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Thread: Performance Racing show

  1. #1
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    Performance Racing show

    I got back from the PRI show.
    Performance Racing Industry -- PRI Show Home
    What a great show!
    Everything for performance/racing........information over load!!
    Got lots of free stuff and info.
    Looked at stuff for my shop/business mostly, lots of machines, software, tools and holding fixtures.

    But I also did some looking for Opel ideas.
    Will post some info and pictures.
    *Schoenfeld Headers, tube benders, header tube donuts.
    *New coatings for reducing friction on cams, pistons, bearings.
    *New Valve guide and seat materials, not beryllium.
    *Roller rockers. Talked to the CNC manager at "Jesel", we got talking about machining for about a 1/2 hour, very experienced machinist and a nice guy. He said to send him some CAD drawings of the rollers, maybe I can get some Opel rocker help from him! Saw lots of high rpm rockers, with clever ways to lighten them and machine them, they use needle rollers bearings on the pins.
    Maybe even design/build a new lighter and stronger racing only Opel lifter.......for RallyBob's salt flat Opel GT
    I do owe RallyBob.

    Oh, I met Ken and RallyBob!
    Great guys!
    Ken, bought Stan's racing GT, glad he is keeping Opel's racing.
    I only got to talk to Bob for a few minutes. He knows engines/mechanical stuff (not just Opel's), he lived up to his reputation!
    But, he was also just a normal guy..........easy to talk to.
    Us Opel folk's are very lucky to have him.
    We have to find other Opel stuff for him to work on, before he moves on to a race team.....he was looking!
    Lyle
    Oh, Cam Effects wasn't at the show!
    Last edited by Tru-Craft; 12-17-2006 at 12:45 PM.

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Well, I just got back from the PRI show a little while ago. Other than the fact that I've been sick the past 4 days, it was a great show to attend. Made a lot of new contacts, saw a lot of new stuff.

    Lyle (Tru-Craft), it was a pleasure to finally meet you! Ken (SVOpel), as usual is was good to see you again....see you at Carlisle next I suspect. And Ernie Bello, my old Opel-racing friend, good to see you too. It's been too many years!

    I talked to some of the header manufacturers as well. Most of them said they could make whatever we wanted. Just need an accurate pattern and design to go from, and an initial order (most wanted 25 headers minimum). Quality ranged from 'okay' to 'awesome', but of course the price and materials change accordingly. It's possible, it just requires a commitment.

    Regarding the infamous roller rockers. I had in my hands one of my early roller rockers, and in fact I found that the guys who made them for me in 1993 were at the show. I plopped the rocker on the counter, and the guy just looked at it, looked at me, and said, 'Oh my god, an Opel, right?'. Well, I inquired about the possibilities of another product run, and he said, 'sure, we could make them again'. They still have the blueprints, and they still have the rollers tips in stock (in fact the Opel-design rollers were used for other rocker arms, so they're stocking items now).

    So it's really not a matter of finding someone to make them, it boils down to money and ordering. Anything's possible for a price!

    Bob

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    Here are a couple pictures of an "Older" F1 motor and racing pistons.
    Note:
    Very, very small skirts and only 2 rings!!!
    Also note the piston's valve relief is convex, so it matces the concave in the valve head!!
    All roller bearings.
    Very short stroke.
    Rods shaped like a "V"
    RallyBob, cut that thing in half an put it in an Opel!

    Lyle
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Regarding the infamous roller rockers. I had in my hands one of my early roller rockers, and in fact I found that the guys who made them for me in 1993 were at the show. I plopped the rocker on the counter, and the guy just looked at it, looked at me, and said, 'Oh my god, an Opel, right?'. Well, I inquired about the possibilities of another product run, and he said, 'sure, we could make them again'. They still have the blueprints, and they still have the rollers tips in stock (in fact the Opel-design rollers were used for other rocker arms, so they're stocking items now).

    So it's really not a matter of finding someone to make them, it boils down to money and ordering. Anything's possible for a price!

    Bob

    that's great news Bob!
    how many sets do you think we should order,
    I guess as this company already did this work before,
    maybe it will not be necessary to order 100s of units?
    cheers,
    Hiro

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiro View Post
    that's great news Bob!
    how many sets do you think we should order,
    I guess as this company already did this work before,
    maybe it will not be necessary to order 100s of units?
    cheers,
    Hiro
    We ordered 48 sets the first time. It was actually much cheaper than ordering just 24 sets (the price per unit was nearly half!). But that was with two people placing the order, myself and Roger Wilson. We split the order: 24 sets for him, and 24 sets for me. About 8 sets of mine went to Europe, another 3 sets I kept, the rest were sold in the US. This was including custom-made lifters, which added to the price of course. I suspect the lash-cap idea could be made to work and would keep the price down. But it has been almost 15 years since that order...I have no idea what the rocker arm cost would be today. I know aluminum raw material costs have tripled in the past two years though.

    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    We ordered 48 sets the first time. It was actually much cheaper than ordering just 24 sets (the price per unit was nearly half!). But that was with two people placing the order, myself and Roger Wilson. We split the order: 24 sets for him, and 24 sets for me. About 8 sets of mine went to Europe, another 3 sets I kept, the rest were sold in the US. This was including custom-made lifters, which added to the price of course. I suspect the lash-cap idea could be made to work and would keep the price down. But it has been almost 15 years since that order...I have no idea what the rocker arm cost would be today. I know aluminum raw material costs have tripled in the past two years though.

    Bob
    hum... still the same problem with small size production,
    I don't know how far we can collect another set of 48 customers,
    but anyway as you know I'm planning to fit my 6 cyl CIH with roller rockers,
    so please keep us posted!
    Hiro

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    This a picture of my new all aluminum, 4 valve, Opel head.
    It's being machined and ported on my brand new $300,000, 5 axis CNC machine!
    No really

    I did get a free hat and T-shirt, from Haas.


    This a a "Jesel" Nascar rocker arm, it's steel and lighter and stiffer than aluminum. Very narrow and tiny roller bearings.

    Hopefully, Bob can get some new valve tip rollers made to replace the ones GTJim has!
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    Lyle and Bob

    Great pisture and info......

    I was off by a week on the show dates:banghead: So I didn't get back to Schoenfeld before they headed to the show. Hope you didn't get dumb looks from them when you stopped by to talk Opel headers...

    Kenny is the person I had been in contact with, did you talk to him?

    I'll buy a head from you when you get that new CNC machining center
    Paul

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    Pathologic Opeler My location opeldean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    I have no idea what the rocker arm cost would be today.

    Bob
    Bob: what about the swedish made roller rockers that you have seen and were of good quality? I believe the current estimate was about $1300 for a swedish set.

    Wouldnt it be more cost effective..possibly...to buy a bunch from sweden as a group buy?

    In the future, I would like roller rockers.


    Thank you:members of opelgt.com for helping me on a 12year reconstruction of the most beautiful car in the world:

    Celeste: 1917cc ,Getrag ,Big valves,ported,ISKY cam on solids,Opel forged rods,9.52 compression,total seal gapless,oil dam,RB gasket mod., DCOE side drafts,sprint,pertronix,SACHS clutch,OGTS & Kadette sway bars,Manta finned pan,no oil leaks. Big brakes. Avatars Photos Carlisle 2010 by Jennie V.

    Driven twice to Carlisle 2,351 miles RT successfully, broke down on first trip

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    Old Opeler My location GTJIM's Avatar
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    Valve end rollers ..

    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Regarding the infamous roller rockers. I had in my hands one of my early roller rockers, and in fact I found that the guys who made them for me in 1993 were at the show. I plopped the rocker on the counter, and the guy just looked at it, looked at me, and said, 'Oh my god, an Opel, right?'. Well, I inquired about the possibilities of another product run, and he said, 'sure, we could make them again'. They still have the blueprints, and they still have the rollers tips in stock (in fact the Opel-design rollers were used for other rocker arms, so they're stocking items now).

    So it's really not a matter of finding someone to make them, it boils down to money and ordering. Anything's possible for a price!

    Bob
    Bob, I have two sets of new rockers here with unhardenable valve end (flanged) rollers. One set 9mm and the other 11/32". Am I reading this right ? There are these rollers available as stocking items? Where and how much? !!
    Please let me know as that would save me making them one at a time on my centre lathe. Thanks!

    Dean, Opels have some peculiar rocker and valve geometry - push rod rockers are not the 'best' solution. Indeed, even the double roller rockers look to need the centre pivot 5mm to 7mm higher up to get better geometry. See: MILLER ENGINEERING and have a good wander about that web site.
    Last edited by GTJIM; 12-17-2006 at 09:36 PM.
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    GTJim, that's how I was reading that info!
    I didn't talk to the guy, but he sounds like he has tooling still available for the Opel project!
    Maybe he still has rollers that are the right material and hardened!

    We don't want to have to tool up for these on our own again!
    I would like some back up parts, so if I break something I have back-up!!!

    But, since we got no help before, I might just make my own custom roller rockers. I do have material and design information from RallyBob & Jesel, will contact Ray and Bob this week.
    Not making custom pins and rollers will be much easier/cheaper, and Aluminum is not the best and only choice for the bodies.
    I could make a set of Precision Prototype Titanium rockers for RallyBob, and if I can get some help from Jesel!!
    I do have some Titanium bar stock that could be donated to this project!
    2 sets would be best!

    1 Purple set for sale!?
    Lyle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul View Post
    Lyle and Bob

    Great pisture and info......

    I was off by a week on the show dates:banghead: So I didn't get back to Schoenfeld before they headed to the show. Hope you didn't get dumb looks from them when you stopped by to talk Opel headers...

    Kenny is the person I had been in contact with, did you talk to him?

    I'll buy a head from you when you get that new CNC machining center
    Paul, yes I talked to Kenny, he seemed interested in the project!
    He said you were in contact with him and he was happy to here others were interested in the project!
    I didn't add much to what you have already done, but he seemed like he could bend the primary tubes, and make the tube ends rectangle to fit in the flange.
    See attached pictures.
    1) The first picture is a header tube donut, stamped steel welded together, used for very tight bends not possible with a tube bender.
    2) CMM used for creating a dimensional program for use on a CNC tube bender.
    3) Tube bender.
    Learned a lot at the show.
    Lyle
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    Last edited by Tru-Craft; 12-18-2006 at 02:19 AM.

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    Another friction reducer is the low tension, narrow cogged tooth belt systems!
    Tiny 40amp altenator and any size aluminum pulley you need.
    Jeff, these would be perfect for your application!
    Lyle
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTJIM View Post
    Bob, I have two sets of new rockers here with unhardenable valve end (flanged) rollers. One set 9mm and the other 11/32". Am I reading this right ? There are these rollers available as stocking items? Where and how much? !!
    Keep in mind the pin diameters are different between the two designs. IIRC, the 'old' rocker arms have a smaller (press-fit) pin, therefore the bodies of the 'new' rocker arms already have an oversized pin hole diameter, and are unuseable with the old-style parts.

    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Keep in mind the pin diameters are different between the two designs. IIRC, the 'old' rocker arms have a smaller (press-fit) pin, therefore the bodies of the 'new' rocker arms already have an oversized pin hole diameter, and are unuseable with the old-style parts.
    Bob
    Bob, if the guy who made your original rockers, stocks the valve end spool rollers. GTJim could just ID grind the under size hole to .257 and make them work.
    Unless the OD's are different!

    I was thinking about future roller rocker bodies being made. While at the show I asked for aluminum extrusion die information for rocker arms.
    If we can find a shape close to your Opel rocker design, that would save alot of machining/money.
    Aluminum like you said has gone way up in price.
    Since we need to use a very strong aluminum like 7075, it is harder to machine and even more expensive.
    A rough rectangle block large enough to make 1 rocker is about $8
    Since your machine shop guy already has the program & fixtures.
    I would guess about $78/rocker body, precision machining is more expensive!
    If he makes 48 sets, $30,000 but that includes anodizing (red).

    Then we need center Chevy pivots modified.
    Standard Chevy roller pins, lifter rollers and snap rings.
    Special spool rollers and lifter caps.
    Assembly.
    $1,200 per set is my quote.
    Lyle

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    It's that time of year again!
    The Performance Racing Industry show in Orlando!
    December 6-8th
    Anybody going to make it?
    What should I look at for Opel's?

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    Going to PRI?

    I will be there and would like to meet any other Opel enthusiast. I will be at the Quality Inn Plaza. Leave a message at the hotel (407) 996-8585 or email jack"at"karz.austin.com.

    Thanks.
    jc
    Last edited by neuropel; 11-30-2007 at 12:39 AM.

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    JC, sounds good, will PM you my info, when I figure out a plan.
    It's a great show.
    My racing neighbor and my other car guy buddy will be heading to PRI with me.
    No wives or girl friends allowed!
    Lyle

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    Opeler jackcartwright's Avatar
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    Enjoyed PRI

    I really enjoyed the PRI show in December. However, I may not be able to afford to go again. Bought 1 tool and am working on getting another. If I buy the second one, I certainy will be off of travel for a while.

    I would strongly encourage anyone to go. I got ideas that I had not ever thought about before. Sorry I didn't get to meet any of you guys. Well, maybe next time.
    jc

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    wow, you guys are truly lucky to know all this stuff, i really look up to you guys and hope i can be just as good one of these days!
    Last edited by opel kid; 01-04-2008 at 10:19 PM.
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