff is over twice that amount.

Any comments?
_______________________________

Cool Car and Cool Project! I like it!

That Intake will Flow some Serious AIR, not only is it big, but someone has done some serious Massaging on it too! The "D" shaped Ports shows someone knows what they are doing! From the bottom Side of the Head it looks very Similar to a SBC head?

The Extrudabody 45mm Twin DCOE Kit will Bolt right on that Manifold with ease! To get your 2 to 3 C to C measurement right it may help to buy our twin kit, bolt it all up and then take your 2 to 3 Measurement to be a little more precise, we can then drill the Rail and send it separate, $10 bucks extra shipping, but worth it for a better fitment!

Our Base Plates have quite a bit of MEAT on them and will allow you to Match Port them to the Manifold as well, that alone should be worth a Few Ponies!

Airtex or Bosch both make a great Pump! The Bosch VW Rabbit Pump will supply up to 300hp @ 45psi of Pressure. Pump is Cable of 90 PSI.

This Monster is a Prime Candidate for Stage Injection, here is a article on it! http://www.usrallyteam.com/content/tech/injector_staging_article.pdf
The cooling effect of the upper Injectors makes a ton more power, but you may be wanting something a little more civilized!

Our $795 Kit plus the $35 to drill the Rail is all you need from us! That includes the Throttle Parts, Rail, Filters, Horns, TPS and TPS Harness! All you need then are Injectors! The Stock Throttle Cable simply goes thru a Brass swivel and is cinched down with a Set-Screw for the throttle Parts.

We have 2 weeks left in the Introductory Pricing, we will have a $200 dollar increase at that time!

[RallyBob]

Todd, a few guys on the rally lists were talking about these TB's earlier this year. They look pretty promising, although I admit I don't know anyone personally who has run them yet.

Bob

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by neuropel Has anyone else come across this new Extrudabody throttle body setup? Basically it's extruded aluminum throttle bodies, and they make custom mounting plates (including DCOE mount). Curious to hear opinions on them. To my novice eye they look like a nice alternative to much more expensive products already out on the market. Products: Throttle Bodies Todd

nice ITB indeed!
I like the modular design,
unfortunately price is still too high for me...
Hiro