Breaking Point

[David McCollam]

At this juncture I am a a breaking point. I currently have a 1974 Manta Rallye with the factory sunroof. The car has a rebuilt 1.9L, .040 over engine with a Getrag 240. I have been working on this car for several years. It has some rust issues that I had planned to fix.

However, in lieu of this I purchased an identical Manta shell, sunroof and all. The shell is in the middle of paint. I have been informed that after the approximately $3,500 in materials and labor expense to date, I can expect it to be finished in another $3,000. This is not to mention the additional time and expense to swap over the drivetrain and interior.

I do not believe that any additional investment in this project is merited. Any thoughts?

[Paul]

Originally Posted by David McCollam I do not believe that any additional investment in this project is merited. Any thoughts?

Option 1
Discontinue the project... you will out the $3500 and you get nothing in return

Option 2
Sell the shell that is being painted.... you would be out about $2500 because I don't think you will be able to sell it for more than $1000.

Option 3
Give both the Rallye and the shell away to a charity and take tax deduction on your 2009 taxes. In the mean time I am preparing the paper work to become a tax legal charity so that I can be the recipient of your kind heartedness

[hrcollinsjr]

Dave,

Have you voiced your concerns with the party doing the paint and body work. What were your origin estimates on the job? I'm sure you will have a nice car when done that may or may not be worth what you have invested in it.

I purchased a Bush Hog a few years ago that my wife assured me we could get repaired rather cheaply and save a few dollars. Approx. a year later we had a nicely repaired Bush Hog! For $500 more though I could have bought a brand new mower, different brand, with warranty and put it to immediate use. When some of the things needing repairs were discovered I had no choice but to finish. Half way into the project it became apparent that I had listened to my wife one too many times . I could have abandoned the project and sold it losing almost all that I had invested in it and still need a mower or continue on and have a mower. I continued on.

Harold

[73Manta72gt]

I put about the same money into my Manta. If you intend to keep the car and enjoy it, then it's worth it. Finish it and save a Manta!!

[dallasmanta]

Dave, I understand the choices you face.

I am not sure I understand why you need an additional 3K to finish the shell based on our phone call a few weeks ago. You already have more $$ in the project that most manta die hard folks are willing to spend because of the ROI/ Value equation.

So Having said that You are already down a dark hole the question you need to answer is will you get enough return out of this labor of love from the pleasure the Manta will give you once you are finished with the project and driving it.

Your Z project and Manta project are like two mistresses who demand your time and money Ron

[yellaopelgt]

It sounds as though you are backed into a corner.......
My way of thinking is if I figure to spend XXXX amount of $$ on a project, realistically speaking....I DOUBLE IT! Saves me the aggrevation in the long run.
I have had my GT for over 15 years now....and I've sunk more cash into it over the years than I'd really care to admit(or think about) But I still look at it as a hobby.....and it makes me happy!! Once the hobby loses its appeal...its time to go...
If you have a running ,driving car at this point,why not put the other one on the back-burner for a while? Hell......I havent even put 6 thousand miles on my car in the 15 years I've owned it!!!! THAT should tell you alot about my "hobby"!!
As someone else so delicately put it: this car IS my mistress!!!! She doesnt give me grief,she's patient,doesnt judge me,the list goes on and on......
I can understand your frustration and concern,but in all honesty...NONE of us that own an Opel will EVER break even from selling one. Its a labor of love and thats all there is to it.

Joe

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by David McCollam At this juncture I am a a breaking point. I currently have a 1974 Manta Rallye with the factory sunroof. The car has a rebuilt 1.9L, .040 over engine with a Getrag 240. I have been working on this car for several years. It has some rust issues that I had planned to fix. However, in lieu of this I purchased an identical Manta shell, sunroof and all. The shell is in the middle of paint. I have been informed that after the approximately $3,500 in materials and labor expense to date, I can expect it to be finished in another $3,000. This is not to mention the additional time and expense to swap over the drivetrain and interior. I do not believe that any additional investment in this project is merited. Any thoughts?

David:
I normally don't comment on work arranged or to be performed by a competitor however, it seems rather a high amount for the work. If the shell had rust issues or major deformalities, then you can expect a high dollar figure on the repairs. But if the vehicle was somewhat straight and required minor body work and paint, then you are over paying for the repairs. You would need to evaluate what the initial estimate was and what went sour to increase the amount.

As an example, we have a three step process for semi-restorations. A semi-restoration is a vehicle which the owner does not want to spend too much. But for this excercise, we will use my '72 Ascona to generate a sample price.

1) Step 1 - remove outer accessories, remove paint and media blast the outer shell. Review the findings with the customer and determine a working estimate. This was done to my Ascona in 8.5 hours without taking the glass off (11.2Hrs with glass off). This would be approx. $ 900.00 including materials.

2) Step 2 - get all body work done and prepare for paint. Again, go over the vehicle with the customer and determine the paint stage. The Ascona is fairly straight and requires about 12Hrs of body work and prep. This would be approx. $ 1,450.00 including materials.

3) Step 3 - Final preparation stage and paint. If the car will be color sanded, the paint work will be slightly different to accomodate the loss of material. Our standard prep is done in 4Hrs and then the body is painted. We will use our standard or level #1 paint job for this quote. This would be approx. $ 2,150.00 including color sand and polish

The shell is now painted and a final review with the customer. Once the customer sees the shell and signs off, we then put the car back together and deliver the vehicle. Final assembly is a flat $ 400.00 charge for small vehicles.

The grand total of the bill is $ 4,900.00 which the customer pays gladly since he was part of and approved every step of the repairs.

Like I said, I can't comment on what you originally agreed and I did not see the car when you started. But a fairly straight car with no rust issues, the $ 4,900.00 figure above is a good guide line for a showroom results.

I hope you sort your problem out and get that vehicle back on the road.

[SpringGT]

Originally Posted by David McCollam At this juncture I am a a breaking point. I currently have a 1974 Manta Rallye with the factory sunroof. The car has a rebuilt 1.9L, .040 over engine with a Getrag 240. I have been working on this car for several years. It has some rust issues that I had planned to fix. However, in lieu of this I purchased an identical Manta shell, sunroof and all. The shell is in the middle of paint. I have been informed that after the approximately $3,500 in materials and labor expense to date, I can expect it to be finished in another $3,000. This is not to mention the additional time and expense to swap over the drivetrain and interior. I do not believe that any additional investment in this project is merited. Any thoughts?

A firm written quotation at the start probably would offered you some protection from "price creep", but that is all just perfect hindsight now. Get one for any subsequent work that this shop does.

However, your $3500 is a sunk cost at this point in the project and you will have to absorb it whether you choose to finish the Manta or not. It should not be a factor in your decision making about where to go from here. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be mad over it; just don't let it adversely affect your future choices.

The decision of whether to go ahead with the project or "bluebird" it should be made on the basis of whether or not it is worth $3000 to you have a like-new Manta afterward and nothing more, assuming the shop can deliver the finished car for that amount. Your call! IMHO

Good Luck!
Bob

[opelspyder]

Guys, it is no secret that I am performing the paint job on this car, and I appreciate everyone sharing their own experiences. But read closely, Dave isn't necessarly saying it's because of the high cost of a paint job, that has gotten him to his breaking point. But total cost of his project and investment. He wants quality and quality materials, and thats why I am doing it. Every shop has a different way and different materials in which they do the work with. I still have rust in the doors to fix, body work on the removables and the prime and paint. Not to mention the engine bay and the rallye paint and stripes. If I felt that it was the cost of the paint job that was getting to Dave, I would give him all his money back-thats what kind of friend he is. But I won't sacrifice doing a lack-luster job, or cut corners for someone that wants top notch quality.
Keith

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by opelspyder Guys, it is no secret that I am performing the paint job on this car, and I appreciate everyone sharing their own experiences. But read closely, Dave isn't necessarly saying its because of the high cost of a paint job, that has gotten him to his breaking point. But total cost of his project and investment. He wants quality and quality materials, and thats why I am doing it. Every shop has a different way and different materials in which they do the work with. I still have rust in the doors to fix, body work on the removables and the prime and paint. Not to mention the engine bay and the rallye paint and stripes. If I felt that it was the cost of the paint job that was getting to Dave, I would give him all his money back-thats what kind of friend he is. But I won't sacrifice doing a lack luster job, or cut corners for someone that wants top notch quality. Keith

I did not know who was working on the vehicle however I did get a few calls today on this thread. Just out of curiosity, what have you repaired on the vehicle so far?

You don't have to answer if you don't want to but other inquiring minds want to know!!!!

[wrench459]

I'm almost glad that your body-man's running into the same problems I'm having on quoting a price for anything.
Guys, it must be kept open-ended . . . there's no way that we can anticipate the unexpected.
Had one today that after a few hours of work the intake air temp sensor was not reading properly. Who's fault was that? I, for one, don't own this car, did not engineer the car....

[Gordy]

Here's one way to look at it Dave. (and believe me I know how you feel- I just got my first estimate to re-do my Kadett which needs just minor rust repair in the trunk floor and both lower 1/4 panels...$9800 with paint etc (and I have taken everything off the car myself...(glass, trim, bumpers etc) so I will get a few more estimates and make some concessions (and maybe do the initial sanding on the car etc) and be happy to get it down in the 5-6000 range.)
I figure in Texas you get a lot more months of use out of driving your hobby cars than we do up north here, where we pack ours away in Nov. and bring them out again in April....you probably get to use yours most of the year.
Stop and think what $10,000 would buy you at your local used car dealer....a 06 Dodge Neon maybe (did they even make the Neon in 06?)((and remember, they are called "Neon" because if you hit anything at over 30mph, you probably loose your leg from the "knee-on" down)) or maybe a 4 year old Malibu, I don't know. What ever it is, that $10,000 car you would buy will be worth about $2000 4 years from now. 8 years from now...$600 etc.
That being said your Manta 10 years from now will be worth more than it is today. (worth what you put into it, maybe, maybe not.. but closer to it...that gap will narrow (and in the meantime you are enjoying it).
Use your heart and not your head on this one. If we used our heads, the only cars we'd be restoring would be Hemi Cudas and Split Window Coupe Corvettes. If a very nice Manta is what you want, it is worth it and move ahead and enjoy it. If it's not a car you will treasure in the end, take the loss now.
It's like that previously mentioned Neon, 5 years from now, when it needs $800 in brake work to keep it fit to drive...do you put the $ into it when you know the car's only worth $700....even after the brakes have been fixed hhmmmm. There's always going to be those decisions...
I just had my seats to an upholstery shop and they want $1700 to re-pad and recover the seats. I can save $400 by removing all the old covers and padding, sandblasting the springs and frames, and priming and painting the springs and frames myself with Rustoleum paint then taking that and the old covers for them to use as a pattern, back down to them. Then I concentrate on how much I'm saving rather than how much I'm spending (my wife thinks about that end of it for the both of us ). I got the headliner and carpet set from Jim at USA Opel, some nice E Bay door and 1/4 panel panels for $150, and for $2000 the interior will be like new.
Sorry for being long winded, but hopes that helps.

[David McCollam]

Keith,

Sorry to not get with you last night. I was in the garage fixing the wipers on the Datsun. Do you need doors for the Manta? I have both doors that are in great condition and primed for paint. At this time, I need to make sure we can save $$ where possible without sacrificing quality or spending an excess in time. I have no doubt that the quality and detail of the work is not top notch. The GT you rebuilt and chronicled is evidence of that.

Just needed to vent about the Manta. Can't say that anyone in an Opel project is not at this point sometime. Harold sent an e-mail saying that he may not be able to work on the project as he wished eariler. I guess that timing is not working in my favor at the moment.

When complete this car will have a virtually new interior, rebuilt high compression 1.9L (2.0L FI), 5-speed, front vented disc brakes, completely rebuilt brake system, 3.67 differental (Opel factory limited slip). Guess it could be worse since all of those pieces are already prepared and ready to install.

Let me know about the doors.

Thanks,

Dave

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by David McCollam Harold sent an e-mail saying that he may not be able to work on the project as he wished eariler. I guess that timing is not working in my favor at the moment. Thanks, Dave

Sorry to leave that impression Dave, I didn't mean to. I still plan on doing the work. I said I would! I plan to get on it pretty hard when I get it.

Harold

[newman27]

David,

If it makes you feel any better, I can assure you from first hand knowledge two things about Keith:

• His work is top notch and thus worth the fees charged (the car shows I've won with my car is evidence of this)
• He strikes the best balance he can between quality and the customer's budget but won't settle for a half baked job in the process

The restoration on my car went way over my initial budget in spite of receiving one of the most detailed estimates you could imagine (it went on for several pages). The reason was rust: my car ended up having a lot more rust than ever dreamed of plus poor repairs made by a PO - all hidden by bondo and paint. A glance through the restoration thread on my car will bring that to light.

I too had to make a very tough decision half way through: soldier on or abandon the project. I ended up going forward and in the process spent several times what you have listed as expenses to date plus money yet to be spent. I'm telling you this so you know that I "feel your pain" and have been there. All that said, I would do it all over again without question. My advice is to get your car completed and enjoy it every single day it isn't raining outside. Put as many miles on it as you can. Each day that you do, is another day that you get a return on your investment through satisfaction of driving a unique car. You'll be so happy you won't care about the expense - trust me on this!

Matt

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by newman27 The restoration on my car went way over my initial budget in spite of receiving one of the most detailed estimates you could imagine (it went on for several pages). The reason was rust: my car ended up having a lot more rust than ever dreamed of plus poor repairs made by a PO - all hidden by bondo and paint.

Matt, you bring up a very good point. Often the rust is so well hidden, you don't uncover it until you're already well into the project. You can't leave it alone, it'll ruin the entire job. But you can't not charge for it, you'll lose your shirt and put yourself out of business.

A friend of mine is in the restoration business, and last year did a car which ended up being almost triple the cost first quoted ($70,000 quoted ended up being just under $200k). Not his fault, as he peeled back the layers it turned out everything was junk. But at first glance it looked like a cosmetic restoration. And mechanically everything was a wreck. But without disasembling the car you have no way of really knowing up front. I personally spent about 80 hours making repair panels (he charges $95 per hour), and they spent almost 200 hours making an entirely new wood framework for the body (it's a 1927 Buick) due to termite damage. You live and learn. The owner wasn't thrilled at two things: First, when he bought the car he thought it was better than it really was. And second, at the halfway point if he had quit, he'd have had a $95,000 car that was only half finished, and worth nothing. So he gritted his teeth and had the car finished, and my boss cut him as many breaks as possible without losing his shirt.

[opelspyder]

I understand the cost, and have been evaluating several routes to go. I can chat with you later on that. On the doors the rust isn't a big deal, so we will work with what I have. I can cut a few corners and to eliminate extra costs...we don't have to over-cherry the project. We would need to talk about the headliner and such. It isn't a big deal-I think I can save us some money somewhere. I guess I am just going to have to work cheaper
Keith

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Matt, you bring up a very good point. Often the rust is so well hidden, you don't uncover it until you're already well into the project. You can't leave it alone, it'll ruin the entire job. But you can't not charge for it, you'll lose your shirt and put yourself out of business.

This is why we have step 1 in our methods. I have seen cars come in the shop looking fairly straight and just to find out it is mostly bondo and fiberglass. At this point the customer has the chance to consider and evaluate if it is worth it.

I have seen cars that come in, get strip down and blasted just to get put back together and leave. That is why we work with classic car dealers and have not worked directly with the public for years.

[Bill Hoffmann]

Dave,

Spending the initial $3,500 on an old Opel would cause most reasonable people to question your sanity, but then we're not reasonable, are we? In for a penny, in for a pound I say. But let's see it when it's done...

Bill

[David McCollam]

Keith,

I guess my question is, to repair the rust on a door is cheaper than to take a repaired door that is in primer and finished? The shipping would be about $35 per door. Just curious about the repair needed if it is less expensive to repair than replace with a prepared piece.

If it is less expensive to repair then I will get busy selling all of these primered and ready to install pieces of Manta sheet metal I have.

Anyone need a hood, trunk lid, doors, passenger fender, complete NOS tail panel-sanded, primed and ready to install? Give me a shout, Keith needs my money.

Thanks,

David

[Killer Texas GT]

I am currently working on a clients GT cutting out the typical rust areas in the fenders and it started out as a cosmetic estimate and quote. As Bob said there are hidden factors you don't see till after the work has begun. My original quote was for $2500 repair some panel rust and paint. Along with the quote it was under the conditions that I would work on it in my spare time thus not having to put a lot of constant labor into it. Well come to find out that both rocker panels had to be replace front to rear, floor pan drivers side replaced, both front fenders, kick panel area on the drivers side along with the door post, and lover sections on front and rear of the rear fenders needed panel patching and one section of the inner fender replaced. I went back to the client showed him pictures of the hidden rust and added another $1000 to the work. And this will include all the prep for a paint job also.
Since this is a project that was agreed upon to be done at my leisure or in my spare time, I will not make any money on the deal but I won't lose any either. The client is out the use of his GT during this period which is going on 2 years now) but I have not and will not cut any corners to half do the job I promised to do and have documented each step of the repair/restoration. Granted I could have doubled my $3500 quote and would have if it had not been agreed upon up front that I would work at my pace when I had time. The client has been patient and understanding and satisfied with the work done, I have only invoiced for the work completed for approximately $2000 and have $1500 to bill out for completion. However I can not give the client a completion date only that I am working on it every chance I find. I would like to think in the next 3 months it will be back in the clients hands, so that I can get started on my personal 5 OPEL projects that have not been worked on since I started this project.
I guess it is in how one sets the agreement, time restraints and scope of the work. For the price of $3500 the client will have a solid rust free GT with a new paint job, with a warranty on the work done, and I will have broken even on labor and materials and also learned a few more things about the GT body and how it is put together. That, in itself, is priceless and I'll gain more experience and practice with my amateur skills in body work.

[newman27]

This thread has reminded me of my first visit to a restoration shop here in Atlanta before I had made contact with Keith. They refused to give me any commitment on cost or time. They just said: "It'll likely take 2 - 3 years. We'll keep billing you each time your account runs out of money. If you don't send any money, we'll put your car in the corner and work on another car until you replenish your account."

Crazy way to do business but they had a warehouse bursting at the seams with cars in various states of restoration.

Matt

[Aardvaark]

David's tuff decision to make is a real eye opener for me. After reading all the comments from you guys who do restoration work, it really drives home
the advise about buying cars already restored or in excellent original shape.

Following that advise still won't stop many of us from spending way more on our pride and joys then we ever hope to get back at sale time. It hasn't stopped me.

[DennisGardiner]

After reading the thread,... all I can suggest is to 'perhaps' delay the completion of the project a few months.
Save a few more dollars for the project,
sell off some excess parts on ebay, (on this site to the group)
perhaps even sell some other non-Opel items on Craig's List, ebay etc.
dump that money into the 'car project kitty', then finish the project as planned,
the way you wanted it done, with the excellence you want and intended,
and then drive and enjoy your Manta.

Heck, I've been working on my 73 Manta for 10 years now and have invested over $10K & have not even gotten to the point of paint. I build as I have cash.
That's why it's taking me so long.

[blancojp]

Originally Posted by newman27 This thread has reminded me of my first visit to a restoration shop here in Atlanta before I had made contact with Keith. They refused to give me any commitment on cost or time. They just said: "It'll likely take 2 - 3 years. We'll keep billing you each time your account runs out of money. If you don't send any money, we'll put your car in the corner and work on another car until you replenish your account." Crazy way to do business but they had a warehouse bursting at the seams with cars in various states of restoration. Matt

I have two cars in the shop since we opened our doors here in Ga 18 months ago, a 1969 RS Camaro and a 1966 Chevelle SS 396. The owners said they were in no hurry and wanted work done only when they had the money to spend. Every month or so, they show up and add money to the folder and specify the area for the work to be applied. I do charge them $150 per month each for storage but they always show up and pay their way. We use this a fill work when we are waiting on parts and so on. There was a third car in the group, a 1972 GTO Judge but the owner did not return. So after 3 months of calling and getting promisses, we took ownership of the car. I sold that car to a dealer in Wiscounsin and he in turn sold it to a customer in Seattle for $67,500 three days after he got it.

On the average, we take 6-8 months to fully restore a car. We have regular meetings with the customer to review the progress and plan for the next step. We complete one car a month and normally have 6-8 cars in different stages of the process. Every single car in my shop has a written estimate which is given after we tear down and media blast. From 1988 when I started to this day, I have maintained a solid profit margin and never lost money on a single vehicle.