sway bar

[flipper]

just installed a front sway bar from OGTS, HOLY COW!!! what a difference! In conjunction with the 1 inch lower spring, this car handles awsome! I have had this car since 91 and always just thought it was a cool old car, now it handles like a little sports car! if you havnt done this upgrade yet, do it soon. Its amazing. cant wait to put the rear one on and see what a difference it makes.

[flipper]

just showin off " lil"bastard"

[namba209]

Very Nice. Really looks goods.

Ron

[jimsky]

Sway bars were one of the first bolt on upgrades I did. I too was very happy with the results. I was going on and off cloverleaf highway ramps just for the fun of it. For me the front bar was the dramatic difference, when I put the rear bar on it just wasn't the night and day change like the front bar was. Upgrading the shocks made another noticable difference, but the next "biggie" for me was when I changed the rims and put Sumitomo HTR4 205/60R13's all around. Yikes, do I have traction now compared to the stock tires. Yes, these meager horsepower cars can be fun to drive with some simple upgrades.

[opeldean]

car looks awesome..

how long did it take to put on the front sway bar?

what steps did you take to install it?so I know what I am getting in to.

[Old Hippie]

flipper, that is a bee-U-TEA-ful gloss paint job on that lil' sweetie!

[airbob01]

If anyone is interested, There is a Web special on Addco sway bars for the front of our Opel GT.

Here is the link www.swaybars.com/specials/specials.asp

Bob

[oldopelguy]

I just got off the phone with a lovely woman named Shelly at the above web site and there is good news and bad news. The good news is that they have quite a few of the front sway bars, at $99 each + shipping. The bad news is that the rest of their Opel sway bars, Manta, Kadett, and GT, front and rear, are going on the "special order only" list @ the 20th of this month. That means instead of their normal $135 price, they will be closer to $250!

So, if you think you might sometime want a set of sway bars, buying both now for $235 will be cheaper than buying one after the first of the year. Time to get out the wallets, and hurry!

[bosco]

yes......how difficult was the front bar to put on? and .....what if i only put on a front sway bar (no rear).......would this adversely affect anything?

Is addco the rear sway bar that can be used if there are no mounts on the axle????

[Travis]

Originally posted by bosco what if i only put on a front sway bar (no rear).......would this adversely affect anything?

Understeer, understeer and more understeer....

-Travis

[calvin]

On the manta the sway bar was fairly easy. Got held loosely into place and then just jacked it into place.

here is another look at a rear set up onthe manta.

one behind the rear axel, one above and this one in the pic in front of the axel.

[calvin]

same thing from the side

[jimsky]

How difficult was the front bar to put on?
***Pretty easy, find the right spots, drill a few holes, mount bar. Look at the photos in my photo album:

http://www.opelgt.com/photos/showgal...=12917&stype=0

You do have to have the car in a "neutral position" like up on ramps to properly install the bar. I put the front of the car on ramps, and jacked the rear up with a floor jack until the car was level.***

What if i only put on a front sway bar (no rear).......would this adversely affect anything?
***I put the front bar on and a few weeks later put the rear bar on. I think it handled a whole lot better with just the front bar than no sway bars at all. The car will not track off the road, crash & burn, explode or anything else dramatic with only the front bar, it's just not the ideal setup.**

Is addco the rear sway bar that can be used if there are no mounts on the axle????
***Yes.***

[opeldean]

i am reading a conflict in my thoughts between jimsky and travis:

Jimsky said to paraphrase " addco front sway bar made the biggest difference..handling was much improved with only this addition..when he added the back sway bar" better than stock but NOT like the improvement made by the front addition

travis said" more understeer" with the front bar

fliper used the 1in ogts bar on stock mounts...I know the addco is thinner diameter(less stiff) and I think it does not mount at stock location like the OGTS

Problem:can someone claify this...Travis ..you imply handling is worse with only the front bar..is this your intent?

thanks..I am hoping the " the ball and chain will put this in the christmas stocking for me..I want the right one"

[Travis]

Originally posted by bucky travis said" more understeer" with the front bar

In stock form the GT understeers. Adding a front bar will make it understeer even more. Any book on car handling will confirm this.

The question then becomes why people are feeling that their cars handle better after adding the front bar. My only guess, and it's just a guess, is that the reduced body roll is giving this perception.

Just my 2 cents

-Travis

[Old Hippie]

Yes, please. Let's get you two together and let us know. I think I would like to do all the simple mods before I do the paint work in the spring.
Please?!

[jimsky]

Yes, the front bar dramatically reduced the body roll. Prior to the front bar being installed the excessive body roll quickly ate up my speed comfort level in sweeping cloverleaf exits.

Once the front bar was installed the car stayed much more "squat" in turns. I was able to take the same cloverleaf exits at high speeds with more confidence (be it if only perceived). If the car understeered more, I compensated for it without knowing. I never felt I couldn't make the arc of the turn, never drifted off on the shoulder or felt like I took the turn too hot. I usually took the exit speed to the point of breaking my meager stock-ish tires loose. When the squealing got real loud and the drifting got too wild I'd back off a bit. I never got to do that before the front bar.

The rear bar was added a few weeks after so I only had limited exposure to "front bar only driving".

Below are some cute definations:

"Understeer", also known as "push", and "dammit, why won't the car turn?", happens when a vehicle doesn't turn as quickly as the angle of the front wheels would suggest. Turning the steering wheel further just makes the tires slip more. An understeering vehicle wants to point to the outside of a turn, plowing ahead instead of where the wheels are aimed.

"Oversteer", AKA "loose", or "OH S*&T!", is when the vehicle wants to turn too far, with the back end sliding around and, in extreme cases, trying to pass the front. An oversteering vehicle feels like it's about to spin, and frequently does if the driver isn't skilled enough to "catch" it.

An easy way to remember the difference is that Understeer is when you see what you're about to hit through the windshield, but Oversteer means you see it in the mirrors...

A little theory:

There are a lot of different dynamics that cause under- or oversteer; the front-to-rear weight bias of the car, the presence or absence of anti-sway bar(s), which wheels are doing the work of accelerating the car, and even the size and type of tires.

Most cars come from the factory with a bias towards understeer. That's because it's generally thought that understeer is easier for the average driver to cope with than oversteer, which is probably true. The instinctual reaction for a driver in a sliding car is to lift off the throttle and hit the brakes, which will transfer weight to the front end and increase traction there, helping an understeering car to recover control. Doing the same thing in a car that's oversteering will usually make the situation worse by unloading the rear tires and further reducing their traction.

For this reason, you'll almost never see a factory-stock car with a rear anti-roll bar, but no bar on the front. Without getting into a lot of advanced car dynamics, I'll just say that putting a "swaybar" or anti-roll bar on one end of the car (or replacing an existing one with a stiffer bar) will tend to give the opposite end of the car more traction. Thus, most cars come equipped with a front bar but none in the rear, or if they have both, the front bar will be considerably stiffer. This preserves the tendency to "safely" understeer once the limits of handling are reached.

[N61WP]

First, let me say that I have never driven a stock GT, so I don't know how bad they really handle. But from what I have read, with the skinny stock 13" tires, I'm sure they do understeer really badly.

When I bought my GT, I had to rebuild the suspension before I ever drove it. I changed to a stiffer, lower front spring and high pressure KYB gas shocks. I added an ADDCO front bar, no rear bar (yet). The car handles very neutral, and has no body roll, probably due to the stiffness of the gas shocks. While autoXing, I have had it push if I was exiting a corner down on RPMs, but then again I have had it become tail happy and spin if I was being overly heavy footed.

So, why do I think I have been able to get away with just the front bar?.....The sticky 205-50-15 Falken Azenis tires I have on it. I'm sure they make all the difference.

My 2Cs

James

[Old Hippie]

Thank you, jimsky! You is one smart..opeler! Front sway bar it is, then. With a good set of tires, my stocker will be "sweet" (as they say). I don't plan on any high speed stuff. Well, maybe I'd want to act like a teenager again!

[flipper]

Hmmmmmm, funny this conversation comes up. I just had 3 sway bar experiences in the past two months that cover all three of the sway bar issues.

1. I purchased the front and rear swaybar AND intermediate (1inch) front spring from ogts. yes the front swaybar is MASSIVE, 22mm i think. I put the front spring and sway bar on at the same time and left the rear off. The car handles better than most autocross and itb cars i have been in. If its has MORE understeer now, then give me more.

2. I installed the rear sway bar and all it seems to do is help the outside tire not load up as much.
3. unhooked front sway bar to work on oilpan, drove car without front and just rear, .....yukky.

I think that since most of the weight is in the front end, then that is where most of the roll takes place (inertia). the backend has a lot of roll to it without the front swaybar, but the 22mm front swaybar seems big enough that it doesnt let the front dive, and therfore the back does not dive as much either, unless you have a lot of chassis flex. my advise, for what it is worth. the front swaybar is a priority, if you can only get one, the front. If two awsome. I also think the larger bar is worth it. I think both my bars cost 240.00 (set). they had all the mounting hardware and the clear instructions (wich i needed)
sorry so long, but hopefully since i have recently tried all three ways, it might help.

[jimsky]

One point of clarification, one comment.

CLARIFICATION
I did not write the "definations" and the text that followed; I pulled it off a Yahoo search on "oversteer". I thought that would be apparent in the posting, but the way it's written it may not be. I don't want to take credit for something I didn't write.

COMMENT
I did install high pressure KYB gas shocks (front and back) one week after the front bar was installed. As James stated maybe these stiff shocks might come into play here.

[flipper]

Maybe I should add the rest of my suspention info also. I installed all new red bushings and new ball joints about two months before the sway bars. those made it feel alot better driving, but still had a ton of roll. the rear springs are stock, and the shocks are cheap gr2's i think(26 bucks at tire rack) dont get the tire rack shocks because the rear ones they sell you are to short in the threaded area and i had to use my old squished grommets. anyway, you now know what all i have done to the susp.

[oldopelguy]

My favorite definition of the 2:

Understeer- makes the driver scared the car won't stay on the road
Oversteer- makes the passenger scared the car won't stay on the road

FWIW the Manta only has the one sway bar, and a beefy one at that. If you can only afford one, go for the front one, especially at $99+ $15 or so for shipping. If you can afford the additional $135, though, spend it now before the price shoots up. The above referenced site was passing on the cost's from Addco, so everyone who sells them is going to raise the price accordingly SOON, even OGTS.

For a somewhat cheaper option, I think the Addco front 3/4" bar above will compliment a stock rear sway bar pretty well. Tough call, though, as OGTS wants $60 for the brackets to mount a stock bar, and then you still have to get it welded on and such. The bolt on brackets for the Addco sway bar are pretty easy to install at home....

[Paul]

The question that keeps popping up, is: Why does the installation of only the front sway bar help corning and not cause understeer. The answer lies in the analysis of the short comings of the front suspension.

Apparently, the front suspension is so poor on a stock GT that it looses grip in the front due to less (insufficient) camber gain built in to the suspension than is lost due to body roll. Meaning, in a corner the front tire tilts outward, positive camber, which seriously reduces traction. Adding only the front bar reduces body roll so that the tire stays flatter in the corner, less positive camber, greatly improving traction, thus reducing the understeering effects of a "front bar only" situation.

This was so typical of so may of the cars that were designed in the 70's.

BTW, Miata autocross drivers UNHOOK their rear sway bars. Seems counter productive... but it helps the inside rear tire stay in contact with pavement improving traction more than the losses of no sway bar. And yes the effects of stiffer shocks (usually rebound rates) will reduce body roll as well.

Remember, sway bars (anti-roll) are bandaids of sorts. They are crossfunctional devices that can be used to help tune a suspension that is a compromise between ride comfort and handling.

Oldopelguy: are you saying that Manta only has one sway bar? or that they sell only one bar for the Manta?

Hope I described this correctly
Paul

[bosco]

I think I'm going to go with just the front swaybar. Do these things make the car ride rougher?