Question: LPG Conversion

[My73Gt]

When I was stationed in Korea all the Daewoo taxi's ran on lpg. The engine in the daewoo was a 2.0 of Opel orgin, has anyone out there converted their car to lpg.

[2 Fast 4 U]

what do you want to know

[My73Gt]

Have you converted your car, any problems, recommendations? Is the process to convert very expensive, what type of mileage are you getting, just about anything you can tell me would be helpful at this point.

Scott

[opelnut10]

Never personally did a conversion but I had a police car that had been converted that I drove for over 1 year. Yes it is expensive to do one, yes they burn much cleaner that a gasoline fueled engine and yes the LPG is well over 100 octane. That is the good news, now for the bad news almost impossible to get a gauge that reads accuratly to tell you how much fuel you have, when it runs out it gives you no warning what-so-ever, fueling stations are few and far between and it is not even close as far as fuel consumption, it uses about 1/4 more LPG to go the same distance on gasoline. Putting the tank and fueling port in a GT is going to be a trick and a danger in the event of a rear-ender. While it is cheaper that gasoline the saving will be eaten up in the install and you will have to drive it a lot and keep it a long time to see any savings (IMHO)

[namba209]

That MPG you noted sounds a lot like I've heard before. Just off the top of my head, 40% lower cost than gasoline, 30% less MPG. So you're right, you'd have to drive a bunch to recoup your initial investment, but then supply and demand will kick in and CNG will cost as much as gasoline or more. Remember diesel fuel some years ago was way cheaper than gas, now it's a lot more. Here in America's Finest City, we have about 6 CNG stations, not too good for the 3rd largest city in the U.S.

[opelnut10]

Originally Posted by namba209 That MPG you noted sounds a lot like I've heard before. Just off the top of my head, 40% lower cost than gasoline, 30% less MPG. So you're right, you'd have to drive a bunch to recoup your initial investment, but then supply and demand will kick in and CNG will cost as much as gasoline or more. Remember diesel fuel some years ago was way cheaper than gas, now it's a lot more. Here in America's Finest City, we have about 6 CNG stations, not too good for the 3rd largest city in the U.S.

The price of the increase in diesel fuel cost is a result of good old oil company politics. People started buying diesel powered cars and light trucks mainly because they got better fuel mileage than their gasoline powered counterparts so......... oil companies said they think that is going to save them money that we want in our pocket......... we will up the price of diesel fuel even though it cost less to refine than gasoline and while we are at it we will dye diesel fuel so people cannot run # 2 heating oil in its place and bio-fuel and french fry oil will not work either as long a BIG OIL has paid lobbyist to work their ways with lawmakers because they will be controling that in some manner (road tax, surcharges etc) IMHO

[namba209]

Originally Posted by opelnut10 The price of the increase in diesel fuel cost is a result of good old oil company politics. People started buying diesel powered cars and light trucks mainly because they got better fuel mileage than their gasoline powered counterparts so......... oil companies said they think that is going to save them money that we want in our pocket......... we will up the price of diesel fuel even though it cost less to refine than gasoline and while we are at it we will dye diesel fuel so people cannot run # 2 heating oil in its place and bio-fuel and french fry oil will not work either as long a BIG OIL has paid lobbyist to work their ways with lawmakers because they will be controling that in some manner (road tax, surcharges etc) IMHO

Yep, without a doubt. It all boils down to one word: GREED
After looking at what the stock market did yesterday, it finally bit them in the A$$. I have mixed emotions about it all, though. The working class will lose jobs, the management will get bail out bucks. Something just isn't right.

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by My73Gt Have you converted your car, any problems, recommendations? Is the process to convert very expensive, what type of mileage are you getting, just about anything you can tell me would be helpful at this point. Scott

I don't know what the costs are in the US, but here in Holland a LPG system can be bought new, installed and certified for about €700.00, a liter LPG costs somewere between €0.60 and €0.67 [gas costs between €1.50 and €1.60 a liter], I get about 6-7 km out of a litre LPG [± 300 km with ± 48l] with a 1972 Ascona [engine 2.0l / 90PS weight 1028 kg]

Fuel consumption is about 10-20% more than with gas, also the engine has to have hardend valve seats because of the bigger heat build up, caused by burning LPG

LPG tank, in my car, is in the trunk and has a capacity of 60l but is filled to max 80% [=48l] pressure in the tank is about 10 Bar, liquid LPG comes from the tank thru a copper pipe to an evaporator/pressure reducer, that is in the enginebay and is connected to the engine cooling system, the gasious LPG goes to a gas piece that is located between the carb body and the throttle valve body.

The point were the use of LPG becomes cheaper than gas depends on the type of LPG system and car [new or bought used] and can vary between 4000-14000 km a year, and if you buy a car already equiped the point is lower.
I hope this answers your questions

[jtb]

Greeting from Canada,

Quite a few LPG conversions running around up here, I have an old Ford pickup on propane, conversion was done years ago, has paid for itself a few times over by now. Filling stations are quite common here. I've noticed when travelling in Washington and Oregon that you never have to look too far to find propane, fuelling stations that have propane for BBQ tanks should be able to fill your tank, also RV places and U-haul seem to always have propane.
The GT should be an easy conversion as it is carburetted. That said, it is tight for space. You can only fill your tank to 80% capacity, BTW, so if you have a 100 litre tank, you can only put 80 litres of propane in it.
My friend just had his newer (injected) Ford van done, it was $4200. Carb, without computer, should be less than half that. The components I've seen are made in Italy and other European countries, which accounts for some of the cost.

HTH,

jtb

[opelwasp]

I was poking around the net and found this site MagneGas Corporation | www.MagneGas.com . The process seams very promising. It uses waste water to make fuel. They can just park it next to a sewage plant and start making power.

[plazaauto]

My husband works for the local propane gas company, every service truck he's had over the last 12 years has run on propane.
1. they smell and you can't park them in an enclosed building. Propane will hang in one area, if it leaks in the garage, it stays in the garage.
2. The ones he's had still need gasoline to start. That means 2 tanks, one for gas one for propane. The propane tanke for his truck sits in the utility body directly behind the cab surrounded by a metal bars to protect the tank incase the truck gets hit.
3. every one he's ever had doesn't have a working fuel gauge, this includes the '07 he's driving now.

I tease him all the time about driving a rolling bomb, but basically that's what it is.

[jtb]

Opelwasp, the site you refer to talks about natural gas, or possibly methane, which is a different animal from propane. We have natural gas powered cars here, but it is a different system, primarily because natural gas is stored at 3000-3600 psi, whereas propane is stored at about 128psi for automotive applications.

Plazaauto, the dual fuel system is common for fuel-injected vehicles, and even some older vehicles, but I have had 100% propane powered vehicles, so gasoline is not required to start.
Some underground parking garages do not allow propane powered vehicles, as IF there is a leak, the propane does sink to the floor. In normal operation, they should not smell, and in fact burn cleaner and have fewer nasty emissions than gasoline powered vehicles.
Fuel guages can be vague, I usually refer to the odometer in addition to the guage.
I don't feel like I'm driving a rolling bomb, if fact, I feel much safer than if I was driving a Pinto!

JMTCW,

jtb

More info: Canso Auto-Propane Conversions - Alternative Fuels > Cost Savings, Environmentally Friendly , Ontario Propane Association | Home Page

[namba209]

jtb, here, in the lower part of the continent, Propane and CNG have an additive put in during the processing to make them smell badly. The reasoning is quite simple, if you can smell it, you've got a leak. If the vapors get to a source of combustion, you get a fiery explosion. As for quantity gauges, the propane tanks in RVs have a gauge on the tank and usually a remote readout in the power control panel. Current regulations for RVs require a leak detector for the LPG systems in them, which includes the stove, heater, and refrigerator.

[kwilford]

Ron, here in Canada (and of course in the USA), all natural gas and LPG's (propanes, butanes, etc.) used for domestic purposes are treated with an "odorant", typically methyl mercaptant, commonly called "skunk gas". This is only done prior to the point of delivery, usually in the distribution company's low pressure system, in order to facilitate leak detection. High pressure transmission systems (such as pipelines that transport natural gas and LPG's greater distances) are not treated, as there is no need for this treatment when it is used for industrial purposes, and in fact can be detrimental to many petrochemical processes.

I believe that bottled propane is all odorized prior to the point of sale. That said, burning the odorized natural gas or LPG does NOT create a smell, as the odorant is consumed in the combustion process.

One "nice" thing about both propane and natural gas is that they are actually safer from an unintentional combustion perspective than the vapours from a liquid hydrocarbon such as gasoline. That is due to the inherently narrow range of "air/fuel" mixtures between the "Upper Explosive Limit" and the "Lower Explosive Limit" (UEL and LEL) in which lower molecular weight gaseous hydrocarbons will combust. In other words, just a bit too much natural gas per unit oxygen will not burn (or explode), nor will too little. Vapourized gasoline will burn (and explode) over a much greater range of air mixtures, so are much more inclined to combust when it isn't a good thing.

[West Coast GT]

Back in my college days I had a project running an internal combustion engine various fuels; one of which was propane. I recall I used a commercially available carburetor that had a gasoline fuel line connection, and a propane connection. I could start up on either gasoline or propane, and switch from one to the other without shutting down. Both ran through the same carb.

I assume these carbs are still available.

[namba209]

Originally Posted by kwilford One "nice" thing about both propane and natural gas is that they are actually safer from an unintentional combustion perspective than the vapours from a liquid hydrocarbon such as gasoline. That is due to the inherently narrow range of "air/fuel" mixtures between the "Upper Explosive Limit" and the "Lower Explosive Limit" (UEL and LEL) in which lower molecular weight gaseous hydrocarbons will combust. In other words, just a bit too much natural gas per unit oxygen will not burn (or explode), nor will too little. Vapourized gasoline will burn (and explode) over a much greater range of air mixtures, so are much more inclined to combust when it isn't a good thing.

Maybe that's the reason we use gasoline in such copious amounts, the carb or FI doesn't have to be exact, just close, to work in our cars. Next time we have a chance to get together, remind me about this, I got a story for you, that can't be discussed here.