Engine identification # and VIN on a GT?

[likengtj]

I've been looking around to see if there is any way of telling if I have an original engine in my 71 GT ...

Are there any numbers in the block that I can match to the VIN?

[likengtj]

Any takers on this one?

[opelmark]

Well, let's answer that question with another question--have you ever heard anyone refer to a "numbers matching" GT? The VIN will tell you about the original paint color, weight, axle load, and so on, but that number on the block (probably 19S *********) doesn't appear anywhere but on the block. European automakers did quite a few things differently than US automakers--and, as far as I know, still do.

[Stainless72]

Well what about the SN itself? I know my GT engine was replaced by a Kaddett engine and I have an SN if 19S-23XXXX so is there a range the corresponds to XXXX?

-Sean

[likengtj]

So let me see if I hear this correctly ....

The BLOCK number is no where to be traced or matched against????

So, what do WE mean by a "NUMBERS MATCHING" GT?

Can anyone REALLY prove that you have an original engine?
(Original 1st time owners can take an exception to that question )

[opelmark]

[quote]Originally posted by likengtj
[b]So let me see if I hear this correctly ....

The BLOCK number is no where to be traced or matched against????

Correct.

So, what do WE mean by a "NUMBERS MATCHING" GT?



WE mean there's no such animal.


Can anyone REALLY prove that you have an original engine?

No, they CAN'T.

[RallyBob]

I've never seen a numbers-matching Opel myself, even in my teen years when I stripped 4-5 of them a week for two summers. You can verify the year and month of the block's manufacture, and the year of the head. Same goes for the distributor, intake manifold, thermostat housing, and various other small pieces...they have the date of manufacture on them. But as far as pure numbers matching....I've never seen it.

In fact, TWO of the Mantas I've owned actually had mismatching ID tags on them. The Manta has the VIN number on the A-pillar, on the underhood aluminum tag, and stamped into the body just above the firewall. In the case of both of my cars with incorrect numbers, only ONE of the three tags was off by only one digit in sequence (on the A-pillar). So it was not a case of a stolen car, it appears it was a case of the assembly line screwing up the tag sequence during assembly.

By the same token, one of those Mantas (a 1974) also had a factory-installed 1.9S block (not US) with flat-top pistons. But the head had hydraulic lifters. I bought that car from the original owner back in 1986 with 63K on it. Never had engine work on it. So it appears Opel had no rhyme or reason when it came to numbers.

Bob

[houserc]

I was researching some stuff and ran across your question. It didn't seem to be answered. Did you get your information.

I ran into this problem and Gil and Denis, at Opel GT source, were a great help.

The number on the radiator is the body number. It is the part number used by the body manufacturer and may or may not (mostly NOT) be related to the VIN number.

[andrewo]

This thread raises an interesting philosophical issue. I actually like the fact that it doesn't really matter whether these cars are "numbers matching" or not. My friends with Corvettes tear their hair out trying to get date coded parts, or obscure bits of outdated electronics rebuilt so they can put the "right piece" back in. When I need to fix something, I buy a new one, and if someone has invented a better mousetrap in the last 30 years, I put it in.

To me, that's the great thing about owning a fun, classic car that you can actually drive and work on. (Hopefully in that order. I have another old car that I am working on with the ultimate hope of driving it. Its been 3 years now.)

Of course, knowing the real mileage of an original motor is always a helpful thing, but from a restoration and upgrade standpoint, I'm glad its impossible to tell. Hopefully that means it will never matter.

Andrew

[baz]

i've never seen maching numbers on a euopean car and i've had 31 now it only seems to be a north american thing as gm, ford,crysler in europe all missmatch its the same here with nissan (uk factory 3 mile away ) they never worry about it ,
ive even had a ford sierra with 2 chassis and vin numbers as the factory taged 1 car wrong then had to duplicate the numbers for the correct one (try explaining that one to the law even when you have a n affidavid from ford which says so)

[Jim Branham]

The only 3 locations of the vin # I know of are on the dash pad, the cowl and by the door latch on the door, printed on a silver foil which also has the production date on it. I have never seen a GT with engine # matching vin #

[houserc]

And the one on the door may not match if the door was changed, IF the tag on the door even exists.

Make sure that all tags are attached to the car when you go in for inspection.

It cost me an additional $500 to get the state to say, "Yep, that's the numbers for that car." I had to get a quiet title for a car that I had receipts on from the prior owner all the way back to the original purchase receipt, AND an affidavit from the PO as to why the VIN plates had been removed and where he put them. (He had treated and painted the car and recovered the dash.)

The State officials confiscated them and then showed me the law were it was illegal to possess VIN plates not attached to the car. AND THAT it was punishable by up to a prison term. (Oh, Joy!)

And then try to tell them it's JUST a 30 year old car.

SO, I can not stress enough to anybody buying an old car - make sure the VIN plates are attached to the car......

[Jim Branham]

yes, there is definitely a foil like tag on the door of my 70 parts car that matches the vin on the dashpad and the cowl. Unless it has been removed, or changed, it should be there.

[houserc]

In the prep work for my GT, this foil tag came off. Lotta good that is.

The older cars really drive the inspecters nuts.

[Jim Branham]

cowl tag with dash pad vin- dash in horrible shape, will probably get scrapped, so I saved vin plate on it

[Motor Mouth]

I'm sure I've got matching numbers all round ,but I guess that's one of the joys of having a one owner GT.

Jim.......did you know that you can now get replacement VIN plates from Bucta Motorsport in Germany. Suselbeek in Holland may also be able to supply them.

[houserc]

Do you have an address or URL for Bucta? I looked out at Suselbeek's site and I could not find anything with a search for VIN plates or ID Plates.

Thanks.

[Motor Mouth]

Houserc

The web site is http://www.buchta-motorsport.de/

Happy hunting, Thomas is a great guy, but his english isn't too good. If you decide to order any and need some help let me know as my father lives 20mins from the showroom and they're currently restoring his GT.

[greensmurf20]

"By the same token, one of those Mantas (a 1974) also had a factory-installed 1.9S block (not US) with flat-top pistons. But the head had hydraulic lifters. I bought that car from the original owner back in 1986 with 63K on it. Never had engine work on it. So it appears Opel had no rhyme or reason when it came to numbers."

that was from rallybobs post in this thread

my 72 manta rallye has a block that startes with 19S, not 19US like most of my engines. the head is a 71 head with hydraulics, altho i know that has already been changed, i've yet to search for numbers on the block. does this mean its a european block, and being designated by the S give a small change of having flat tops in a 1972 US car?

[GTJIM]

Nobody and I looked at this extensively some time ago and discovered that if the block number has a * mark at both ends of the serial number it was originally equipped with flat top pistons. With a * mark at one end only ( usually the arse end) the block had been originally fitted with lo-comp pistons.
This was true of 19S numbers but no one ever came up with any 19US block numbers. GS20; Do you have any 19US block numbers that can be positively identified with a particular year of GT? And of known piston type?

[greensmurf20]

71 GT with a 19S block, asterik and both ends of the engine number fitted with low compression pistons, car was made 9-70, all 70 casting dates, but titled as 71.

the manta has a 19S block with asteriks and both ends of engine number, dont know if its origional engine but i believe it to be, not sure of its pistons.