Opel before the Vette?

ConreroGT · 05-20-2003

I know there's been some debate on who came first, the GT or the Vette. Some of you may have seen this...

Check this out:

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/S..._02/page5.html

-k

TGSI Racing · 05-21-2003

Interesting... I saw some Opel documentation, pictures and stuff that the Opel GT Source has that clearly shows that the basic design for the Opel was completed well in advance of the Vette. The next time I visit Gill, I'll see if I can copy/scan the documentation.

ConreroGT · 05-21-2003

Even on Opel's own website it makes a vauge reference to the Vette coming first. I continue to hear both stories. It'd be really interesting to see some factual documentation. Maybe that'd be a good question on some Speedvision auto show like My Classic Car or something and see what they say. If they respond to it.

-kyle

opelmark · 05-21-2003

"My Classic Car" has shown Opel GTs before (Dennis Gage owns one . . . clean , very stock), but the only real "historical" segment I've ever seen on the GT was the Classic Car and Driver segment aired last year on TNN, featuring Ken Litke's very nice white car. They mention, and show pictures of the prototype GT introduced at the Frankfurt Auto show in 1965, and the editors of Car and Driver generally give a brutally accurate appraisal of the GT: great styling, lacking in handling and performance. Keep an eye on Car and Driver TV, they might re-run it sometime in the future.

Gary · 05-21-2003

I have a copy of the C&D program *somewhere*.
The prototype GT appeared at the Frankfurt Auto show in 1965.
If anyone wants to write a history of the GT article, we'll put it up!

jimsky · 05-21-2003

Someone saved and hosted the C&D Opel GT show on their website. I found it one night doing Google searches on "Opel GT" and bookmarked the site on my home computer. I just happened to stumble upon this bookmark last weekend and watched the episode again. I can post the link when I get home if anyone wants to see the segment.

TGSI Racing · 05-21-2003

Somewhere in my piles of stuff... now burried after the shop move... I have a sheet from Opel showing all of the numbers, by year, imported into the US. There were 30 or 40 1968 models imported (sold) here. When I finish digging out everything I'll post the numbers.

runagt2 · 05-21-2003

The definitive history is "Das Grosse GT Buch," but it's in German. I did a GT history for the Blitz a few years ago. If anyone is interested, I can dig it up and post it, but that will have to wait until I finish the current Blitz.
In the meantime, the "quickie" version is that the GT is based on the Experimental GT, while the '68 Vette is based on the Mako Shark II, both of which were shown in 1965. So neither came first. But both were in turn based on a pair of Corvair show cars from 1962, the Monza GT & SS.
As for the targa tops, Gordon Buehrig (designer of the classic Cord, Duesenbergs, Auburns, etc) designed an abysmally ugly sports car called TASCO in 1948 that sported the first T-tops. He patented the idea in 1951, tried to get Ford to use them on the original T-Bird and ended up settling out of court with GM in '68 when they showed up on the Vette without permission.

opelspyder · 05-21-2003

As far as I know the vette came first....as far as the sting ray style. But interesting history linked with Opel and the Corvette.....The first Corvette project name was covered up and called "The Opel Project" so no one would be curious to what was going on.

Motor Mouth · 07-16-2003

This is my first post on the site, but being a GTophile I though some of you might want to check out the Book 'Project 1484'. The book title relates to Opels code number for the GT and the first few chapters covers the GT's development.

I'll try and upload a photo at some point, but during the design phase a picture of the 'Mako' vette can be seen hanging on the wall behind design team so as to provide some inspiration to their work.

BTW: great site, sure to be visiting on daily basis.

BDD · 07-17-2003

As an architect I tend to look closely at design issues. I have always liked the GT body styling. One thing that is admirable to me is the fact that that almost every surface is either curved or made of compound curves in two directions at once. For anyone who went through the awful era of the mid to late seventies and the eighties of flat looking auto's with absolutely no shape or style, the Opel GT stands out as a great visual design.
Just because it might have been "influenced" by the Stingray Corvette design does not mean an any way that it was a "copy". To me it is plainly another design altogether. Most designs are in some way influenced by other work. Personally, to me it looks very different from the 1960's Corvettes, which were the only ones that I ever really liked (the 1950's originals are good too) and is much better than the 1970's Corvettes that were too big and rather awkward looking. The Opel GT is a very unique and interesting design that deserves credit for it's own sake. How many cars are there, after all, that look anything like it?

BDD

runagt2 · 07-17-2003

Mark-
I'm curious about this book "Project 1484." Never seen it. I just searched Amazon (both US and UK sites) and found nothing. Is it out of print? Where did you get it?

John

pvcar · 07-17-2003

i also did the same thing i searched amazon and barnes and nobel for it couldnt find it either, want to find a copy if possible sounds like a cool book for a gt gu ru to own.

Motor Mouth · 07-17-2003

Hi John,

I managed to get hold of a copy of Opel GT Projekt 1484 at a Eurotreffen a few years ago.

The Euro meet was the Conrero spectacular with 2 genuine Conrero's on display, one being our club Chairmans car. I believe his Conrero is the only genuine road going Crossflow Conrero running at the moment.

I've done a search on Amazon for you but it's not listed there and I've also checked Suselbek / Parsgets site and there's no mention there either, I can only assume its no longer in print, but if it helps here is the ISBN 3-86133-170-5.

If your interested in getting a copy let me know as I may have one other source try.

houserc · 07-17-2003

I too, did some searching and came up with only references to the book.

Here is a site that has some interesting information. Its in German, so have fun.

http://members.aol.com/billygt69/GT-History.html

houserc · 07-17-2003

Here you go. After some searching, here is the result.

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASI...497686-1781663

Seems they only supply used copies now.

Motor Mouth · 07-17-2003

All,

The copies I may be able to get hold of are new. It would appear getting them through Amazon as 2nd hand could be v.difficult but if you must have a copy now then you could try searching on ebay.de as I sometimes see the odd copy on there.

If there are any new ones out there I'll try and get a price in the next few days.

Thom71GT · 07-18-2003

There was reference made that the person that designed the bodystyle of the Opel GT ALSO Designed that same body style of the Corvette and in his [the designers] memrois he wrote that he designed the Opel GT First and also liked it BETTER than the Corvette.

downtempo · 07-21-2003

hi everyone

this is my first post but i've loved the GT for a long time...

i believe mr. kodama was the designer of the opel gt... if anyone is planning to attend concourse d'elegance this year, i hear he might attend... i'll try to find out directly from the horse's mouth..

i did also hear that the OPEL GT was mr. kodama's favorite design.

by the way, does anyone know what the offset of the wheels on the stock 1972 GT is?

thanks!

Motor Mouth · 07-21-2003

I'm sure Mr Kodama was the designer of the Opel Tigra and Clare
McKichan was the designer of the GT.

Gary · 07-21-2003

Originally posted by downtempo
by the way, does anyone know what the offset of the wheels on the stock 1972 GT is?

Try a site search for "Wheels" or "wheel offset". There are several threads on this.

mimi2 · 07-25-2003

As I know,
GM designers made the GT drawings first.
The Vette designers used the idea to create the the Vette.
The first car to be produced was the Vette.
I suppose it's something like that...
regards

Marc

downtempo · 07-26-2003

mark & marc...

i spoke with some other designers that know both mr. kodama and clare and they claim that Clare was in charge of overall design for Opel during the time of the GT but in fact the car was designed by a team, lead by mr. kodama.

and, they say the team had multiple sketches of the vette posted in the room while they worked on their design.

.....

Motor Mouth · 07-29-2003

Sounds interesting Downtempo.

I've looked through all my GT literature and can't see a mention of Mr Kodama, but that's not to say he wasn't involved, in fact it would be quite nice to think that the pretty little Tigra and GT where linked by the same designers / team.

05-20-2003	#1 (permalink)
ConreroGT Senior Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wa Posts: 656 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Opel before the Vette? I know there's been some debate on who came first, the GT or the Vette. Some of you may have seen this... Check this out: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/S..._02/page5.html -k

05-21-2003	#4 (permalink)
opelmark Opeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 100 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Opel on Speedvision (or TNN) "My Classic Car" has shown Opel GTs before (Dennis Gage owns one . . . clean , very stock), but the only real "historical" segment I've ever seen on the GT was the Classic Car and Driver segment aired last year on TNN, featuring Ken Litke's very nice white car. They mention, and show pictures of the prototype GT introduced at the Frankfurt Auto show in 1965, and the editors of Car and Driver generally give a brutally accurate appraisal of the GT: great styling, lacking in handling and performance. Keep an eye on Car and Driver TV, they might re-run it sometime in the future.

05-21-2003	#9 (permalink)
opelspyder Opel Key Master Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,063 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Opel or Vette???? As far as I know the vette came first....as far as the sting ray style. But interesting history linked with Opel and the Corvette.....The first Corvette project name was covered up and called "The Opel Project" so no one would be curious to what was going on.

07-17-2003	#11 (permalink)
BDD Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 581 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Opel GT styling As an architect I tend to look closely at design issues. I have always liked the GT body styling. One thing that is admirable to me is the fact that that almost every surface is either curved or made of compound curves in two directions at once. For anyone who went through the awful era of the mid to late seventies and the eighties of flat looking auto's with absolutely no shape or style, the Opel GT stands out as a great visual design. Just because it might have been "influenced" by the Stingray Corvette design does not mean an any way that it was a "copy". To me it is plainly another design altogether. Most designs are in some way influenced by other work. Personally, to me it looks very different from the 1960's Corvettes, which were the only ones that I ever really liked (the 1950's originals are good too) and is much better than the 1970's Corvettes that were too big and rather awkward looking. The Opel GT is a very unique and interesting design that deserves credit for it's own sake. How many cars are there, after all, that look anything like it? BDD

07-17-2003	#13 (permalink)
pvcar 4ZUA787 Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Rancho Palos Verdes CA,USA Posts: 668 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	gt book i also did the same thing i searched amazon and barnes and nobel for it couldnt find it either, want to find a copy if possible sounds like a cool book for a gt gu ru to own.

05-21-2003	#2 (permalink)
TGSI Racing Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: California Posts: 286 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Interesting... I saw some Opel documentation, pictures and stuff that the Opel GT Source has that clearly shows that the basic design for the Opel was completed well in advance of the Vette. The next time I visit Gill, I'll see if I can copy/scan the documentation.

05-21-2003	#3 (permalink)
ConreroGT Senior Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Wa Posts: 656 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Even on Opel's own website it makes a vauge reference to the Vette coming first. I continue to hear both stories. It'd be really interesting to see some factual documentation. Maybe that'd be a good question on some Speedvision auto show like My Classic Car or something and see what they say. If they respond to it. -kyle

05-21-2003	#5 (permalink)
Gary Site Admin Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Swansea, MA Posts: 4,764 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I have a copy of the C&D program somewhere. The prototype GT appeared at the Frankfurt Auto show in 1965. If anyone wants to write a history of the GT article, we'll put it up!

05-21-2003	#6 (permalink)
jimsky Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: East Northport, NY Posts: 244 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Someone saved and hosted the C&D Opel GT show on their website. I found it one night doing Google searches on "Opel GT" and bookmarked the site on my home computer. I just happened to stumble upon this bookmark last weekend and watched the episode again. I can post the link when I get home if anyone wants to see the segment.

05-21-2003	#7 (permalink)
TGSI Racing Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: California Posts: 286 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Somewhere in my piles of stuff... now burried after the shop move... I have a sheet from Opel showing all of the numbers, by year, imported into the US. There were 30 or 40 1968 models imported (sold) here. When I finish digging out everything I'll post the numbers.

05-21-2003	#8 (permalink)
runagt2 Opeler Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CA Posts: 11 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	The definitive history is "Das Grosse GT Buch," but it's in German. I did a GT history for the Blitz a few years ago. If anyone is interested, I can dig it up and post it, but that will have to wait until I finish the current Blitz. In the meantime, the "quickie" version is that the GT is based on the Experimental GT, while the '68 Vette is based on the Mako Shark II, both of which were shown in 1965. So neither came first. But both were in turn based on a pair of Corvair show cars from 1962, the Monza GT & SS. As for the targa tops, Gordon Buehrig (designer of the classic Cord, Duesenbergs, Auburns, etc) designed an abysmally ugly sports car called TASCO in 1948 that sported the first T-tops. He patented the idea in 1951, tried to get Ford to use them on the original T-Bird and ended up settling out of court with GM in '68 when they showed up on the Vette without permission.

07-16-2003	#10 (permalink)
Motor Mouth 'NO,......O P E L..G T!' Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 516 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	This is my first post on the site, but being a GTophile I though some of you might want to check out the Book 'Project 1484'. The book title relates to Opels code number for the GT and the first few chapters covers the GT's development. I'll try and upload a photo at some point, but during the design phase a picture of the 'Mako' vette can be seen hanging on the wall behind design team so as to provide some inspiration to their work. BTW: great site, sure to be visiting on daily basis.

07-17-2003	#12 (permalink)
runagt2 Opeler Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: CA Posts: 11 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Mark- I'm curious about this book "Project 1484." Never seen it. I just searched Amazon (both US and UK sites) and found nothing. Is it out of print? Where did you get it? John

07-17-2003	#14 (permalink)
Motor Mouth 'NO,......O P E L..G T!' Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 516 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Hi John, I managed to get hold of a copy of Opel GT Projekt 1484 at a Eurotreffen a few years ago. The Euro meet was the Conrero spectacular with 2 genuine Conrero's on display, one being our club Chairmans car. I believe his Conrero is the only genuine road going Crossflow Conrero running at the moment. I've done a search on Amazon for you but it's not listed there and I've also checked Suselbek / Parsgets site and there's no mention there either, I can only assume its no longer in print, but if it helps here is the ISBN 3-86133-170-5. If your interested in getting a copy let me know as I may have one other source try.

07-17-2003	#15 (permalink)
houserc 70's Opeler, back 4 more! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Shawnee, KS (Kansas City Area) Posts: 405 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I too, did some searching and came up with only references to the book. Here is a site that has some interesting information. Its in German, so have fun. http://members.aol.com/billygt69/GT-History.html

07-17-2003	#16 (permalink)
houserc 70's Opeler, back 4 more! Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Shawnee, KS (Kansas City Area) Posts: 405 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Project 1484 Here you go. After some searching, here is the result. http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASI...497686-1781663 Seems they only supply used copies now. Last edited by houserc; 07-17-2003 at 09:49 AM..

07-17-2003	#17 (permalink)
Motor Mouth 'NO,......O P E L..G T!' Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 516 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	All, The copies I may be able to get hold of are new. It would appear getting them through Amazon as 2nd hand could be v.difficult but if you must have a copy now then you could try searching on ebay.de as I sometimes see the odd copy on there. If there are any new ones out there I'll try and get a price in the next few days.

07-18-2003	#18 (permalink)
Thom71GT Life Long Opeler Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Metro Atlanta - Cumming, GA Posts: 667 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Speaking of the C&D special There was reference made that the person that designed the bodystyle of the Opel GT ALSO Designed that same body style of the Corvette and in his [the designers] memrois he wrote that he designed the Opel GT First and also liked it BETTER than the Corvette.

07-21-2003	#19 (permalink)
downtempo Opeler Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: so cal Posts: 3 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	more design talk.. hi everyone this is my first post but i've loved the GT for a long time... i believe mr. kodama was the designer of the opel gt... if anyone is planning to attend concourse d'elegance this year, i hear he might attend... i'll try to find out directly from the horse's mouth.. i did also hear that the OPEL GT was mr. kodama's favorite design. by the way, does anyone know what the offset of the wheels on the stock 1972 GT is? thanks!

07-21-2003	#20 (permalink)
Motor Mouth 'NO,......O P E L..G T!' Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 516 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	I'm sure Mr Kodama was the designer of the Opel Tigra and Clare McKichan was the designer of the GT.

07-25-2003	#22 (permalink)
mimi2 Opeler Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Belgium Posts: 11 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	who is first GT or Vette?? As I know, GM designers made the GT drawings first. The Vette designers used the idea to create the the Vette. The first car to be produced was the Vette. I suppose it's something like that... regards Marc

07-26-2003	#23 (permalink)
downtempo Opeler Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: so cal Posts: 3 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	mark & marc... i spoke with some other designers that know both mr. kodama and clare and they claim that Clare was in charge of overall design for Opel during the time of the GT but in fact the car was designed by a team, lead by mr. kodama. and, they say the team had multiple sketches of the vette posted in the room while they worked on their design. .....

07-29-2003	#24 (permalink)
Motor Mouth 'NO,......O P E L..G T!' Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Lincoln, UK Posts: 516 Classified Rating: 0% (0)	Sounds interesting Downtempo. I've looked through all my GT literature and can't see a mention of Mr Kodama, but that's not to say he wasn't involved, in fact it would be quite nice to think that the pretty little Tigra and GT where linked by the same designers / team.