No rears, line?

jvandyke · 03-21-2007

My rear brakes aren't working at all.
No movement of cylinder. Research suggests a collapsed hose to the rears. Any one know off hand length and fittings on the hope I can have a replacement in hand when I pull the old one rather than pull, run around and then replace?
Is it possible to go to an autoparts store and say "I need a 23" brake line (or whatever) with blah blah blah on the ends" and walk out with it?

Here's where I'm at since I started a new thread.
car up on stands, all four wheels pulled, daughter in car pressing pedal, fronts seem great, rears nothing, no movment at all. Since I've had the car, pedal travels about an inch and you've got brakes right now, no more pedal travel unless you stand on it and even then just a bit and it comes right back up, I "tested" the brakes with some panic stops and she stops pretty decent but obviously I should have the rears doing something. Now every once in a while I sense some drag and have found one rear hot after stopping. Next time out, stays cool, so I assume every once in a while one at least moves bit.
I'm planning on replacing the hose portion to the rears. Then seeing what's up. Rebuilding cylinders and other things if needed.
Shoes support the theory that the right works once in a while but the driver's side has a light rust coating on them so they don't. E brake does work though, course, that's pure mechanical....

PS my car with uknown history has a line (looks like coolant line too, bad) to a vacuum canister for reserve then to brake booster. Booster doesn't seem to do anything at all, but braking action seem pretty good of course, I don't know what "good" is. I should measure vacuum, eh?

namba209 · 03-21-2007

Brake hoses have a metric fitting on them, so that may be a problem at your local auto parts store. Of course OGTS has the correct lines available and will ship out the next day, or that afternoon if called in the a.m. It does sound like a collapsed hose, though, and maybe all 3 shuld be replaced. JMTCW.

jordan · 03-21-2007

You can't go wrong with the paragon stainless steel braided brake lines with teflon core, they are a very nice line and make for an awesome pedal feel I think they were around $90 shipped (with club discount) Stainless Steel Braided PTFE Hose, Biodiesel, E85, M85 Fuel Lines, Brake Lines, Aluminum Adapters and Fittings, Silicone Hose, Teflon Hose

yellaopelgt · 03-21-2007

Yup, replace all 3 and do it right! If ones bad so are the rest(or soon to follow) I also have the Paragon SS lines and its a perfect fit....no muss no fuss... but you dont nessicarily need the SS. The rubber ones from OGTS are fine, I just think the braided are puuurty!!!

The originals are an oddball metric X somthing pitch and you would probly need an adapter (good luck) if you went to a Napa or someplace like that. Paragon made these special for us and I do believe if you mention this site you will get a small discount... BTW check that "hot" drum for heat cracks.............
HTH
Joe

hrcollinsjr · 03-21-2007

Any auto parts store that sells Beck Arnley parts can get the brake hoses. The won't have a listing for the rear, just use the same # as the front hoses. The fronts are slightly longer so they work fine, OGTS has been substituting this hose for years. If you're already getting up an order from OGTS go ahead and add these to your list as they are competitive in prices.

Harold

wrangler · 03-21-2007

I went to Autozone and they could get them the next day from another store, and O'Reilly's had them in stock. If I recall correctly, they only sold them in pairs, and as previously stated, you should replace all 3.

hrcollinsjr · 03-21-2007

Originally Posted by wrangler

I went to Autozone and they could get them the next day from another store, and O'Reilly's had them in stock. If I recall correctly, they only sold them in pairs, and as previously stated, you should replace all 3.

Buy three pairs then and replace them all on two of your Opels and the others can wait.

Beck Arnley's are packaged individually. P/N 073-1193

Harold

soybean · 03-21-2007

Originally Posted by jvandyke

My rear brakes aren't working at all.
No movement of cylinder. Research suggests a collapsed hose to the rears. Any one know off hand length and fittings on the hope I can have a replacement in hand when I pull the old one rather than pull, run around and then replace?
Is it possible to go to an autoparts store and say "I need a 23" brake line (or whatever) with blah blah blah on the ends" and walk out with it?

As the others have said OGTS is competive in price and Beck Arnley's are packaged individually. I have the Paragon SS lines as I am running WilWood brakes on the front and the fittings are different.
I plan to run all new brake lines on the "Red" Gt, but I picked up a package of metric fittings on Ebay the other month for the ends. The brake lines are "Double flared" and a regular flare fitting won't work. You have to have the adapter for your flare tool, to double flare them when you make up new steel lines. Hth, Jarrell

jvandyke · 03-21-2007

Great, I'll start hunting. The fronts "look" newer. The rear (and we're talking just the rubber hose along the drive shaft, right?) I'll replace all three and bleed everything out but I'm planning having to redo the cylinders since they haven't been doing anything in who knows how long.
I take it Autozone can get the Beck Arnley parts eh?

bit later: found one a brake shop can have for me in an hour, just one though so I'll do the back while the car's in the air, $19

PS 10mm flare nut wrench is the "right" tool for the job as I read, I'll see if one of those can be had easily too.....

markandson · 03-21-2007

I guess I am lazy, I just call OGTS, tell them what I want, and wait a few days.
I wind up with the right stuff every time, no hassle.

soybean · 03-21-2007

Remember to bleed them as per the FSM. Farthest away, then the front. Right rear, Left Rear. Right front, left front. Hth, Jarrell

jvandyke · 03-21-2007

Originally Posted by markandson

I guess I am lazy, I just call OGTS, tell them what I want, and wait a few days.
I wind up with the right stuff every time, no hassle.

I wish I had the patience to do it that way. I'm like a little kid, if I can't play with my toy I get cranky. Downtime is evil. Once I've got it in good running condition I can relax, plan out my next move and order up a slew of OTGS stuff. Those guys are great, they have answered my questions and I still haven't ordered anything from them, but I will.

jvandyke · 03-22-2007

I got the new line. Had to work til 10 pm so I didn't do much. Managed to get one end of old line off, other is being stubborn and I'm starting to round it so I soaked in Liquid Wrench and I'll try tomorrow, hit it with a heat gun too but got nervous when something under there started smoking.
While it was like this I had my daughter "pump" the brake (I use quotes because you don't really pump this pedal, you push it til it stops, let go repeat, there is so little actual pedal travel) Engine wasn't running so no boost assist but that doesn't seem to do much anyway.
I get a little trickle out of the line when she pushes (yeah, I know insert joke here

Seems like it should have more volume (yeah yeah, funny ha ah, another joke, grow up will ya?). So, where to look next? MC? But front's seem happy. Could be line still but it has writing on it that doesn't look OE I don't remember what it says, thought it'd show in pics but doesn't.
hmmmmm
brakeline

(ps some bonus shots of my exhaust, is this all custom work?)

hrcollinsjr · 03-22-2007

By the picture and your description I'm guessing your checking the fluid flow through the rubber hose still. The hose is more than likely the problem. Once you get it loose you should have good volume from the metal line otherwise you do have a problem.

Are or were you using a flare wrench to remove the brake fittings. By your description it sounds too late now anyway. If you don't know what one is, it's a special open end wrench that looks like it started out as a box end with a small section cut out so it grips all corners on the hex fitting.

Harold

jvandyke · 03-22-2007

I did find out what a flare wrench is from this site but the shop didn't have one. I don't think it's too late yet for the nut, I started to round one set of corners and quit until I have more confidence I'm even barking up the right tree, the correct wrench, and more time. This hose seems newer by the printing on it, there was a brand name "Jorx", (it's a wild guess), then some numbers. I'm still going to try and replace it but I'm a bit less confident that's where my problem lies, just because it looks newer.

It's been a while since I've messed with brakes. Am I correct in remembering a pretty decent squirt of fluid from the hose when things are 'normal", much more then a weak trickle (as I have now) as i recall.

yellaopelgt · 03-22-2007

I would take out the "pin" or whatever that thing is called that holds the brake hose to the body mount. Cut the rubber brake line,and pull it out of there. It will give you more leverage and you wont bend the mount when the assembley is freed up. And....you will get a better angle on the fitting when you heat it up so you dont start melting the carpeting inside the car! Mine was so rusted that I ended up cutting the metal line, flaring it, and putting a new fitting on the end.

HTH
BTW the looks of the lines can be decieving.... its the inside that collapses and creates a one-way valve of sorts. And you will see a huge difference of the amount of fluid when you get it off....trust me on this one!!
Joe

jvandyke · 03-22-2007

Okay, I'll stay on the line so to speak. I hope you put the fitting on before you flared it. Been there, done that

The line will go, one way or the other. The connection looks like crap though, the fittings look rust welded together. How hard is it to come by a 10mm flare nut fitting? I wonder if my old flaring tool would flare something this small decently, don't recall trying anything so tiny.

BobCGT · 03-22-2007

The tubing is probably 3/16" diameter with double flared ends

namba209 · 03-22-2007

When I replaced the brake system on Willit?, all the fittings were badly rusted together. Over the years I ended up with 5 pairs of vice-grips and had to use two of them to break the lines loose. One on the flare nut, the other on the hose fitting, using a scissors motion, I was lucky they came apart fairly easy. Of course I didn't care if I trashed them, they were gonna be replaced anyway. If you do trash the line at the fitting, a standard 45 degree double flare will work nicely, it is the standard for the automotive industry world wide. For the aircraft industry the standard flare is 37 degrees, so care must be used when going to AN or MS flare fittings, sometimes they'll work, sometimes you can't stop the leaks. The reason brake fitting usually get badly corroded, brake fluid is a sponge to water, so any seepage at the fittings accelerates the corrosion process. HTH.

Mike Preble · 03-22-2007

NAPA has always had those nuts for my car. They will even carry unbent tubing with flare nuts already attached. Just take the old nut in to make sure you get the right one as it is metric and not SAE.

Mike

jvandyke · 03-22-2007

Just came from NAPA, I don't have a double flare tool so I opted to buy what I hope is a decent enough 10mm flare nut wrench, one choice, set of three metric "Everlast" brand, it's all they had. I got a can of PB Blaster and it's soaking now. If I destroy it I'll either buy the flare tool and a nut or a generic line and bend it up myself. Either way I win because I'm learning something new at every turn. Aren't we having fun? I am.
Or maybe AutoZone loans out double flare tools.

03-21-2007	#1 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Unanswered: No rears, line? My rear brakes aren't working at all. No movement of cylinder. Research suggests a collapsed hose to the rears. Any one know off hand length and fittings on the hope I can have a replacement in hand when I pull the old one rather than pull, run around and then replace? Is it possible to go to an autoparts store and say "I need a 23" brake line (or whatever) with blah blah blah on the ends" and walk out with it? Here's where I'm at since I started a new thread. car up on stands, all four wheels pulled, daughter in car pressing pedal, fronts seem great, rears nothing, no movment at all. Since I've had the car, pedal travels about an inch and you've got brakes right now, no more pedal travel unless you stand on it and even then just a bit and it comes right back up, I "tested" the brakes with some panic stops and she stops pretty decent but obviously I should have the rears doing something. Now every once in a while I sense some drag and have found one rear hot after stopping. Next time out, stays cool, so I assume every once in a while one at least moves bit. I'm planning on replacing the hose portion to the rears. Then seeing what's up. Rebuilding cylinders and other things if needed. Shoes support the theory that the right works once in a while but the driver's side has a light rust coating on them so they don't. E brake does work though, course, that's pure mechanical.... PS my car with uknown history has a line (looks like coolant line too, bad) to a vacuum canister for reserve then to brake booster. Booster doesn't seem to do anything at all, but braking action seem pretty good of course, I don't know what "good" is. I should measure vacuum, eh?

03-21-2007	#4 (permalink)
yellaopelgt No....its not a Buick.... Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 961 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Yup, replace all 3 and do it right! If ones bad so are the rest(or soon to follow) I also have the Paragon SS lines and its a perfect fit....no muss no fuss... but you dont nessicarily need the SS. The rubber ones from OGTS are fine, I just think the braided are puuurty!!! The originals are an oddball metric X somthing pitch and you would probly need an adapter (good luck) if you went to a Napa or someplace like that. Paragon made these special for us and I do believe if you mention this site you will get a small discount... BTW check that "hot" drum for heat cracks............. HTH Joe Last edited by yellaopelgt; 03-21-2007 at 02:16 AM..

03-21-2007	#9 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Great, I'll start hunting. The fronts "look" newer. The rear (and we're talking just the rubber hose along the drive shaft, right?) I'll replace all three and bleed everything out but I'm planning having to redo the cylinders since they haven't been doing anything in who knows how long. I take it Autozone can get the Beck Arnley parts eh? bit later: found one a brake shop can have for me in an hour, just one though so I'll do the back while the car's in the air, $19 PS 10mm flare nut wrench is the "right" tool for the job as I read, I'll see if one of those can be had easily too..... Last edited by jvandyke; 03-21-2007 at 10:40 AM..

03-22-2007	#13 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	maybe not I got the new line. Had to work til 10 pm so I didn't do much. Managed to get one end of old line off, other is being stubborn and I'm starting to round it so I soaked in Liquid Wrench and I'll try tomorrow, hit it with a heat gun too but got nervous when something under there started smoking. While it was like this I had my daughter "pump" the brake (I use quotes because you don't really pump this pedal, you push it til it stops, let go repeat, there is so little actual pedal travel) Engine wasn't running so no boost assist but that doesn't seem to do much anyway. I get a little trickle out of the line when she pushes (yeah, I know insert joke here Seems like it should have more volume (yeah yeah, funny ha ah, another joke, grow up will ya?). So, where to look next? MC? But front's seem happy. Could be line still but it has writing on it that doesn't look OE I don't remember what it says, thought it'd show in pics but doesn't. hmmmmm brakeline (ps some bonus shots of my exhaust, is this all custom work?)

03-21-2007	#2 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	Brake hoses have a metric fitting on them, so that may be a problem at your local auto parts store. Of course OGTS has the correct lines available and will ship out the next day, or that afternoon if called in the a.m. It does sound like a collapsed hose, though, and maybe all 3 shuld be replaced. JMTCW.

03-21-2007	#3 (permalink)
jordan Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: corning ny 14830 Posts: 2,123 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	You can't go wrong with the paragon stainless steel braided brake lines with teflon core, they are a very nice line and make for an awesome pedal feel I think they were around $90 shipped (with club discount) Stainless Steel Braided PTFE Hose, Biodiesel, E85, M85 Fuel Lines, Brake Lines, Aluminum Adapters and Fittings, Silicone Hose, Teflon Hose

03-21-2007	#5 (permalink)
hrcollinsjr 1000 Post Club Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chapel Hill, TN Posts: 1,606 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	Any auto parts store that sells Beck Arnley parts can get the brake hoses. The won't have a listing for the rear, just use the same # as the front hoses. The fronts are slightly longer so they work fine, OGTS has been substituting this hose for years. If you're already getting up an order from OGTS go ahead and add these to your list as they are competitive in prices. Harold

03-21-2007	#6 (permalink)
wrangler Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Pensacola, Florida Posts: 464 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I went to Autozone and they could get them the next day from another store, and O'Reilly's had them in stock. If I recall correctly, they only sold them in pairs, and as previously stated, you should replace all 3.

03-21-2007	#10 (permalink)
markandson Senior Contributor Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kent Lakes, NY Posts: 1,551 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 2	I guess I am lazy, I just call OGTS, tell them what I want, and wait a few days. I wind up with the right stuff every time, no hassle.

03-21-2007	#11 (permalink)
soybean Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Reidsville N.C. Posts: 2,160 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Remember to bleed them as per the FSM. Farthest away, then the front. Right rear, Left Rear. Right front, left front. Hth, Jarrell

03-22-2007	#14 (permalink)
hrcollinsjr 1000 Post Club Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chapel Hill, TN Posts: 1,606 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	By the picture and your description I'm guessing your checking the fluid flow through the rubber hose still. The hose is more than likely the problem. Once you get it loose you should have good volume from the metal line otherwise you do have a problem. Are or were you using a flare wrench to remove the brake fittings. By your description it sounds too late now anyway. If you don't know what one is, it's a special open end wrench that looks like it started out as a box end with a small section cut out so it grips all corners on the hex fitting. Harold

03-22-2007	#15 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I did find out what a flare wrench is from this site but the shop didn't have one. I don't think it's too late yet for the nut, I started to round one set of corners and quit until I have more confidence I'm even barking up the right tree, the correct wrench, and more time. This hose seems newer by the printing on it, there was a brand name "Jorx", (it's a wild guess), then some numbers. I'm still going to try and replace it but I'm a bit less confident that's where my problem lies, just because it looks newer. It's been a while since I've messed with brakes. Am I correct in remembering a pretty decent squirt of fluid from the hose when things are 'normal", much more then a weak trickle (as I have now) as i recall.

03-22-2007	#16 (permalink)
yellaopelgt No....its not a Buick.... Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 961 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I would take out the "pin" or whatever that thing is called that holds the brake hose to the body mount. Cut the rubber brake line,and pull it out of there. It will give you more leverage and you wont bend the mount when the assembley is freed up. And....you will get a better angle on the fitting when you heat it up so you dont start melting the carpeting inside the car! Mine was so rusted that I ended up cutting the metal line, flaring it, and putting a new fitting on the end. HTH BTW the looks of the lines can be decieving.... its the inside that collapses and creates a one-way valve of sorts. And you will see a huge difference of the amount of fluid when you get it off....trust me on this one!! Joe

03-22-2007	#17 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Okay, I'll stay on the line so to speak. I hope you put the fitting on before you flared it. Been there, done that The line will go, one way or the other. The connection looks like crap though, the fittings look rust welded together. How hard is it to come by a 10mm flare nut fitting? I wonder if my old flaring tool would flare something this small decently, don't recall trying anything so tiny.

03-22-2007	#18 (permalink)
BobCGT Opeler Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Otisville Michigan Posts: 177 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	The tubing is probably 3/16" diameter with double flared ends

03-22-2007	#19 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	When I replaced the brake system on Willit?, all the fittings were badly rusted together. Over the years I ended up with 5 pairs of vice-grips and had to use two of them to break the lines loose. One on the flare nut, the other on the hose fitting, using a scissors motion, I was lucky they came apart fairly easy. Of course I didn't care if I trashed them, they were gonna be replaced anyway. If you do trash the line at the fitting, a standard 45 degree double flare will work nicely, it is the standard for the automotive industry world wide. For the aircraft industry the standard flare is 37 degrees, so care must be used when going to AN or MS flare fittings, sometimes they'll work, sometimes you can't stop the leaks. The reason brake fitting usually get badly corroded, brake fluid is a sponge to water, so any seepage at the fittings accelerates the corrosion process. HTH.

03-22-2007	#20 (permalink)
Mike Preble Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 346 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	NAPA has always had those nuts for my car. They will even carry unbent tubing with flare nuts already attached. Just take the old nut in to make sure you get the right one as it is metric and not SAE. Mike

03-22-2007	#21 (permalink)
jvandyke Opeler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Hudsonville, Michigan, USA Posts: 1,790 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Just came from NAPA, I don't have a double flare tool so I opted to buy what I hope is a decent enough 10mm flare nut wrench, one choice, set of three metric "Everlast" brand, it's all they had. I got a can of PB Blaster and it's soaking now. If I destroy it I'll either buy the flare tool and a nut or a generic line and bend it up myself. Either way I win because I'm learning something new at every turn. Aren't we having fun? I am. Or maybe AutoZone loans out double flare tools.