"LeMons" Opel Manta turbo system, now slated for street use. - Page 4
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Thread: "LeMons" Opel Manta turbo system, now slated for street use.

  1. #61
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    Bob does the both the intake and exhaust flow more .100 earlier?
    I would think that exhaust flow is more important with a turbo setup.
    The double-a$$ intakes will also help with fuel distribution issues.
    Yes Dan, both intake and exhausts on the 1.9 peak sooner.

    My understanding has always been that the exhaust on a turbo needs to be efficient, but not crazy like a supercharger because once the turbo is spooled up it evacuates the exhaust port pulses quite nicely.

    Meanwhile the intake needs to flow very well to avoid restrictions and pressure drops.

    On the other hand, I've heard of certain situations where normal thinking goes out the window. The 1100 hp Nissan IMSA GTP engines (single cam VG30) liked 102 LSA in their cam design (I've seen the cam specs). And a friend of mine in Europe who tunes rally and rallycross engines found that a restricted Cosworth 2.0 litre liked a super narrow 99 degree LSA and a bunch more exhaust duration. Worth over 40 hp. Go figure!
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    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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  3. #62
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    Oh and the video rocks that you uploaded 3 hrs ago on another site.
    Only 12 seconds long.. but it gets the point across
    Yea, I wasn't sure if there was a way to link from here to Facebook or not.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    ...
    Meanwhile the intake needs to flow very well to avoid restrictions and pressure drops.
    I've had bad experiences the pressure drops on the intake.
    Beware of the crap that's on evilbay.
    They (inter-cooler) are more than likely a cheap knock-off that will not flow worth a hoot.
    The really bad thing is I had to prove it the customer.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    How much modeling clay and temperature differences affects results?

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesis View Post
    How much modeling clay and temperature differences affects results?
    The clay is to ease the entry of air into the port to avoid turbulence. I have a plastic radiused entry I normally use, but I couldn't find it.

    The temperature was fairly extreme. About 60 degrees difference from inlet temp to outlet temp. Maybe 2-3 cfm difference.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    2000 Post Club My location m610's Avatar
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    This raced in LeMons last weekend.



    You have competition in the "Manta class".
    RallyBob, guyopel and Lesis like this.

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Any idea how the car performed in its' class Mike?

    Any specs on the car? Opel powered or does it have a swap?
    m610 likes this.
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    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Any idea how the car performed in its' class Mike?

    Any specs on the car? Opel powered or does it have a swap?
    Judge Phil hasn't done the race results write-up yet and it takes about a week before the full results are posted. I'll keep an eye out for both of those.

    Meanwhile, are things too late in your build to consider this?


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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m610 View Post

    Meanwhile, are things too late in your build to consider this?

    Just a little bit...

    Nothing like a little compound turbocharging to test the integrity of your head gaskets. Lol. Plus we'd need a Charles Goin - style hood to cover it all.
    My Flickr photos.
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    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Any idea how the car performed in its' class Mike?

    Any specs on the car? Opel powered or does it have a swap?
    Here's the race write-up on Car&Driver.

    Link: 24 Hours of LeMons Colorado: Audis Take First Place, Last Place! | Car and Driver Blog

    It finished 31st in a field of 47 or so cars. They had cooling, fueling, and electrical problems, but still won the "Organizer's Choice" award.
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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Assembling the cylinder head ended up dragging out a while. My original intent was to reuse some springs and retainers from my old 1.5 racing head. Trouble is, I couldn't find them. I know I'll find them by next week though, now that the head is done.

    I grabbed a set of new springs and retainers from off my parts shelf. As I was checking spring heights, I realized the springs would be compressed too short and therefore the spring rate was too high for what I was doing. The cam I'm using is very mild and I doubt I'll ever go over 7000 rpms. Plus stiff springs wear out valve seats, wear out lifters and cam lobes, and wear out cam bearings very quickly on Opels. I didn't feel like sending the head back out to machine the spring seats, so I ordered a set of +.050" height valve keepers. I normally don't use these because most of my engines have self-aligning roller rockers which would interfere with an offset keeper. No such issue with this engine as it's running stock rocker arms.

    After a few days of down time waiting for the keepers to come in, I finally got a chance to assemble the head today. It's just waiting for a final degreasing and a coat of paint, then I can bolt it onto the shortblock. Some pics from today:








    And I managed to squirt two coats of primer and three coats of engine enamel onto the head as well before I left my shop tonight. Tomorrow I might dig the donor camshaft out of another engine and get ready to put the valvetrain together.



    Last edited by RallyBob; 09-10-2014 at 09:57 PM.
    opelnut_1 and wrench459 like this.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Assembling the cylinder head ended up dragging out a while. My original intent was to reuse some old springs and retainers from my old 1.5 racing head. Trouble is, I couldn't find them. I know I'll find them by next week though, now that the head is done.
    They always shows up afterwards for some odd reason....

    ggl is there room for one more member of the ..I hate rallybob club?


    Wheres my bifocals I cant read the lines. 1.640 or 1.406?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    Wheres my bifocals I cant read the lines. 1.640 or 1.406?
    1.675"

    I ended up with 1.675" on the intakes, and 1.70-1.705" on the exhaust side.

    I figured with the intake valves being heavier and fighting boost they should be a little stiffer.
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    What is that? Tool for spring height measurements?

    That acid green on head is cool. Have You ever had some difficulties with painting engine parts?Any tips? (I'm just wondering,maybe I should start to paint them,first engine was built without getting fancy).

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lesis View Post
    What is that? Tool for spring height measurements?
    Yes it is.

    That acid green on head is cool. Have You ever had some difficulties with painting engine parts?Any tips? (I'm just wondering,maybe I should start to paint them,first engine was built without getting fancy).
    I usually clean all rust off the engine parts first with a wire wheel. Then degrease all parts. Block is always washed with hot water and soap, cylinder head not always. But I clean the metal with brake cleaner or acetone until it's very clean. Then blow off with compressed air to get rid of fibers from rags. Two light coats of high temperature primer, allowing to full dry between coats. Then two light coats of Rustoleum high temperature engine paint, fully drying between coats. And a final medium-wet coat of paint. That's it.
    Lesis likes this.
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    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Not much to report today. Today was a chore day, and a motorcycle maintenance day.


    I unmasked my painted cylinder head, test fitted a few accessories, and that's about it.




    The oil dam installed in the rear drain hole of the head. This helps to keep the rear cam lobes, notoriously prone to failure from lack of pressurized oil, oiled via splash lubrication. I also added a small hole drilled in the side of the oil dam to allow oil to drain back from the head to the oil pan when the engine is shut off. Otherwise dirty oil would remain during an oil change.




    I fitted the spark plugs to the head. Torqued to 30 ft lbs to seat the washers, backed off, then torqued again. I'm using NGK BPR7HS plugs which are one heat range colder than stock. This is to keep the plugs from overheating given the application (turbocharged). They are also gapped at only .028", since forced induction creates higher pressures in the combustion chambers. High boost can actually 'blow out' the spark with a wide gap. I'll start here and experiment with it later.






    Stainless socket cap screws at the side cam cover.

    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Front cam cover with integral cam shaft thrust adjustment.








    Other than that, I dug out a set of original Opel lifters I had previously resurfaced, and the original rocker arms from this engine which were cleaned and ready to go.

    I just need to pull that CR-150 camshaft from Jim's engine. That was the 'middle' or 'autocross' camshaft that was offered by C & R back in the day.

    It equates to a Cam Techniques F-288, which is .432" lift at the valve, 224° @ .050" duration, 280° advertised duration and 110 degrees lobe separation. They were usually ground with three degrees of advance but I might run this straight up.
    Last edited by RallyBob; 09-16-2014 at 01:39 PM. Reason: corrected duration numbers
    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

  20. #78
    ggl
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    They always shows up afterwards for some odd reason....

    ggl is there room for one more member of the ..I hate rallybob club?
    Only if you also agree to not using smilies
    "I hate RallyBob"


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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    The engine is nearly all buttoned up now. Here's the timing cover area. Note on this (1972) timing cover, it has the bosses for the 12-bolt head, but they are undrilled. And the cover sits below the deck surface as well. Definitely a mid-year changeover detail, as the original head is a '71 casting and is a 10-bolt. I applied a bead of Ultra-Gray sealer at the timing cover.




    The head gasket is a later style gasket, without the cork. So the extra layer of sealer at the front was essential to prevent leaks. I also sprayed the gasket with Permatex Copper sealer. Two light coats, allowing each coat to dry between applications. Then the third heavier coat was sprayed, and the gasket immediately put in place while it was still wet. Notice the extra two 3/8" holes at the manifold-side of the gasket, around the center head bolt hole. This allows coolant from the block to lower the temps at the hotter #2 and #3 exhaust ports.




    Finally the head was torqued in place. The head bolts have some 30 weight oil applied to the threads and to the underside of the bolt head, then they are fitted and torqued in small increments. I torqued them to 25, 45, 60, then 72, and again to 73 ft lbs. The last step displays how unevenly the head tightens to the block. Some of the bolts are already *at* 73, while others need a 1/4 turn to go from 72 to 73.






    Camshaft end play was set at .008" using my adjustable front cam cover.




    I resurfaced a set of old solid lifters from a 1968 head. Yup, I'm reusing 46 year old lifters! I prefer the factory Opel lifters to the aftermarket ones. They seem to last longer and they are lighter by far.

    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Sealed Power break-in lube applied to the lifters (and cam lobes).




    I put a dab of the break-in lube on all the valvetrain contact points before putting the rockers on...on the valve tips, the rocker studs, the rocker balls, the sliding rocker arm tips. Then I set the valve lash. Even though this cam is pretty small, I set the valve lash on the loose end. I went with .016" intake, and .018" exhaust. My reasoning is that under boost the EGT's will get pretty hot, and the valves will expand more than usual. I don't want to hang the valves open under those circumstances from too small a valve clearance.




    Getting closer now! Valve cover is fitted, using stainless 6 mm studs loctited into the head. I had to fabricate a last-minute sheetmetal splash shield inside the valve cover, directly under the filler cap.



    And here's where I left off last night. Distributor is in, and spark plug wires are routed with wire separators made from zip ties. I still need to tighten the crank pulley bolt, bolt on the oil pan, attach the alternator, attach the starter, and install a thermostat.

    I'm using a distributor I modified for mechanical advance only. It has 15 degrees of movement now. I figure I will set the baseline timing at 10° BTDC, giving me 25° total timing. It should work well with the combination of mild cam and low compression ratio to aid in off-boost response, and the total timing should work under the full boost levels I plan to run.

    I have a CB Performance resistorless ignition rotor fitted, a Pertronix 1847V module, a Standard Ignition distributor cap with brass terminals (no aluminum crap!), and 8.5 mm Magnecor plug wires. I also have a Summit multi-spark ignition box with an integral rev limiter, and a Pertronix 1.5 ohm Flame-Thrower HV 60,000 volt coil.

    My Flickr photos.
    C.R.L. 9/22/69 - 12/8/99, J.M.L. 3/3/43 - 6/15/04, D.M.L. 9/19/50 - 6/23/10
    E.G. Sauer 2/26/66 - 2/18/10. Rest in peace big guy...

    '70 GT 'Bonnie', '71 Ascona 4-dr turbo - winter beater, '71 Ascona 4-dr 'Turd' - rallycar, '72 Manta Rallye - hillclimb car, '72 Ascona wagon - 'Red', '72 Manta - caged street car, '73 Manta Luxus, '73 Ascona 2-dr, '74 Ascona 2-dr - Project X, '74 Manta Luxus - factory sunroof, '74 Manta ITB racecar, '75 Manta, '75 Sportwagon, '75 Manta - racecar

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