What angle to reflare brake lines? - Page 2

namba209 · 02-07-2008

Originally Posted by markandson

The fittings (bolts) are on the lines and the lines are flared on both ends, all you have to do is bend them to fit.

Quite correct Jeff, in fact they come in a package about 3-4 feet long. The longer pieces in the package are bent 180 degrees so they all fit in the package. The 180 bends were quite easy to straighten out, by judicial use of a vise and extreme care. They are mild seamless steel tubing, so the large radius bends are fairly easy to bend by hand, but short radius bends must be made with a tube bender to prevent kinking of the lines. It wasn't too hard to install in Willit?, but I've got "some" experience in installing stainless hydraulic, fuel and oil lines in aircraft. The only thing I could fault with the package was the rubber bushings, under the clamping straps, used in the original lines was missing, but I solved that by slitting some rubber hose lengthwise and slipping them over the lines and under the straps.

yellaopelgt · 02-07-2008

Come on guys... he's just a 16 kid with no $$$. He cant do a complete rebuild, just get her back on the road (safely I might add.)wink. I already have his address and sending the fittings. He SHOULD (hint)replace the line, pump the system up, and watch another line go "pop".I'm sure if there's not any leaks (pull the rear wheels and check the cylinders)he will do a few EMERGENCY slides to check everything is kosher.....

Hopefully things go OK for him and if the other lines go bad he saw/ will learn how to do this stuff on his own. "just like we did". You guys remember the days when you were broke and runnin with less than a full deck, dont ya??? Sounds like a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, CRIPES... when I was that age... the last thing I thought about was insurance....I had girls on the brain. He's got the priorities straight.....more than I ever did...

(not promoting any bad behavior...just an old guy that knows how it goes....)

Joe

gt crazy · 02-07-2008

my brakes worked before, its just that my master cylinder and booster went out. and i put new ones on. but when i was putting the driver side front brake line on and it wouldnt tighten down for that tight seal. so i used some muscle then the head of the bolt stripped out. i was lucky and got it off with no problem. all the other lines tighten right up it didnt make any sense. considering 1 week before it would go on the old master cylinder with ease.

Ha i don't know about any e-brake slides lol. i dont trust my rearend yet. im scared it might like fall off or something. i havent really drove car enough to trust it fully yet

namba209 · 02-07-2008

Joe, I hear you, big time. I was lucky at that age working in my uncle's garage. Having all the tools and getting some first class on-the-job training. But, with the brake system? Man, we just wanna be sure he's aroung for his next birthday. Yeah, it's easy to replace the line at the MC, I think that's the one with the screwed up fitting, but asking an inexperienced youngster to attempt a double flare and get it right the first time, IDK. It's just so much easier to get the right line, or one similar in length with the correct fittings and just remove and replace the whole thing. JMTCW.

gt crazy · 02-07-2008

im gonna probably take it to a brake shop to have them do the double flare if my dad can't fix it somehow. he has all kinds of nifty tricks to do stuff

namba209 · 02-07-2008

Originally Posted by gt crazy

my brakes worked before, its just that my master cylinder and booster went out. and i put new ones on. but when i was putting the driver side front brake line on and it wouldnt tighten down for that tight seal. so i used some muscle then the head of the bolt stripped out. i was lucky and got it off with no problem. all the other lines tighten right up it didnt make any sense. considering 1 week before it would go on the old master cylinder with ease.

I'm hoping, from what you said, that the fitting screwed in to the MC easily for about 2-3 turns by hand, then when you put the wrench on it to torque it down, you rounded off the flats on the fitting. Now, if you barely got it started in the threads, then put the wrench on it, there is a possiblilty you've cross threaded the fitting in the MC. I sure hope I'm wrong. The only way to tell for sure if the threads are O. K. is to look at the threads of the fitting and see if there is no metal transfer in the threads, or flats spots on the threads.

gt crazy · 02-07-2008

nah i didnt cross thread it. i always start it off by hand and screw it till i cant do it no more then put the 10mm line wrench on it

namba209 · 02-07-2008

That's great to hear. Especially after you've put out the bucks for a new MC and booster.

gt crazy · 02-07-2008

im still gonna take the off mc and look just to be sure though. cars can work in funky ways sometimes

Killer Texas GT · 02-07-2008

Metric fittings which you find at the local parts house are usually the Asian metric variety, they are totally different than the European metric fittings. the thread spacing a pitch is different like night and day also the flare is different both on the line and fitting. So be sure to compare them closely to to your original brake line. And be sure to use the end you did not screw up as the example to compare with. Your best bet is togo to NAPA get the length closest to the line you are replacing or a tad longer, by the single side line bender and start at one end and work your way to the other matching your bends (the trick is to think backwards when bending it ask any electrician who bends conduit), the line and tool would set you back maybe $15 to $20 bucks and that's buying a 5' steel line to boot.

Jeff(markandson) if you use the Isuzu rearend and brakes you will need the asian fitting to tie in at the caliper hoses (put on your OGTS lines ONE END ONLY) then use european the rest of the way out. If I sent you the "T" block and lines you will need to put an asian fitting on one end of your 12" line from the torque tube to the "T" if you need a fitting let me know and I can send you some.

markandson · 02-08-2008

Originally Posted by Killer Texas GT

Jeff(markandson) if you use the Isuzu rearend and brakes you will need the asian fitting to tie in at the caliper hoses (put on your OGTS lines ONE END ONLY) then use european the rest of the way out. If I sent you the "T" block and lines you will need to put an asian fitting on one end of your 12" line from the torque tube to the "T" if you need a fitting let me know and I can send you some.

Rod,
Does this mean that my stainless steel hoses that I got for my original rearend setup will not work on the Isuzu calipers, sounds like NOT. What is the thread style at the caliper on Isuzu?
Jeff

GTJIM · 02-08-2008

Jeff,

You should be able to get wee screw-in adaptors from a (good) Brake Shop.
I think they are M10 X 1.0mm pitch - will check.

gt crazy · 02-09-2008

soooo.... yah..... my dad stripped the threads out of a BRAND NEW MASTER CYLINDER....

Any suggestions what you could do? atleast he paid for it not me. just one be driving for another month....

markandson · 02-10-2008

Originally Posted by gt crazy

soooo.... yah..... my dad stripped the threads out of a BRAND NEW MASTER CYLINDER....

Any suggestions what you could do? atleast he paid for it not me. just one be driving for another month....

Sorry I've got nothing in my bag of tricks for you now, maybe someone else does, but since this post sat for a few hours with no response I have a feeling you are SOL.

GTJIM · 02-10-2008

Since the thread is Metric it may be possible to bore the hole out to the next SAE tapping size and the brass fitting out to fit a slightly larger brake fitting 'banjo' bolt from similar Domestic brake cylinder.

This would require careful investigation and some help from a very competent engineering tradesman. I shall do a bit of research for you and see if it possible and what sizes to use.

It might be possible to open the thread out to a larger size and use an SAE to metric screw-in adaptor (That looks just like a tiny pipe fitting ... see pic attached)

Get your Dad to sniff around your locallity to try and find an 'old' guy who has a small toolmaking business or does tricky little engineering jobs. We are about - just take a bit of finding!

namba209 · 02-10-2008

Jim, the only problem I can see with tapping out the hole, is, there is a seat in the bottom of the hole for the double flare to seal against., It's not the threads that do the sealing on that fitting. I was contemplating putting a heli-coil in mine, until I looked inside the hole and saw that. It would take a bottoming tap and even then may screw up that seat.

markandson · 02-11-2008

I guess you could drill it out and then tap it with a pipe thread, then screw in an adapter, but you would have to take the MC apart to avoid getting the debris into the cylinder bores. Also I was in a parts store today and found myself to be wrong about the cost of a double flare tool. I bought a set for $20 but I think it is a real cheap set, but figured it would be good to have one laying around. I then checked McMaster and the least expensive one is about $80 so I guess that must be where I got my original "expensive" thought from.

jordan · 02-11-2008

I have been waiting for a used hydraulic brake line flaring tool to come around. They cost between $300-400 most of the time, but are worth it. Literally perfect flares every time.

oldopelguy · 02-11-2008

Might be easiest to take your old master cylinder apart, hone it out with a brake cylinder hone, then transfer all the new moving parts from your new stripped out master cylinder to it. Won't look new unless you clean it up good, but it should work just fine and cost you essentially nothing.

Killer Texas GT · 02-11-2008

Originally Posted by markandson

Rod,
Does this mean that my stainless steel hoses that I got for my original rearend setup will not work on the Isuzu calipers, sounds like NOT. What is the thread style at the caliper on Isuzu?
Jeff

Jeff I will get you taken care of so you can use the stainless lines you got from Gil, I will be working on it for you, I think you will find that your stainless lines will be a wee short anyway, so no need to worry, I will set to work on it and have them ready before I take off to NYC and Jersey in March or April when ever the BOSS says let's go. That way I can bring them to you in Kent and we could try out the twin engines.

02-07-2008	#27 (permalink)
yellaopelgt No....its not a Buick.... Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Milwaukee Posts: 961 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Come on guys... he's just a 16 kid with no $$$. He cant do a complete rebuild, just get her back on the road (safely I might add.)wink. I already have his address and sending the fittings. He SHOULD (hint)replace the line, pump the system up, and watch another line go "pop".I'm sure if there's not any leaks (pull the rear wheels and check the cylinders)he will do a few EMERGENCY slides to check everything is kosher.....Hopefully things go OK for him and if the other lines go bad he saw/ will learn how to do this stuff on his own. "just like we did". You guys remember the days when you were broke and runnin with less than a full deck, dont ya??? Sounds like a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, CRIPES... when I was that age... the last thing I thought about was insurance....I had girls on the brain. He's got the priorities straight.....more than I ever did... (not promoting any bad behavior...just an old guy that knows how it goes....) Joe

02-07-2008	#35 (permalink)
Killer Texas GT Senior Contributor Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Leonard, Texas Posts: 862 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	fitting information For markandson and GT CRAZY Metric fittings which you find at the local parts house are usually the Asian metric variety, they are totally different than the European metric fittings. the thread spacing a pitch is different like night and day also the flare is different both on the line and fitting. So be sure to compare them closely to to your original brake line. And be sure to use the end you did not screw up as the example to compare with. Your best bet is togo to NAPA get the length closest to the line you are replacing or a tad longer, by the single side line bender and start at one end and work your way to the other matching your bends (the trick is to think backwards when bending it ask any electrician who bends conduit), the line and tool would set you back maybe $15 to $20 bucks and that's buying a 5' steel line to boot. Jeff(markandson) if you use the Isuzu rearend and brakes you will need the asian fitting to tie in at the caliper hoses (put on your OGTS lines ONE END ONLY) then use european the rest of the way out. If I sent you the "T" block and lines you will need to put an asian fitting on one end of your 12" line from the torque tube to the "T" if you need a fitting let me know and I can send you some.

02-08-2008	#37 (permalink)
GTJIM 4246 Post Club Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,524 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	Adaptors Jeff, You should be able to get wee screw-in adaptors from a (good) Brake Shop. I think they are M10 X 1.0mm pitch - will check.

02-07-2008	#28 (permalink)
gt crazy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st.louis Posts: 323 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	my brakes worked before, its just that my master cylinder and booster went out. and i put new ones on. but when i was putting the driver side front brake line on and it wouldnt tighten down for that tight seal. so i used some muscle then the head of the bolt stripped out. i was lucky and got it off with no problem. all the other lines tighten right up it didnt make any sense. considering 1 week before it would go on the old master cylinder with ease. Ha i don't know about any e-brake slides lol. i dont trust my rearend yet. im scared it might like fall off or something. i havent really drove car enough to trust it fully yet

02-07-2008	#29 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	Joe, I hear you, big time. I was lucky at that age working in my uncle's garage. Having all the tools and getting some first class on-the-job training. But, with the brake system? Man, we just wanna be sure he's aroung for his next birthday. Yeah, it's easy to replace the line at the MC, I think that's the one with the screwed up fitting, but asking an inexperienced youngster to attempt a double flare and get it right the first time, IDK. It's just so much easier to get the right line, or one similar in length with the correct fittings and just remove and replace the whole thing. JMTCW.

02-07-2008	#30 (permalink)
gt crazy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st.louis Posts: 323 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	im gonna probably take it to a brake shop to have them do the double flare if my dad can't fix it somehow. he has all kinds of nifty tricks to do stuff

02-07-2008	#32 (permalink)
gt crazy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st.louis Posts: 323 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	nah i didnt cross thread it. i always start it off by hand and screw it till i cant do it no more then put the 10mm line wrench on it

02-07-2008	#33 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	That's great to hear. Especially after you've put out the bucks for a new MC and booster.

02-07-2008	#34 (permalink)
gt crazy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st.louis Posts: 323 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	im still gonna take the off mc and look just to be sure though. cars can work in funky ways sometimes

02-09-2008	#38 (permalink)
gt crazy Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: st.louis Posts: 323 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	soooo.... yah..... my dad stripped the threads out of a BRAND NEW MASTER CYLINDER.... Any suggestions what you could do? atleast he paid for it not me. just one be driving for another month....

02-10-2008	#41 (permalink)
namba209 6,000 Post Club Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Imperial Beach, CA South of San Diego Posts: 6,033 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 4	Jim, the only problem I can see with tapping out the hole, is, there is a seat in the bottom of the hole for the double flare to seal against., It's not the threads that do the sealing on that fitting. I was contemplating putting a heli-coil in mine, until I looked inside the hole and saw that. It would take a bottoming tap and even then may screw up that seat.

02-11-2008	#42 (permalink)
markandson Senior Contributor Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kent Lakes, NY Posts: 1,551 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Provided Answers: 2	I guess you could drill it out and then tap it with a pipe thread, then screw in an adapter, but you would have to take the MC apart to avoid getting the debris into the cylinder bores. Also I was in a parts store today and found myself to be wrong about the cost of a double flare tool. I bought a set for $20 but I think it is a real cheap set, but figured it would be good to have one laying around. I then checked McMaster and the least expensive one is about $80 so I guess that must be where I got my original "expensive" thought from.

02-11-2008	#43 (permalink)
jordan Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: corning ny 14830 Posts: 2,123 Classified Rating: 100% (1)	I have been waiting for a used hydraulic brake line flaring tool to come around. They cost between $300-400 most of the time, but are worth it. Literally perfect flares every time.

02-11-2008	#44 (permalink)
oldopelguy Have Opel, Will Travel Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickens, SC Posts: 1,610 Classified Rating: 0% (0) Logbook Entries: 3 Provided Answers: 1	Might be easiest to take your old master cylinder apart, hone it out with a brake cylinder hone, then transfer all the new moving parts from your new stripped out master cylinder to it. Won't look new unless you clean it up good, but it should work just fine and cost you essentially nothing.