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Thread: Saving my 2.2 (engine documentation thread)

  1. #21
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    UGH!

    This engine isn't handing out any gifts, other than a good set of timing chain followers.

    I just cleaned and inspected all the pistons. One piston had a broken ring. No big deal in the grand scheme of things. Another, however, was worse. The piston actually broke between the rings. In 30 years of wrenching I've never seen this. Other than the broken section the piston looked great.

    So, I will be needing another piston, and a rod, and, well, a set of rings.

    UGH!

    Here's where the piston broke.


    You can see the wear from the broken piece moving around a lot. THis indicates the piston was broken for quite a while.


    The oil ring shouldn't have broke. I've never seen one break before. It's possible it broke while I was cleaning it but I wasn't being aggressive.


    I think this engine was abused.
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    Last edited by First opel 1981; 05-26-2014 at 12:02 AM.
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  3. #22
    Kid at heart Frozen Tundra GT's Avatar
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    I have a set of nice used and very clean 2.2 pistons and a set of new rings. PO of my Irmscher I240 GT was going to go 2.2 until the 2.4 became available. what a shame.

    Isnt the crank being ground a benefit as long as its achievable within available bearing sizes?

  4. #23
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Check the piston clearance. I'm guessing, like every single 2.2 I've ever taken apart, the bottoms of the piston skirts are collapsed.

    Typically by .005".
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  6. #24
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Tundra GT View Post
    I have a set of nice used and very clean 2.2 pistons and a set of new rings. PO of my Irmscher I240 GT was going to go 2.2 until the 2.4 became available. what a shame.

    Isnt the crank being ground a benefit as long as its achievable within available bearing sizes?
    Yes, the crank being ground IS a benefit, especially at this point. If I hadn't decided to pull the pan before putting the head back on I wouldn't have known of the issue. And, knowing of the bad journal caused me to pull the pistons which showed me bad problems.

    Hmm, you have a set of 2.2 pistons, eh?

    I have a few probes out there. I'm hoping something pans out.
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  7. #25
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RallyBob View Post
    Check the piston clearance. I'm guessing, like every single 2.2 I've ever taken apart, the bottoms of the piston skirts are collapsed.

    Typically by .005".
    Thanks for making me look.

    The news gets worse the more I measure.

    These pistons are slightly over 95mm. Measured to 95.3 to be more precise.
    The skirts measure the same.

    BUT, I no longer seem to need a 2.2 piston. I seem to need an OVERSIZE 2.2 piston.

    UGH X 4
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  8. #26
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    OK, I have been doing some calculating and this is a possible direction.

    RallyBob, feel free to chime in.


    I could purchase some chevy 305 pistons 0.020 oversized which gets me outside of the present bore but keeps me inside my gaskets (96.5mm)

    The Chevy pistons have a compression height of 1.540 (39.116mm)
    They have a pin diameter of 0.927 (23.546mm)

    The stock compression height is 1.619 (41.122mm) which leaves a difference of .079 (2.006mm)
    The stock pin diameter is .905 (23mm) which is a difference of .022 (.546mm)

    So, if I deck the block by .079 (2.006mm) and enlarge the small end on the connecting rod by .022 (.546mm) then I should be able to use the Chevy 305 pistons.

    Is this correct?
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  9. #27
    Tennessean Site Supporter My location hrcollinsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    I could purchase some chevy 305 pistons 0.020 oversized which gets me outside of the present bore but keeps me inside my gaskets (96.5mm)

    The Chevy pistons have a compression height of 1.540 (39.116mm)
    They have a pin diameter of 0.927 (23.546mm)
    There have been many Opel engines built with Chevy pistons and wristpins. The old 265 piston was a common 2L upgrade. I built an engine with 262 domed pistons that regularly turned 7000+ RPM.

    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    The stock compression height is 1.619 (41.122mm) which leaves a difference of .079 (2.006mm)
    The stock pin diameter is .905 (23mm) which is a difference of .022 (.546mm)

    So, if I deck the block by .079 (2.006mm) and enlarge the small end on the connecting rod by .022 (.546mm) then I should be able to use the Chevy 305 pistons.

    Is this correct?
    That's a lot to come off the block but I believe it's doable. Cam timing and possibly timing chain tension will need to be addressed.

    Harold

  10. #28
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hrcollinsjr View Post
    There have been many Opel engines built with Chevy pistons and wristpins. The old 265 piston was a common 2L upgrade. I built an engine with 262 domed pistons that regularly turned 7000+ RPM.

    That's a lot to come off the block but I believe it's doable. Cam timing and possibly timing chain tension will need to be addressed.

    Harold
    I'm not terribly concerned about the cam timing as it can be mitigated with a few math calculations and a drill press.

    I just did some measurements and, to my delight, the math is pretty easy on the cam timing.
    The Opel CIH has a fairly unique situation with the timing gear. It seems that the effective circumference is 356mm. Close enough to 360 to make it a straight up swap on the numbers that 1mm of deck height translates to 1 degree on cam timing. So if I deck the block 2mm I need to advance the timing gear 2 degrees. Yes, it's a little off so I might as well make it 2.5 degrees. But, seriously, if I'm going to worry about a percentage of a degree then I wouldn't be driving an Opel. And with a percentage of a degree, you might as well worry about a percentage of an octane in your gas.


    I can pick up a new chain to help eliminate chain issues. The engine has newish (less than .020 wear) chain tensioners so I won't have to replace those.

    I just looked at the specs on the 265 pistons. It appears I'd need to go to .030 oversize pistons to get them in the current block. With flat top pistons I'd be able to save .010 on the block shave. Not terribly significant but still a number to consider.
    Last edited by First opel 1981; 05-26-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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  11. #29
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    OK, I have been doing some calculating and this is a possible direction.

    RallyBob, feel free to chime in.


    I could purchase some chevy 305 pistons 0.020 oversized which gets me outside of the present bore but keeps me inside my gaskets (96.5mm)

    The Chevy pistons have a compression height of 1.540 (39.116mm)
    They have a pin diameter of 0.927 (23.546mm)

    The stock compression height is 1.619 (41.122mm) which leaves a difference of .079 (2.006mm)
    The stock pin diameter is .905 (23mm) which is a difference of .022 (.546mm)

    So, if I deck the block by .079 (2.006mm) and enlarge the small end on the connecting rod by .022 (.546mm) then I should be able to use the Chevy 305 pistons.

    Is this correct?

    I was looking at this option a few years ago using .060" over 305 pistons in a 2.2 block. I eventually settled upon a different combo with shorter 305 pistons and 5.4" connecting rods, but that's another story altogether.

    While .080" is a lot to mill off the block it's no worse than taking .080" off the head....which I've done many times before.

    You are at least aware of the pitfalls, and having a new chain and fresh guide rails is a good start. Cam timing would need to be corrected, but that's no biggie.

    My biggest concern is still chain slack, so I would put a lash cap on the end of the hydraulic tensioner. I used to do this all the time for race engines with heavily milled heads. I recall using one that was .100" thick.

    Just do yourself a favor and measure the thickness of your cylinder head. As you approach .100" total milling you MAY have to shorten your head bolts a bit. If they bottom out in the block deck before preload is reached you'll blow gaskets left and right even though the bolts "feel" tight.

    Bob
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-26-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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  12. #30
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    The Opel CIH has a fairly unique situation with the timing gear.
    Unbelievable
    How is this ?
    Please tell us more.

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

  13. #31
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrench459 View Post
    Unbelievable
    How is this ?
    Please tell us more.
    I already did.
    Do you need me to make a chart or graph to explain it?

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  14. #32
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    Your Oversize 2.2 pistons, Sir!

    These pistons are slightly over 95mm. Measured to 95.3 to be more precise.
    The skirts measure the same.

    BUT, I no longer seem to need a 2.2 piston. I seem to need an OVERSIZE 2.2 piston.

    Hello First Opel- If it will help you- I have a set of used 2.2 pistons, I think they are Standard Size- have not miked them. I also have 3 pistons, .50mm oversize- I wonder if this is what yours were and have collapsed...? If I can help, let me know and I'll dig them up. Very cheap= I have no plans to use them. Ernie Bello
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  15. #33
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bello View Post
    Hello First Opel- If it will help you- I have a set of used 2.2 pistons, I think they are Standard Size- have not miked them. I also have 3 pistons, .50mm oversize- I wonder if this is what yours were and have collapsed...? If I can help, let me know and I'll dig them up. Very cheap= I have no plans to use them. Ernie Bello
    Thanks for the offer, Ernie. I sent you a PM.

    Meanwhile, I took the crank in today to be ground. I should have it back by Monday, he said. The good news is I can probably get away with just another .010 grind, taking it to .030 but if it has to go to .040 I can still get bearings. So the crank appears to be safe.
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  16. #34
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    I have no qualm going undersized on the crank.
    There is less bgr. spd. with a smaller journal.
    The trick is to get the fillet correct...without the proper fillet the crankshaft will be weaker.

    Last edited by wrench459; 05-27-2014 at 08:37 PM.
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  17. #35
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    I actually did a side by side comparison between the 1.9 and 2.2 crank and it seems like there's some metal missing from the 2.2 casting that could cause a 2.2 to be a weaker crank than the 1.9
    And the spot you show is about where one would snap if pushed too hard.

    The point is I would rather go for extreme HP from a 1.9 than to push the same limits on a 2.2
    Opel GTs are not GM products
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    Humans are not an endangered species!
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  18. #36
    Project 1450 supporter... Site Supporter My location RallyBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    I actually did a side by side comparison between the 1.9 and 2.2 crank and it seems like there's some metal missing from the 2.2 casting that could cause a 2.2 to be a weaker crank than the 1.9
    And the spot you show is about where one would snap if pushed too hard.

    The point is I would rather go for extreme HP from a 1.9 than to push the same limits on a 2.2
    Trust me, the 2.2 crank will take whatever you throw at it! It's about 2-2.25 lbs lighter than a 1.9 crank, but a 1.9 crank is virtually bombproof.

    Plenty of guys with turbo CIH 2.2's pushing 400-500 thru a stock crank.

    I've spun one over 10,000 rpms. Just need good flywheel bolts! And stronger rods/pistons.

    The 2.2 crank is my favorite overall. 2.4 cranks weigh about 43 lbs!!

    Oh, and they're all forgings, not castings.
    Last edited by RallyBob; 05-28-2014 at 05:19 PM. Reason: More info
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  19. #37
    Senior Member nickincrete's Avatar
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    here is a set of nos oversize pistons and rings
    they are 8.0 to 1 cr so that may be a problem

    Ascona Manta Bedford CF 2.0N Piston & Ring Set, New | eBay


    this guy has 2 cranks but if you read his add it says he has pistons as well
    Opel Manta / Carlton Crankshafts, one 2.0lt, one 2.2lt | eBay

    if you are going for a rebore i found using a cheap 1.9 block with either used 2.0 or 2.2 standard size pistons with new rings, these standard sizes come up v cheap on ebay. uk

  20. #38
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickincrete View Post
    here is a set of nos oversize pistons and rings
    they are 8.0 to 1 cr so that may be a problem

    Ascona Manta Bedford CF 2.0N Piston & Ring Set, New | eBay


    this guy has 2 cranks but if you read his add it says he has pistons as well
    Opel Manta / Carlton Crankshafts, one 2.0lt, one 2.2lt | eBay

    if you are going for a rebore i found using a cheap 1.9 block with either used 2.0 or 2.2 standard size pistons with new rings, these standard sizes come up v cheap on ebay. uk
    Good info to have.

    Right now the plan is to take my spare 1,9 block and bore it to the correct size for some standard 2.2 pistons. Then rebuild the 2.2 from the ground up.

    I may build another 2.2 in the future so I will keep that info in my head. The only problem I'd have is getting someone to ship the heavy stuff across the pond.
    Opel GTs are not GM products
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    Humans are not an endangered species!
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  21. #39
    Über Genius My location First opel 1981's Avatar
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    A couple things happened today.

    I received pistons in the mail. A (mis)matched set. The only (mis) was that the ages of the pistons are different. They all come in within .002 of each other.

    Also, the machine shop called and my crank was on the lathe. Then they realized they had no numbers for the 2.2 as it's not normally found in the U.S.
    A quick call to OGTS got me the info I needed. Thank you to them!

    The machine shop said I will need to go to .030/.030 so not a huge deal there. Still waiting on the final numbers before I get bearings.

    I should get the crank back thursday AM because I can't get to the machine shop before then.
    I will drop off the new (used) pistons to have the cast rods removed from the new pistons and the forged rods removed from my donor pistons (that were given to me last summer).
    I will bring everything home and weigh match them before having the forged rods put back on the new (to me) pistons.
    Last edited by hrcollinsjr; 06-04-2014 at 06:38 AM.
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    Humans are not an endangered species!
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  22. #40
    7,000 Post Club My location wrench459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First opel 1981 View Post
    ...
    Also, the machine shop called and my crank was on the lathe. Then they realized they had no numbers for the 2.2 as it's not normally found in the U.S.
    A quick call to OGTS got me the info I needed. Thank you to them!

    The machine shop said I will need to go to .030/.030 so not a huge deal there. Still waiting on the final numbers before I get bearings.

    I've never had to put a crank on the grinder just to measure the journals

    Si vis pacem, para bellum "If you want peace, prepare for war"

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