Lift-Throttle Oversteer, rear sway bar, Front spring shackle

[JGard18]

Just wondering...

Does adding a rear sway car only, greatly increase the lift throttle oversteer? This was a serious issue on my Impreza, when upgrading the rear bar, it seemed like any lifting of the throttle would violently swing the rear around.

I'm wondering if it's drastic on the GT or not. From what I can tell, stock, it's a quite neutral car... I wouldn't mind adding a little bit of oversteer (once the winter is gone, of course)

[RallyBob]

Adding a rear bar only will increase oversteer in the GT, both static and lift-throttle. If you lower the car, the effect is compounded because of the rear trailing arm geometry.

In stock form, the GT is a dedicated understeerer....as bad or worse than most front-drive cars. Sure, oversteer can be induced if you try hard enough, but generally the car pushes like a pig when the car is driven hard through the twisties. The biggest flaw here is the bind of the front spring...it effectively creates an infinite front spring rate. This is why the shackles work so well to make the car more neutral.

[JGard18]

pardon my ignorance...(I don't know much about leaf spring designs and all), but what are shackles?

[RallyBob]

Just a way of simultaneously lowering the front end of a GT, and eliminating the bind in the front spring that causes a rough ride and crappy handling. It also is the reason the GT front suspension bushings wear so badly, the binding puts all the load into the bushings, and then they deflect to allow suspension movement. This link has a photo of a set of shackles I designed for a GT, installed on Wayne Torman's GT. Someone has posted the drawing somewhere.....don't recall offhand where though.

http://www.opelgt.com/forums/showthr...hlight=shackle

Bob

[kevinfier]

the tech tip on shackles can be found on the OANA website under technical info
http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...h/shackles.pdf
I plan to make a set for my new '70 Kadett Sport Sedan.
Kevin
75 Manta 2.0
73 Manta
70 Kadett

[kwilford]

Here's a set that Todd Benson machined out a solid piece of steel, just welded at the cross piece.

[RallyBob]

Originally posted by kwilford Here's a set that Todd Benson machined out a solid piece of steel, just welded at the cross piece.

An important note here: I noticed in your photo that Todd did not add the radius at the 'stepped' area as I had drawn it. Not doing so is an important issue. As the front suspension compresses, and the spring elongates as it is supposed to do, the shackles travel outward in an arc. This design, as shown, will strike the lower a-arm when these shackles swing outward, and probably crack it! You have been warned!! I don't want to see someone get hurt, or their car damaged, so please understand I designed the shackles the way I did for a reason. If you alter the design, you do so at your own risk!

[kwilford]

Good point, Bob. I hadn't noticed that problem in Todd's shackle. I suppose he could get the radii machined in to allow the shackle to "swivel". I also wondered about the square shoulder in the lower mount, as it might interfere with the spring-eye bushing.

Have you tried this design with a bit less drop? I am considering getting a set made up, but the 2 inch drop seems a bit radical, especially without lowering the rear suspension, which comes with it's own gremlins. Would this work with less drop, say even 1 1/2 inch, or preferably 1 inch? Although I suppose that you need to lower the spring-eye bolt enough to clear the bottom of the A-arm.

[RallyBob]

Originally posted by kwilford Would this work with less drop, say even 1 1/2 inch, or preferably 1 inch? Although I suppose that you need to lower the spring-eye bolt enough to clear the bottom of the A-arm.

Bingo, that's the issue. Check out the photo on Wayne's GT, you can see how close it is already. Any higher and it hits the a-arm. Although you could circumvent this by having another leaf added to the front spring by a spring shop to raise it up, then installing the shackles anyway. Roundabout for sure, but it would work.

Bob

[saxybiker]

I remember seeing the drawings for Bob's shackles once, possibly with a supporting tech article. I can't seem to locate it. Does anyone know where I can find it? I have my 72 GT front suspension apart and this is the perfect time to do shackles.



Moderators note:
Right Here (second article from the top): (and earlier in this thread!)

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...h/shackles.pdf

[JGard18]

does any vendor produce these things for sale? Or would this be something I'd need to find the designs for, and bring it to a machine shop?

Just curious. I would like to greatly improve the handling of the GT. I know it's capable...but just not quite there yet.

ps. Ok, I think I've gathered exactly what the shackle is and does. Effectively allows the pivot point of the spring/control arm/wheel hub to move in and out, as opposed to just up and down. Gotcha!

And yeah, would this be a better alternative to just new springs? It sounds it. (as a side note, I was thinking of getting those Koni adjustables from OGTS, if that's a bad idea, let me know )

[kwilford]

OK, Bob, I see why the shackle has to be a two inch drop, since the lower spring-eye bolt has to clear the A-arm. I don't really want to lower my GT (at least not yet), and in any event, I am not fussy having a shackle hanging down another two inches below the A-arm, looking for all kinds of objects to hit. But I REALLY see the problem with the spring "binding", especially now that I assembled my front suspension this evening. I installed Polyurethane bushings all around, including the spring eye bushing. Even with the proper leaf spring compressor I built, I had quite a time getting the spring-eye bushing to line up to allow the bolt to be inserted. The leaf length and the A-arm spacing wouldn't quite equal each other. I finally had to loosen the A-arm perches, fit the spring-eye bolts, and then tighten the perch bolts. Which instantly caused the bushings to deflect. But I wondered if there was another solution.

Could I build a leaf spring "slider" such as I've posted below (it's a rear leaf spring from "Beyond's" Nova, http://iola.com/71nova/ . He's the fellow who built that really nice red GT for his daughter and posted the photos)? It wouldn't have to be so elaborate, just a short "slot" really, in place of where the spring-eye bolt normally goes. I noticed that when the suspension is unloaded (no weight), the leaf tries to pull the A-arm outboard, and the A-arm bushings are taking the deflection. But when I compressed the suspension to a "normal" position, the A-arm was fairly neutral. So I suspect that as the suspension loads (over a bump), that the leaf will be trying to pull the A-arm inboard.

I was thinking that it could be a slot about 3/4 inch long and the width of the bolt (8 mm) wide, perhaps reinforced with a outer plate, centered where the existing hole is. Then a teflon washer on each side of the A-arm wall, backed up by a steel washer on each side. The spring-eye bushing and inner sleeve would have to be machined a bit narrower, but there is lots of material to make room for the slide washer.

What do you think? Would 3/4 inch be enough, or even too much? It seems that the bushings only deflect at most 3/16 inch each way, so perhaps even a 1/2 inch slot would suffice. The only problem I really see is that the spring isn't "fixed", as it is in the Nova (the rear eye is fixed), so it might want to slide from side-to-side. But I doubt that it would, once it was centered. The other problem would be to ensure that the slider "slides". The Nova's slider looks like it has some kind of horizontal rail above and below the slider, which a roller washer runs in. Hopefully the loading on the GT would't require that elaborate a mechanism, but it could be done.

You know us damn Engineers, always trying to improve on things, even those that worked well enough when the first Engineer was done with it. Of course, he's long since gone by now!

[RallyBob]

Those sliding leaf-spring mounts are an off-the-shelf item. I bought some years ago, they're too big to readily adapt to a GT.
And there are two types, the 'UHMW polyethylene slider' type and the roller-bearing type. Regardless, I would not trust simple slotting the stock a-arms, even with reinforcements. Especially with an 8mm bolt.....

For my Kadett's front suspension, I cut off the eyelet from the spring entirely, and made a friction block from HDPE (High Density PolyEthylene) with a steel backer, which bolts to the underside of the a-arm. The ends of the spring ride along the HDPE block, and don't bind. BUT, I had to locate the center of the spring so it wouldn't move side-to-side. I did that by first bolting the leaves of the spring together with countersunk bolts from the top (a bitch to drill, spring steel is!). Then, I put vertical slots in the sides of the leaves at the center, and welded steel tabs into the crossmember that those slots ride on, therefore allowing vertical movement but no side-to-side movement. I have no photos of this (pre-digital era for me), but I recently got a scanner. Once I figure it out, I'll scan some old photos I took of this front suspension design.

Oddly, when I've checked for movement of the leaf spring relative to the ride height, compressing the front suspension has always resulted in the spring elongating (as it 'de-arches'), which puts the loading on the a-arms in the 'outward' plane. You can see this when you put the shackles on a GT. Lay on the ground and look at the shackles, then have someone push on the fender from above....you can see which way the shackles pivot...it's amazing how much they really do move.

Bob

[JGard18]

Bob,
Do you have a set of Shackles I could buy from you? Or do you have the dimensions spec'd out so I could have a shop make them for me? Thanks

Jim

[opelgt73]

Here is the plans to build them

http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/...h/shackles.pdf

HTH

[JGard18]

thanks!

That was the same as posted above...apparently I missed it that time. I need to wake up...

[Gary]

There is a clean copy of the shackle drawing in the Download area.

[Tru-Craft]

RallyBob, I have a GT with a stock binding front spring and rock hard spring bushings. My idea is making poly bushings with a larger ID ( 1/2 ? ). I was going to keep the stock diameter spring bolts. With the extra clearance the spring should be able to move through its arc without binding on the lower A-arm.
I like the shackle setup but don't want to lower my car.
Any imput would be appreciated.
Lyle
I own a machine shop so making bushings or shackles is no problem.

[Tru-Craft]

Was also thinking about making the front spring bushing a tight fit on the bolt and clearance fit on the OD. The bushing would then be able to move inside the spring end.
Lyle

[jeff denton]

Do the shackles. When you study how the spring works, you wonder what the Germans were thinking. The shackles take up the forces that otherwise pull on the lower A-arm bushings. It only makes sense!
Mine are a lot simpler than the Legere shackles, but same theory.

[oldopelguy]

One option I was seriously considering is a roller vice a slider or shackle. To explain, imagine the poly suspension bushing, basicly a cylinder with a pair of flanges on the ends, like a spool. If a suitable pair of "ears" were welded in hanging down from the front and back of the bottom of the lower a-arm, and the spool mounted between them, then the spring could roll across the top.

The flanges on the spool of material would have to be big enough to center the leaves front to back, the center of the spring would need to be fixed, the eyes would probably need to be cut off the ends of the springs, and what material would you use? On the other hand, if you had a few holes on each arm you could move the spool in or out to change spring rate (well sort of, longer/shorter lever?), you could use bearings to make sure it all spun freely, and your spool size and positioning could set any ride height you wanted. Hey, food for thought?

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by oldopelguy One option I was seriously considering is a roller vice a slider or shackle. To explain, imagine the poly suspension bushing, basicly a cylinder with a pair of flanges on the ends, like a spool. If a suitable pair of "ears" were welded in hanging down from the front and back of the bottom of the lower a-arm, and the spool mounted between them, then the spring could roll across the top. The flanges on the spool of material would have to be big enough to center the leaves front to back, the center of the spring would need to be fixed, the eyes would probably need to be cut off the ends of the springs, and what material would you use? On the other hand, if you had a few holes on each arm you could move the spool in or out to change spring rate (well sort of, longer/shorter lever?), you could use bearings to make sure it all spun freely, and your spool size and positioning could set any ride height you wanted. Hey, food for thought?

Stephen, I modified my Kadett front end by cutting off the eyelets and using a steel plate (bolted into lower a-arm) with a removeable 1/2" thick piece of HDPE rubbing against the ends of the spring leafs. I'll try to get out to the barn and take some pics of it, but the front end is covered with dust from sitting around for 8 years, so it's a bit filthy. Similar yet different from what you are suggesting.

[jeff denton]

Hey, I like that idea, Bob. The spacer block could be adjustable to vary crossweight and left bias.
As for drilling the center of the springs, what would be wrong with drilling the crossmember and running the centering bolt through it, too? I notice my spring leaves will "walk" to the left, have to check and adjust them occasionally or my wheel weights get weird. Need to do something about this... Had thought about glueing them together in the middle, too...

[Tru-Craft]

Jeff your right, the shackles will be the best & easiest way. I measured everything and came up with a distance of 1.82" between the shackle holes. This is the smallest drop posible with clearance. I'm going to CNC machine the side part from one piece of 1/2 x 1-1/4 x 3.09 stock. Like Bob said the radius is important for proper lower A-arm clearance.
I was thinking of using a thick wall steel tube between the side parts on the top pivot holes, then no welding is required at all.
Jeff your shackles are simpler? How are yours made???

Simpler is cheaper! If someone decides to produce shackles for sale, we should combine the best features of all designs.
Lyle

[jeff denton]

They are just simple 1/8" x 1-1/4 straps, two inners and two outers per side.
They bend a bit to fit around the spring eye. The left side shackles are longer than the right ones in my application. They attach to the A-arm with two 3/8 x 1-1/2 bolts, the holes on the A-arm are beefed up by welding hardwashers on each side. Too simple. Maybe not real durable for lots of road miles, but perfect for what I do.... There's nothing really to sell, it's just few bits of scrap and some grade 8 fasteners...
I like your idea of the hard spring eye bushings, I would then use a bigger bolt through the bottom of the shackles and spring eye. The 3/8 bolt I presently use here doesn't look like enough, especially on the right side where we compress the spring pretty hard in a left turn...