electric opel GT - Page 2

namba209 · 10-10-2008

Originally Posted by Geek

The means of producing electricity in large amounts are far superior to the ICE in terms of efficiency, and the electric motor itself is far more efficient than the ICE. I remember reading somewhere that the amount of energy required to give an electric car a 70 mile range was equal to the amount of energy that is contained in about a third of a gallon of gasoline.

I don't dispute that, but as of right now, there are more generating plants using hydrocarbon fuels to produce electricity than there are nuclear, solar and wind generating plants. So it naturally falls that more fuel will be burnt to create the needed electricity than the ICE cars that were replaced. Here's my point: To start a jet engine, with an electric starter, took a 320 cu.in. 6 cylinder aircraft engine, running at 2750 RPM and driving two DC generators. The start time was about a minute total, from no rotation of the jet engine to achieving self-sustaining RPM. That's a fair amount of fuel for a 60 second run of an electric motor pulling 1800 amps @ 28VDC. The whole idea, today, behind the electric car is to reduce hydrocarbon emmisions. My premise is, that electric cars may not reduce the hydrocarbon emmisions the generating plants expel in order to increase the amount of electricty needed for a world wide fleet of those cars. Diesel engines, turbine engines and steam turbines, all run at a given RPM to drive the generators at these plants, when there is an increase in the use of electricty, more hydrocarbon fuel is added to maintain the RPM to drive the generators, or you put more of them on line. So it's a trade-off. Granted, more electric cars will reduce emmisions, but not totally.

Gumby · 10-10-2008

If/when they ever figure out how to get the power density/weight/cost of batteries much closer to hydrocarbon fuels then electric vehicles might become viable to the masses. Until then it is just a play toy for those who have money to burn.

Efficiency in all of these systems is a moot point because at the end of the day in the end users eye it is the $$$ that really matter. The high initial cost is what is supressing the electric car… not the oil companies.

jeff denton · 10-10-2008

Battery technology is reportedly the cause of delay in producing the Chevy Volt. But they promise they are working on it profusely! And then there's the TV commercial about the company that claims to be actually doing the research and development of these batteries. The name of that company? "MOBIL"
I sure like all the electric forklifts I see around here. I want one. Wow, that's quite the battery pack! Great for a forklift, but in a sports car? No way.

GTJIM · 10-10-2008

Originally Posted by Geek

Those are all good sites with good science attached to their theses, but do either of them take into account the amount of efficiency improvement gained from just adding a little water into the fuel mix? Adding water raises the ignition point of the fuel, which should allow a higher compression to be used.

My thesis being that the improvements they are seeing in HHO vehicles are real, but not because of the reasons that they think.

Two different effects -

Water Injection, which smooths combustion, allows higher compression etc. as you note. This does not 'burn' and the increased performance is due to the higher CR possible.

Brown's Gas, which is water elctrolised into seperate molecular Hydrogen and Oxygen and this gas mixture introduced to the motor where it actually burns producing more power becaus it is in addition to the air/fuel mixture and contains its own oxygen.

However you do not getback more power than the electrical energy used to disassociate the gasses ... remember the TANSTAAFL principle.

TANSTAAFL = There ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

hrcollinsjr · 10-11-2008

Originally Posted by oldopelguy

I like the electric car idea myself mostly because I could plug it in at work for free and never at home, so all the operating costs would be transfered to them except for maintenance. Something about that makes me happy.

I use to pose this as an ethics question in class. You do this over how many years and one day someone objects to it. Then they go back and calculate electricity used at commercial rates and want their money back, fire you for employee theft or worse prosecute you! Hmm, let me think about this one again.

Harold

oldopelguy · 10-11-2008

Originally Posted by hrcollinsjr

I use to pose this as an ethics question in class. You do this over how many years and one day someone objects to it. Then they go back and calculate electricity used at commercial rates and want their money back, fire you for employee theft or worse prosecute you! Hmm, let me think about this one again.

Harold

Not if you work for the electric company, and they use the fact that they supply free plug-ins for employee's electric cars for PR. If they are going to provide the facilities and encourage their use, I'd like to be able to use them.

hrcollinsjr · 10-11-2008

Originally Posted by oldopelguy

Not if you work for the electric company, and they use the fact that they supply free plug-ins for employee's electric cars for PR. If they are going to provide the facilities and encourage their use, I'd like to be able to use them.

Touché, very good. I didn't think you were the type to take illegal advantage of a company.

Harold

jeff denton · 10-11-2008

I would allow employees to plug in as a nice little perk. They deserve it. This could become a very common practice, with a value seen as great as any benefits. People here act like they want to be very "green" and our power is hydro. All gas and diesel fuels are trucked in.
All public parking lots could have "electric car parking areas" where they could plug in to a coin-op receptacle.

oldopelguy · 10-11-2008

IRumor is that some Walmarts stores had the cable size going to the parking lot lights oversized enough to allow them to install coin-op outlets in their parking lots. Drop in a quarter for a 20A service for 1/2 hour, more for longer. Last I heard there was issues with the meters keeping them from implementation.

Initially is was for the RV crowd and diesel block heaters, lately more for electric vehicles. If it came to fruition, though, the PR would be amazing.

namba209 · 10-11-2008

Stephen, 20A for a motorhome just doesn't get it. I can blow the circuit breaker just by using the microwave and turning on my coffee pot. Forget about using one of the air-conditioners. Most of today's RVs are set up for 50 amp service. We run into electrical problems almost everytime we go to a dog show, when the AC is supplied by a commercial entity bringin in generators for the show. They just can't handle hundreds of RVs tapping in to their system. It's upsetting to pay $75-$100 for a 2-3 day event and not being able to keep the dogs cool because you keep blowing circuit breakers, or someone down the line does. It would be interesting to see what the amp draw would be on an electrical car, though especially with the size/number of batteries that would be needed for one.

Gumby · 10-11-2008

You'd need more like 220v/80a for something like the Tesla Roadster...

Now imagine that I have a decent sized company with 20 employees, all driving electric vehicles of commercial quality (not home built) all having a 50kWh full charge capacity. Taking into consideration that you are only charging their car for approximately 50% (at most) 5 days per week now you suddenly start to see significant cost issues with this "free" power idea. Just in electricity alone you'd be spending $200 per week. That is like suddenly giving every one of your employees a 25cent raise (which in any business is detrimental to its profit margin). But what this doesn't consider is how much of a demand charge the power company is going to stick you with for the sudden increase in electrical draw you are putting on the system. There also may be needs to upgrade the electrical infrastructure of the building to handle the increased load... another cost.

These numbers would more than double if you lived in a place like California and triple if Connecticut or New York is your state of residence. Where I live, Oregon, power is relatively cheap.

While that idea might be fine for a power company I highly doubt it will ever be a common practice amongst business owners. I know as an employee I'd rather have the 25cent raise instead. I also know as a business owner that this idea is ridiculous. The only upside to this idea that I can see is that if EV ever become the prevalent mode of travel that it will allow your employees to live significantly farther away.

hrcollinsjr · 10-11-2008

Originally Posted by namba209

We run into electrical problems almost everytime we go to a dog show...

I thought that was right before each show when everyone was blow drying their dogs.

Harold

GTJIM · 10-11-2008

Not so long ago the entire US power grid nearly collapsed due to over-loading and lack of capacity - remember the 'brown outs' ??

Now, plug in several million high load car battery recharging set-ups ... and watch the whole shaky electrical distribution system implode!

Grid and generating capacity would have to be doubled, tripled ... or more to provide the electrical energy required. Noticed anyone building 20 more nuclear generating plants recently ??

OR - are cars just going to be 'plugged in' and hope for a miracle ....

namba209 · 10-11-2008

Originally Posted by hrcollinsjr

I thought that was right before each show when everyone was blow drying their dogs.

Harold

That's just bad planning on the owners'groomers part, Harold. We give the dogs a bath before we leave, and each morning before going in to the ring the dogs get a real quick "detailing", which consists of a "dry" bathing and blow-drying session. Thank God for on-board generators. What I like about going to the shows, is, it's really hectic 2 hours before show time, then the rest of the day is total relaxation, with a few times of taking the herd out for a potty break. Lotsa fun.

jeff denton · 10-11-2008

Yes, the concept won't work for everyone, everywhere. It's funny how few people understand electricity. In my business it gets aggravating and then occasionally infuriating. I can tell lots of stories about how stupid people can be. I still chuckle about how a very intelligent construction company owner I once worked for bought a bunch of asphalt stamping equipment and sent his crew out with a nice big 4 hp electric air compressor. And a 750 watt Honda generator to power it. Guess who got called to go figure out why that didn't work?
The next one listened to my pleas to install an electrical outlet on the fence in front of every loader, bulldozer, dump truck and cement mixer he wanted to (reliably) fire up every morning. Done. Thanks. Why didn't it work? Because he didn't explain to the electrician what we were going to be plugging in. When I noticed how the man was wiring it and told him to stop, and plan it better, all I got was "hey, I'm just doing what I was told to do." Yes, within a week it was re-done correctly and it worked. And it was worth it, in case you wonder how miserable it is to suddenly get thirty big diesel engines up and running at 5 AM every morning at -10 degrees F. Quick, what's four hours of 950 watts times 30 cost per month compared to fighting with reliablilty, damage, efficiency, scheduling, and safety and downtime? It's cheap!!
Guess how many times last summer I had an employee tell me he or she needs a raise just to buy the gas needed to show up for work? Surely you don't think I ignored that and just hired and trained a replacement who lives closer to work. I think a system to plug in electric vehicles in the employee parking area is a huge benefit, and it will happen the minute I get my new Volt. I hope each employee can get one, too.

g.rosen · 10-11-2008

Some experience from real life. I drive an electric car on a daily basis, Renault Clio Electrique, 1997, and here are some facts. The car has an DC engine rated 15kW continuous, peak 25kw, and a set of 19 6V NiCd batteries 100Ah in series, a total of 114V. The onboard charger can charge from a one phase, 230V 10A outlet, and will charge the car in about 4-5 hours. Acceleration is BAD, 0 – 100 km/h in about 27 sek, maximum speed 100 km/h. Practical range about 60 km in one charge. The total weight of batteries is about 250 kg, about half of the corresponding amount of lead batteries, and they have an expected lifetime of more than 100 000 km.

The real problem with an electric conversion is to manage the power regulation. At full power the engine uses about 300A, and if I release the accelerator the car will brake by feeding energy back to the batteries, a maximum of about 150A. That is a lot of amps to manage without burning anything. The engine is mounted on the original gearbox, which has been reduced to one fix gear to fit the engine rpm, reverse is obtained by changing the field on the engine.

In Sweden electric vehicles has reduced road tax, and the "fuel" cost difference electricity/gas is about is about 1/6, so it feels like I am actually earning money by going by the Renault.

The advantaged of using a GT for a conversion is of course the low weight of the car, and the relatively roomy engine compartment. My Renault has no spare wheel, the space is used by batteries, and the same could be done in a GT. The best way would be to use in wheel engines and split the batteries between the engine compartment and the spare wheel compartment for weight balance.

Finding suitable batteries is the hard part. You may find a suitable engine, and an engine controller from some electric truck cheap somewhere, but the batteries will need to be high performance traction batteries that can handle a lot of current, and they don’t come cheap. A full battery pack to my car costs about USD 12.000, so you don’t want to burn the them.

LiIon batteries will reduce weight some 30 – 50% compared with NiCd, but they are still very expensive, and have the obvious drawback of catching fire in case of an accident.

Some people are experimenting with a range extender, a diesel powered generator that can boast the batteries, and may increase the range some 30 – 40 %, but unless you tow it behind the car, it will only use valuable space where you can put more batteries instead, so it is not a real solution.

Gunnar

West Coast GT · 10-13-2008

A guy around the corner from me just converted a Porsche 914 to full electric. When I asked, "Why", he said it was because he works here in town and it was frustrating to fire up a cold gas engine and get crappy mileage. The engine wouldn't even be fully warmed up when he got to work; or home. So for him it seemed to work. He keeps his gasoline fueled vehicle for trips out of town and vacations.

I think it's a great idea. Plus, it would be good in case we were to have rationing again. Some of you guys don't remember the lines back in 1974.

hrcollinsjr · 10-13-2008

Originally Posted by West Coast GT

A guy around the corner from me just converted a Porsche 914 to full electric. When I asked, "Why", he said it was because he works here in town and it was frustrating to fire up a cold gas engine and get crappy mileage. The engine wouldn't even be fully warmed up when he got to work; or home. So for him it seemed to work.

Quick example. I inherited my dad's truck a few years ago, 76K on the odometer, mine was 1 month newer with nearly 100K more on it. His trips after retirement consisted mainly of rural driving 4 miles one way to, as my mom called it, the local lier's club and short trips around the farm. The first time I checked the oil the dipstick was so rusted that I ordered a new one because I was scared that I would break it in the tube when inserting it. The valve cover breather was clogged also. Daddy insisted on changing the oil in that truck every 3 mos. or 3000 miles, I change mine every 5000 miles whether it needs it or not.

Electric vehicles make since for short city trips. There is virtually no current draw when sitting at "idle" at stop signs, traffic ligts, and in turn lanes waiting for traffic to clear. Bicycles would be even better. When I was working 7 miles from home I considered this but figured my survival rate wouldn't be very long because of all of the 55mph traffic, some significantly faster than that.

Harold

jeff denton · 10-13-2008

Yes! That is exactly why I want an electric car. Most of the running around we do does not need a gas engine to propel the car. Most of my travel is either chauffering kids (creeping along in traffic) or pulling a 12000 pound load to a party up to a hundred miles away. One could be done with an economy rig and the other certainly requires an HD 2500. I'm certain my gas expense could be cut in half if I had an electric car. There's no power shortage where I live.

10-11-2008	#38 (permalink)
GTJIM 4246 Post Club Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,524 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Remember .... Not so long ago the entire US power grid nearly collapsed due to over-loading and lack of capacity - remember the 'brown outs' ?? Now, plug in several million high load car battery recharging set-ups ... and watch the whole shaky electrical distribution system implode! Grid and generating capacity would have to be doubled, tripled ... or more to provide the electrical energy required. Noticed anyone building 20 more nuclear generating plants recently ?? OR - are cars just going to be 'plugged in' and hope for a miracle ....

10-11-2008	#41 (permalink)
g.rosen Opeler Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 12 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Electric conversion Some experience from real life. I drive an electric car on a daily basis, Renault Clio Electrique, 1997, and here are some facts. The car has an DC engine rated 15kW continuous, peak 25kw, and a set of 19 6V NiCd batteries 100Ah in series, a total of 114V. The onboard charger can charge from a one phase, 230V 10A outlet, and will charge the car in about 4-5 hours. Acceleration is BAD, 0 – 100 km/h in about 27 sek, maximum speed 100 km/h. Practical range about 60 km in one charge. The total weight of batteries is about 250 kg, about half of the corresponding amount of lead batteries, and they have an expected lifetime of more than 100 000 km. The real problem with an electric conversion is to manage the power regulation. At full power the engine uses about 300A, and if I release the accelerator the car will brake by feeding energy back to the batteries, a maximum of about 150A. That is a lot of amps to manage without burning anything. The engine is mounted on the original gearbox, which has been reduced to one fix gear to fit the engine rpm, reverse is obtained by changing the field on the engine. In Sweden electric vehicles has reduced road tax, and the "fuel" cost difference electricity/gas is about is about 1/6, so it feels like I am actually earning money by going by the Renault. The advantaged of using a GT for a conversion is of course the low weight of the car, and the relatively roomy engine compartment. My Renault has no spare wheel, the space is used by batteries, and the same could be done in a GT. The best way would be to use in wheel engines and split the batteries between the engine compartment and the spare wheel compartment for weight balance. Finding suitable batteries is the hard part. You may find a suitable engine, and an engine controller from some electric truck cheap somewhere, but the batteries will need to be high performance traction batteries that can handle a lot of current, and they don’t come cheap. A full battery pack to my car costs about USD 12.000, so you don’t want to burn the them. LiIon batteries will reduce weight some 30 – 50% compared with NiCd, but they are still very expensive, and have the obvious drawback of catching fire in case of an accident. Some people are experimenting with a range extender, a diesel powered generator that can boast the batteries, and may increase the range some 30 – 40 %, but unless you tow it behind the car, it will only use valuable space where you can put more batteries instead, so it is not a real solution. Gunnar

10-10-2008	#27 (permalink)
Gumby Supercharged 2.4 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 537 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	If/when they ever figure out how to get the power density/weight/cost of batteries much closer to hydrocarbon fuels then electric vehicles might become viable to the masses. Until then it is just a play toy for those who have money to burn. Efficiency in all of these systems is a moot point because at the end of the day in the end users eye it is the $$$ that really matter. The high initial cost is what is supressing the electric car… not the oil companies.

10-10-2008	#28 (permalink)
jeff denton former opel racer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: near some glaciers Posts: 2,774 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Battery technology is reportedly the cause of delay in producing the Chevy Volt. But they promise they are working on it profusely! And then there's the TV commercial about the company that claims to be actually doing the research and development of these batteries. The name of that company? "MOBIL" I sure like all the electric forklifts I see around here. I want one. Wow, that's quite the battery pack! Great for a forklift, but in a sports car? No way.

10-11-2008	#33 (permalink)
jeff denton former opel racer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: near some glaciers Posts: 2,774 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I would allow employees to plug in as a nice little perk. They deserve it. This could become a very common practice, with a value seen as great as any benefits. People here act like they want to be very "green" and our power is hydro. All gas and diesel fuels are trucked in. All public parking lots could have "electric car parking areas" where they could plug in to a coin-op receptacle.

10-11-2008	#34 (permalink)
oldopelguy Have Opel, Will Travel Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickens, SC Posts: 1,610 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Logbook Entries: 3	IRumor is that some Walmarts stores had the cable size going to the parking lot lights oversized enough to allow them to install coin-op outlets in their parking lots. Drop in a quarter for a 20A service for 1/2 hour, more for longer. Last I heard there was issues with the meters keeping them from implementation. Initially is was for the RV crowd and diesel block heaters, lately more for electric vehicles. If it came to fruition, though, the PR would be amazing.

10-11-2008	#35 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Stephen, 20A for a motorhome just doesn't get it. I can blow the circuit breaker just by using the microwave and turning on my coffee pot. Forget about using one of the air-conditioners. Most of today's RVs are set up for 50 amp service. We run into electrical problems almost everytime we go to a dog show, when the AC is supplied by a commercial entity bringin in generators for the show. They just can't handle hundreds of RVs tapping in to their system. It's upsetting to pay $75-$100 for a 2-3 day event and not being able to keep the dogs cool because you keep blowing circuit breakers, or someone down the line does. It would be interesting to see what the amp draw would be on an electrical car, though especially with the size/number of batteries that would be needed for one.

10-11-2008	#36 (permalink)
Gumby Supercharged 2.4 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 537 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	You'd need more like 220v/80a for something like the Tesla Roadster... Now imagine that I have a decent sized company with 20 employees, all driving electric vehicles of commercial quality (not home built) all having a 50kWh full charge capacity. Taking into consideration that you are only charging their car for approximately 50% (at most) 5 days per week now you suddenly start to see significant cost issues with this "free" power idea. Just in electricity alone you'd be spending $200 per week. That is like suddenly giving every one of your employees a 25cent raise (which in any business is detrimental to its profit margin). But what this doesn't consider is how much of a demand charge the power company is going to stick you with for the sudden increase in electrical draw you are putting on the system. There also may be needs to upgrade the electrical infrastructure of the building to handle the increased load... another cost. These numbers would more than double if you lived in a place like California and triple if Connecticut or New York is your state of residence. Where I live, Oregon, power is relatively cheap. While that idea might be fine for a power company I highly doubt it will ever be a common practice amongst business owners. I know as an employee I'd rather have the 25cent raise instead. I also know as a business owner that this idea is ridiculous. The only upside to this idea that I can see is that if EV ever become the prevalent mode of travel that it will allow your employees to live significantly farther away.

10-11-2008	#40 (permalink)
jeff denton former opel racer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: near some glaciers Posts: 2,774 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Yes, the concept won't work for everyone, everywhere. It's funny how few people understand electricity. In my business it gets aggravating and then occasionally infuriating. I can tell lots of stories about how stupid people can be. I still chuckle about how a very intelligent construction company owner I once worked for bought a bunch of asphalt stamping equipment and sent his crew out with a nice big 4 hp electric air compressor. And a 750 watt Honda generator to power it. Guess who got called to go figure out why that didn't work? The next one listened to my pleas to install an electrical outlet on the fence in front of every loader, bulldozer, dump truck and cement mixer he wanted to (reliably) fire up every morning. Done. Thanks. Why didn't it work? Because he didn't explain to the electrician what we were going to be plugging in. When I noticed how the man was wiring it and told him to stop, and plan it better, all I got was "hey, I'm just doing what I was told to do." Yes, within a week it was re-done correctly and it worked. And it was worth it, in case you wonder how miserable it is to suddenly get thirty big diesel engines up and running at 5 AM every morning at -10 degrees F. Quick, what's four hours of 950 watts times 30 cost per month compared to fighting with reliablilty, damage, efficiency, scheduling, and safety and downtime? It's cheap!! Guess how many times last summer I had an employee tell me he or she needs a raise just to buy the gas needed to show up for work? Surely you don't think I ignored that and just hired and trained a replacement who lives closer to work. I think a system to plug in electric vehicles in the employee parking area is a huge benefit, and it will happen the minute I get my new Volt. I hope each employee can get one, too.

10-13-2008	#42 (permalink)
West Coast GT Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: San Francisco Bay Area Posts: 841 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	A guy around the corner from me just converted a Porsche 914 to full electric. When I asked, "Why", he said it was because he works here in town and it was frustrating to fire up a cold gas engine and get crappy mileage. The engine wouldn't even be fully warmed up when he got to work; or home. So for him it seemed to work. He keeps his gasoline fueled vehicle for trips out of town and vacations. I think it's a great idea. Plus, it would be good in case we were to have rationing again. Some of you guys don't remember the lines back in 1974.

10-13-2008	#44 (permalink)
jeff denton former opel racer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: near some glaciers Posts: 2,774 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Yes! That is exactly why I want an electric car. Most of the running around we do does not need a gas engine to propel the car. Most of my travel is either chauffering kids (creeping along in traffic) or pulling a 12000 pound load to a party up to a hundred miles away. One could be done with an economy rig and the other certainly requires an HD 2500. I'm certain my gas expense could be cut in half if I had an electric car. There's no power shortage where I live.