Breaking Point

[Johnvan]

Everyone has their own way of pricing auto restoration which varies greatly on the original car and what the owner wants and the quality of the restoration. You can't price what you don't see and to compare to another car is unreasonable. Generally most shops do their honest best to determine price considering there can be so many hidden potenially serious rust conditions. For instance an original unmolested car can be easier to price than a previously restored car needing to be redone. A previous restored car may have numerous layers of paint needing removal along with extensive removal of filler and tar etc. which may hide some very serious problems and greatly increase the restoration cost. Similarily I always cringe when someone comes up with a used door or fender apparently already repaired and in primer as in most cases it won't fit the car or needs to be totally redone due to wavy filler or poor welding. Unless you come up with a clean unmolested panel it is usually better and cheaper in the long run to repair the one on the car.
I price some body and paint with a firm price and others with a reserve for hidden damages. Generally, the Austin Healeys I do are paid a portion for materials in advance followed by payment per hour until completion, which can take a year or two because usually there is nothing left of them. For instance, the latest car I'm doing the owner wants every part fabricated to new including the firewall. If this car were priced upfront I'd lose my shirt. The prices the body guys here have listed sound very reasonable for the large amount of work they are completing.

[David McCollam]

Dennis,

I'd be glad to sell parts to people on the website. Most everyone on the site wants something basically for nothing. I've given stuff away, up to and including cars. It seems everything is "rare" as people talk about it, but if you have something for sale it gets cheap in a hurry.

For example, I have an NOS 2.0L engine for sale at a reasonable price; however, there does not seem to be a market. Most folks would rather spend twice the price to build something from an assortment of parts in contrast to purchasing a known, assembled, factory engine. I personally don't understand the bent of some of the site members for the obscure, but there seems to be a great deal of it.

All I would like to do at this point is finish what is started and not need worry about a constant outflow of expense associated with the Manta. I appreciate the viewpoints offered and the experiences of those who are continually spending on thier Opels. I look forward to the day when I can close my wallet on this one. Hopefully, it's before I have to close my bank account.

[Johnvan]

Originally Posted by David McCollam Dennis, I'd be glad to sell parts to people on the website. Most everyone on the site wants something basically for nothing. I've given stuff away, up to and including cars. It seems everything is "rare" as people talk about it, but if you have something for sale it gets cheap in a hurry. For example, I have an NOS 2.0L engine for sale at a reasonable price; however, there does not seem to be a market. Most folks would rather spend twice the price to build something from an assortment of parts in contrast to purchasing a known, assembled, factory engine. I personally don't understand the bent of some of the site members for the obscure, but there seems to be a great deal of it. All I would like to do at this point is finish what is started and not need worry about a constant outflow of expense associated with the Manta. I appreciate the viewpoints offered and the experiences of those who are continually spending on thier Opels. I look forward to the day when I can close my wallet on this one. Hopefully, it's before I have to close my bank account.

I hate selling used parts for the same reason and it takes up a lot of time I don't have. Other people like doing it or as a business where it is part of their regular day. Thank heaven for them. An engine is usually hard to sell because people aren't sure of condition and shipping can be expensive therefore they are quicker to rebuild their own or buy a rebuild. Other large parts can also be expensive to ship making it difficult to sell.
Restoring a car is an expensive and emotionally difficult process but well worth it in the end.Try to hang in there! Wishing you the best of good fortune, John

[Bill Hoffmann]

Originally Posted by RallyBob I personally spent about 80 hours making repair panels (he charges $95 per hour), and they spent almost 200 hours making an entirely new wood framework for the body (it's a 1927 Buick) due to termite damage.

Bob,

Any chance of seeing photos of the '27 Buick? My dad's first car was a '28 Pontiac and he told me he had to rebuild the wood frame around the windshield and his mother sewed a new top for it (it was the 2 door coupe). It wasn't a restoration so much as repair - this was in the late '30s. I always had my eye out for that car at shows and museums, and finally found one, although it was a sedan. It was at the Nethercutt museum in Sylmar, CA during the OMC festivities a few years ago. Anyway, it would be interesting to see a similar vintage Buick.

Bill

[West Coast GT]

This thread brings up an important point for all of us to consider; it costs to restore a car, and it cost a lot more to have someone else restore it.

And while purchase price of an Opel remains ridiculously low, the restoration costs are enough to make us consider whether we want a "restoration" or just a "refreshening" of the car.

If anyone is into their Opel as an investment, or the thought of ever recouping their expense, sorry, won't happen. But if one expects to drive a very cool and infrequently seen car for less money than purchasing a new sports car, hey, get an old Opel. (Boy am I going to feel stupid the 1st time a GT sells for a million bucks at Pebble Beach in the year 2021)

_______

I understand Mr. McCollam's frustration. Most of us have been there (just not always with our Opel).

But I'd personally like to see the forum stay away from putting a fellow member & businessman on the spot where he needs to publicly defend his pricing or project management. It puts them into a no-win scenario.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Bill Hoffmann Bob, Any chance of seeing photos of the '27 Buick?

Bill...my bad, it's a '25 Buick Model 40. Here's a link to some pics, but they're all tiny (they don't expand). The car owner has this website set up to show the pics, my boss Jesse emails him updates weekly.

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Shop pics

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by West Coast GT I understand Mr. McCollam's frustration. Most of us have been there (just not always with our Opel). But I'd personally like to see the forum stay away from putting a fellow member & businessman on the spot where he needs to publicly defend his pricing or project management. It puts them into a no-win scenario.

Being in the middle of all of this, it's kind of difficult for me to say much. I don't think David M.'s intent was necessarily to put anyone on the spot. I do agree with your statement though.

Harold

[Johnvan]

Opels are very reasonable to restore compared to many other cars as they are fairly simple and well designed with a very good parts supply for such a rare vehicle. Parts are also fairly priced. Chrome along with engine and interior detailing is not so elaborate as to be cost prohibitive. The average guy could restore most of it himself and a shop restoration cost is not extreme. Club support and this site are also very helpful.

[opelspyder]

Things are coming together on the "Breaking Point Manta"
Here are a few pics of shell painted. Makes you want to eat some Wurther's Originals.
Keith
TNOpels

[Rionart]

Oh...shiny!!!.....
What colour is that Keith?

[timemachine]

Originally Posted by Rionart Oh...shiny!!!..... What colour is that Keith?

It's very YELLOW, that's for sure. Hard to tell with different lighting and cameras but if it's a stock color, it has to be signal yellow. If not, it looks pretty damn cool anyway.

Jim

[OpelJim]

Got to throw my 2 cents in. Looks like very through and professional work to me.

As some of you know Usa Opel/Opels Forever restores Opels

We work just the same as "blancojp"

I have found that restoration repairs to the Opel GT that has been sitting for any lenght of time, are often the same things :

#1 The wiring harness has to be replaired where mice have chewed the wires, and for sure the headlights redone.
#2 Sometimes the cracked fuse box repaired. (we install the brace in any event)
#3 The gas tank has to be cleaned/flushed out or completely reconditioned. Most all the fuel lines replaced and a new Fram fuel filter installed. A Weber exchanged for the Solex (unless the customer wants to keep it stock then a rebuild is in order most of the time) New air filter
#4 The cooling system reconditioned (we install a petcock in the radiators lower tank too) Most of the time the water pump is shot,fan belt too
#5 All old gear oil (and all fluids in general) removed from the rear axle and 4 speed gear box gears cleaned and new oil filled in both. New gaskets installed
#6 Oil and filter changed with a ZDDP additive added.
#7 All the tune up parts changed.
#8 Check brake system replace the rubber hoses and all the components checked to be replaced as needed. new fluid and bleed the lines.
#9 Exhaust system checked (usually the rear resonator needs to be replaced)
#10 The heating system The heater control valve and core usually need to be replaced, hoses and thermostat too
#11 The suspension This is the one that almost every Opel needs work on.
The rack needs boots and CV joint grease and sometimes new bearings too.
Most of the time the tie rod ends, ball joints and shocks too
#12 Drive train... engine, transmission, rear end rebuild these as needed
#13 ... ... etc Tires, stereo and speakers, carpeting, headliner, seats, door panels, door seals, all rubber glass gaskets, rear hat tray, tire deck and cover,gauges and instrument panel,dashboard etc etc etc

Manta's and Kadett's are a little different but even they have some common problem areas i.e. fuse box tray, wheel well rust, gas tank panel corrosion, trunk rubber ....


Ok so now there is body and paint work to do
Man does all this add up !!

Out here in Cal some paint and body shop give us a great price i.e. a belly pan repaired, a fender dent repaired, car prepped, taped and primered, and then color coated and clear coat, buffed out too.
This GT we did cost about $4,700.00 to get all that done to it.
Another Opel cost $1,200.00 to paint the whole car inside and out (except the engine bay) including some panel rust repair.
Still another GT with no body work just sand prep and paint is $1,800.00 materials and labor.
I remember having my own Gt done and it was over $3,000.00 just for the drivers side rear tail section repair. (used NOS sheet metal parts)

We use 4 different paint shops (and an in house body guy) depending on the level of quality wanted.
For a complete custom job it is not unlikely to be in the $5,000.00 to $6,000.00 range, some custom shops just quote $5,000.00 to $10,000.00 as it all comes down to time and materials.
Most paint and body shops out here do insurance claim work on new cars and will not touch the custom antique type of work.

In any event it is a time consuming process and even at a fair $$$ per hour cost it will creep up to more than expected especially with unknown and hiden problems that crop up.

At the end of the day I agree that the communication between customer and shop should be constant, so that all problems are discussed and solved while the restoration process is taking place. Can not eliminate surprises they will come up and be revealed as the process moves on.

That is how we roll out here
JMTCW

Jim

[opelspyder]

The color is Rallye gold, which is the factory color. Jim, sounds like a big advertisement???? But there is a lot to restoring cars, I just do the work and it shows later, thats how I am staying so busy with the Opels. I actually have a shop full and trying to get a couple done at a time. Dave will be pleased with the car, as it is very straight. I will cut and buff on it soon, and lay out the rallye scheme with side stripe. I am actually more into the GTs and Kadetts, but this has been an interesting change

Keith

[Rionart]

I like the fact you painted 2 gas caps..as long as you have a spare, you'll never need it....

[Phoenix]

I love it. Would be awesome to have a yellow GTE here in the states.....

[OpelJim]

I was actually supporting your efforts and work just explaining how involved a restoration project is

Glad to hear you are busy We had 7 Opels in and out so far this year so that is good for us too

Between TN and CA we should help many Opel owners
Keep the cars rolling

Jim

Originally Posted by opelspyder The color is Rallye gold, which is the factory color. Jim, sounds like a big advertisement???? But there is a lot to restoring cars, I just do the work and it shows later, thats how I am staying so busy with the Opels. I actually have a shop full and trying to get a couple done at a time. Dave will be pleased with the car, as it is very straight. I will cut and buff on it soon, and lay out the rallye scheme with side stripe. I am actually more into the GTs and Kadetts, but this has been an interesting change Keith

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by opelspyder The color is Rallye gold, which is the factory color.Keith

I've always had a dislike for Rallye Gold. All I've ever seen were faded shades of the original. I may take a liking to this color after all.

Harold

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by OpelJim Got to throw my 2 cents in. Looks like very through and professional work to me. As some of you know Usa Opel/Opels Forever restores Opels We work just the same as "blancojp" That is how we roll out here JMTCW Jim

I don't believe this to be an accurate statement!

[opelspyder]

I thought that was funny, I never say I do stuff like anyone. Of course when you feel you are the best, why would you. ha,ha
Keith

[jlthunder]

Originally Posted by Rionart I like the fact you painted 2 gas caps..as long as you have a spare, you'll never need it....

I noticed that too. Maybe it is a rare "dual tank" Manta

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by OpelJim I was actually supporting your efforts and work just explaining how involved a restoration project is Glad to hear you are busy We had 7 Opels in and out so far this year so that is good for us too Between TN and CA we should help many Opel owners Keep the cars rolling Jim

I've thought about this before. So many people are saving them and restoring them. There may come a time where it's hard to find one that is completely rusted out.

[opelspyder]

The two caps was Daves wishes, and it makes great sense. Because they are painted and down low, its easy to drop one and chip it up, so haveing an extra is a good idea already painted.
Keith

[jlthunder]

Originally Posted by opelspyder The two caps was Daves wishes, and it makes great sense. Because they are painted and down low, its easy to drop one and chip it up, so haveing an extra is a good idea already painted. Keith

Smart move since it will one day roll off of the car when refueling and get chipped. If all fails, he can get a chrome one from a Luxus which has a lock.

[OpelJim]

" 1) Step 1 - remove outer accessories, remove paint and media blast the outer shell. Review the findings with the customer and determine a working estimate. This was done to my Ascona in 8.5 hours without taking the glass off (11.2Hrs with glass off). This would be approx. $ 900.00 including materials.

2) Step 2 - get all body work done and prepare for paint. Again, go over the vehicle with the customer and determine the paint stage. The Ascona is fairly straight and requires about 12Hrs of body work and prep. This would be approx. $ 1,450.00 including materials.

3) Step 3 - Final preparation stage and paint. If the car will be color sanded, the paint work will be slightly different to accomodate the loss of material. Our standard prep is done in 4Hrs and then the body is painted. We will use our standard or level #1 paint job for this quote. This would be approx. $ 2,150.00 including color sand and polish

The shell is now painted and a final review with the customer. Once the customer sees the shell and signs off, we then put the car back together and deliver the vehicle. Final assembly is a flat $ 400.00 charge for small vehicles.

The grand total of the bill is $ 4,900.00 which the customer pays gladly since he was part of and approved every step of the repairs.

Like I said, I can't comment on what you originally agreed and I did not see the car when you started. But a fairly straight car with no rust issues, the $ 4,900.00 figure above is a good guide line for a showroom results. "

We do this process the same as you. That is what I was refering to and our customers approve every step too, also the same as you do.

Originally Posted by blancojp I don't believe this to be an accurate statement!

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by OpelJim " 1) Step 1 - remove outer accessories, remove paint and media blast the outer shell. Review the findings with the customer and determine a working estimate. This was done to my Ascona in 8.5 hours without taking the glass off (11.2Hrs with glass off). This would be approx. $ 900.00 including materials. 2) Step 2 - get all body work done and prepare for paint. Again, go over the vehicle with the customer and determine the paint stage. The Ascona is fairly straight and requires about 12Hrs of body work and prep. This would be approx. $ 1,450.00 including materials. 3) Step 3 - Final preparation stage and paint. If the car will be color sanded, the paint work will be slightly different to accomodate the loss of material. Our standard prep is done in 4Hrs and then the body is painted. We will use our standard or level #1 paint job for this quote. This would be approx. $ 2,150.00 including color sand and polish The shell is now painted and a final review with the customer. Once the customer sees the shell and signs off, we then put the car back together and deliver the vehicle. Final assembly is a flat $ 400.00 charge for small vehicles. The grand total of the bill is $ 4,900.00 which the customer pays gladly since he was part of and approved every step of the repairs. Like I said, I can't comment on what you originally agreed and I did not see the car when you started. But a fairly straight car with no rust issues, the $ 4,900.00 figure above is a good guide line for a showroom results. " We do this process the same as you. That is what I was refering to and our customers approve every step too, also the same as you do.

Jim you do Opel work and might use a similar work deliniage procedure with the customer, I grant you that. My shop does not work on Opels however to state you work the same as we do in our shop is by far, an inaccurate statement. Every shop is unique in their ways and we are quite unique in ours.

My shop restores and performs resto mods on classic vehicles.

The only Opels we work on in my shop belong to me.