monza 3l moter same as a 2.8 commodore moter???

[muscle_car_man]

hey

any information would be great regarding this matter!i have just recently purchased an opel commodore,4 door,2.8 injected 4 speed manual.i was just wondering if these motors are the same or (how similar)they are to my 86 opel monza 3l.last question,are the 4 speed manuals any good?

cheers michael

[heimue]

The straight-6 CIH Opel motors are all the same family, from the 2.6 to 3.0 Liter versions. They only have a different displacement, but I don't know whether its bore or stroke differences. They are mechanically interchangeable (motor mounts, clutch, gear box...).
This excludes the later 3.0 DOHC motors (Senator B/Omega A), they have a different block/head.
The manual transmissions are ok if your motor is close to stock. I wrecked two automatic transmissions on straight-6 motors back in Germany, but never had any trouble with a 4-speed conversion in an Admiral. Of course, a 5-speed Getrag 265 is unbeatable in this league.

Dieter

[GoinManta]

Going completely off memory.. So forgive me if I am wrong.

Main difference in 2.6 to 3.0L should be in the bore.. Dont know a lot about 2.6L but believe if its like a 1.7L then the head camber will be smaller and bore the same or it could be like a 1.9L head on a 1.5L Block and the head is the same the bore slighly smaller. But the 2.8L and 3.0L are about the same head.. different bore.

The 2.8L was basically a carb motor. Although some 2.8L Commodore B GSE models used early L-Jet Bosch injection in the mid- 70s. Came with both single carb 2 barrel Zenith Carbs (Commodore B GS), Dual Solex Setups (Commodore A GSE and Manta TE2800) and possibly other combinations (Not familar with NON-Commodore applications) if memory serves.

The 3.0L (12V) used Bosch early L-Jet injection to 1984 and the later (Non-resistance injectors) L-jet to about 1989.

The 3.0L (24V) used Bosch K-Jet (Senator and Monza GSE Motor I believe)

The 3.9L (Bitter motor) was a stroked 2.8L.. yes a stroked 2.8L not 3.0L, not sure why but thats what I was told. I think its because they bored the 2.8L Instead of the 3.0L because of smaller water passages allowed larger boring or something. It used the later L-Jet and had unique pistons, crank and rods.

Thats what I remember from when I had my Bitter and rebuilt its motors.

[GTJIM]

Answer from someone in the same city as you!

The difference between the 2.8L and 3.0L six-cylinder motors is much the same as between 1.9L and 2.0L four-cylinder motors (1.9L x 1 1/2 = 2.8L and 2.0L X 1 1/2 = 3.0L). The bore size only is difference - 2.8L is 92mm bore and 3.0L is 95mm bore. The outer dimensions of the cylinder block are identical and everything bolts up - the only differences can be the intake ports position - like 1.9/2.0L motors and 2.2/2.4L - depending if one motor is 1983 or earlier and the other 1984 or later.
You can probably bore a 2.8L out to 3.0L just by using 3.0L pistons - or Chevy pistons ... just like the 1.9L four-cylinder motor ... and fit Chevy valves into the head ... the same.

1.9L four-cylinder pistons can be used too - they are 93mm STD - so are a nice 'first oversize' for the 2.8L six ...

[heimue]

Originally Posted by GoinManta The 3.0L (24V) used Bosch K-Jet (Senator and Monza GSE Motor I believe)

The 3.0-24V (introduced in 1989) was not available in the Monza or the Senator A (1983-87), only in the later Senator B (1987-94).

The largest engine in the Monza was the 3.0-12V with 180HP (depending on the market, the HP number might be slightly different).

Dieter

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Answer from someone in the same city as you! The difference between the 2.8L and 3.0L six-cylinder motors is much the same as between 1.9L and 2.0L four-cylinder motors (1.9L x 1 1/2 = 2.8L and 2.0L X 1 1/2 = 3.0L). The bore size only is difference - 2.8L is 93mm bore and 3.0L is 95mm bore. The outer dimensions of the cylinder block are identical and everything bolts up - the only differences can be the intake ports position - like 1.9/2.0L motors and 2.2/2.4L - depending if one motor is 1983 or earlier and the other 1984 or later. You can probably bore a 2.8L out to 3.0L just by using 3.0L pistons - or Chevy pistons ... just like the 1.9L four-cylinder motor ... and fit Chevy valves into the head ... the same.

Opel 6-cyl CIH: 2.6 (88.8mm x 69.8mm = 2594cc) ; 2.8 (92mm x 69.8mm = 2784cc) ; 3.0 (95mm x 69.8mm = 2969cc) ; Bitter/Mantzel 3.9 (95mm x 90.5mm = 3849cc)

Opel 4-cyl CIH: 1.5 (82.5mm x 69.8mm = 1492cc) ; 1.7 (88mm x 69.8mm = 1698cc) ; 1.9 (93mm x 69.8mm = 1897cc) ; 2.0 (95mm x 69.8mm = 1979cc) ; 2.2 (95mm x 77.5mm = 2197cc) ; 2.4 (95mm x 85mm = 2410cc)

. . . all Opel CIH (4/6) engines have used common bores of 82.5mm (1.5), 88mm (1.7/2.6), 92mm (2.8), 93mm (1.9) and 95mm (2.0/2.2/2.4) respectively and all CIH (4/6) engines, except the 2.2 (77.5mm), 2.4 (85mm) and the Bitter/Mantzel 3.9 (90.5mm), used a stroke of 69.8mm.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by tekenaar Opel 6-cyl CIH: 2.6 (88mm x 69.8mm = 2547cc) ; 2.8 (92mm x 69.8mm = 2784cc) ; 3.0 (95mm x 69.8mm = 2969cc) ; Bitter/Mantzel 3.9 (95mm x 90.5mm = 3849cc)

Otto, what about the 2.5 litre straight six? I believe that was in the early Commodores and available w/twin carbs.

[2 Fast 4 U]

2.2 litre straight six 82.5 x 69.8 = 2239 cc
2.5 litre straight six 87.0 x 69.8 = 2490 cc
2.6 litre straight six 88.8 x 69.8 = 2594 cc [sorry Otto]

1.6 litre straight four 85.0 x 69.8 = 1584 cc

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U 2.2 litre straight six 82.5 x 69.8 = 2239 cc 2.5 litre straight six 87.0 x 69.8 = 2490 cc 2.6 litre straight six 88.8 x 69.8 = 2594 cc [sorry Otto] 1.6 litre straight four 85.0 x 69.8 = 1584 cc

Thanks!

Now we need to put all these bore/stroke/displacements and HP figures onto one page for future reference, and then lock it out!

[spamseptictank]

This may be off-topic, and I may incur the wrath of the mods, but I would like to complement you guys on your knowledge of Opels.
I continue to marvel at the wealth of knowledge contained in your heads and others who have posted here. I rarely need to ask questions. I find out all I need to know by reading your posts.
Thank you for sharing and helping.
Thanks to Gary, too, for doing this site.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by muscle_car_man hey any information would be great regarding this matter!i have just recently purchased an opel commodore,4 door,2.8 injected 4 speed manual.i was just wondering if these motors are the same or (how similar)they are to my 86 opel monza 3l.last question,are the 4 speed manuals any good? cheers michael

well if your car is like one of mine (Commodore B GSE),
this 28E CIH is quite of a weird bird among the CIH family:
bore is only 92mm this makes a PITA to find parts like rings,
injection is the old type D Jetronic (nothing to do with the later L/LE),
the head is very special with injectors directly mounted on the head,
so inlet ports are a few mm lower than a casual 1.9/2.0 head,
manifold gasket is therefore specific.
I just love this car (I have 5 of these),
but consider to collect lots of parts to be on the safe side,
or convert it to a complete 30E setup (very easy).
HTH,
Hiro

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by GTJIM Answer from someone in the same city as you! The difference between the 2.8L and 3.0L six-cylinder motors is much the same as between 1.9L and 2.0L four-cylinder motors (1.9L x 1 1/2 = 2.8L and 2.0L X 1 1/2 = 3.0L). The bore size only is difference - 2.8L is 93mm bore and 3.0L is 95mm bore. The outer dimensions of the cylinder block are identical and everything bolts up - the only differences can be the intake ports position - like 1.9/2.0L motors and 2.2/2.4L - depending if one motor is 1983 or earlier and the other 1984 or later. You can probably bore a 2.8L out to 3.0L just by using 3.0L pistons - or Chevy pistons ... just like the 1.9L four-cylinder motor ... and fit Chevy valves into the head ... the same.

the 28E is very different from the carb versions 28S/28H:
head, camshaft, exhaust valves, pistons are specific.
IMO the weirdest part of the 28E is the distributor:
it contains a second set of twin points that triggers the injectors,
better not have any problem with this distributor,
because it's very rare even on Ebay.de!
HTH,
Hiro

more infos on the D Jet here (french, sorry!):
DJectronic

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U 2.2 litre straight six 82.5 x 69.8 = 2239 cc 2.5 litre straight six 87.0 x 69.8 = 2490 cc 2.6 litre straight six 88.8 x 69.8 = 2594 cc [sorry Otto] 1.6 litre straight four 85.0 x 69.8 = 1584 cc

I found an other engine:

3.6 litre straight six 95.0 x 85.0 = 3590 cc

[GoinManta]

Originally Posted by Hiro well if your car is like one of mine (Commodore B GSE)...... but consider to collect lots of parts to be on the safe side, or convert it to a complete 30E setup (very easy). HTH, Hiro

You wouldnt be able to find a nicely restored GSE Commodore B for sale in the area.. ? One of the cars I was thinking of finding in europe to import.

Also FYI.. Chuck Jordan who designed the Commodore B Is looking for one to import as well.. I had one, but Todd at Opels Unlimited has it now and its in really bad shape. Irony is that I brought it to California to save it because I couldnt find parts at the time and didnt want it to rust.

[muscle_car_man]

thanx a lot for all your help and extreme knowledge of opels, i'll keep you guys informed of how my progress goes!
cheers

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U 2.2 litre straight six 82.5 x 69.8 = 2239 cc 2.5 litre straight six 87.0 x 69.8 = 2490 cc 2.6 litre straight six 88.8 x 69.8 = 2594 cc [sorry Otto] 1.6 litre straight four 85.0 x 69.8 = 1584 cc

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U I found an other engine: 3.6 litre straight six 95.0 x 85.0 = 3590 cc

. . . sure about that, Erick? Engine displacement listing convention of car manufacturers lists liter (litre) displacement breaks in 100cc increments from 00-99cc, i.e. 2200-2299cc is a 2.3L, not a 2.2L.

I know this is used for both displacement taxing purposes and displacement limits in racing classes . . .

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U 2.2 litre straight six 82.5 x 69.8 = 2239 cc 2.5 litre straight six 87.0 x 69.8 = 2490 cc 2.6 litre straight six 88.8 x 69.8 = 2594 cc [sorry Otto] 1.6 litre straight four 85.0 x 69.8 = 1584 cc

. . . that made me curious about my 83mm bore listing for the '68 only, 1.5 4-cyl engine . . . oops, it's actually 82.5mm like your 2.3 (sorry) straight six above.

[baz]

there are a few older euro engines with a listing lower than there cc's would suggest Otto

bmw had a 3210cc "3.2L" at one time

the cut off is normally the 50cc mark

the 1256 opel / vauxhall engine being a "1300" here

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by GoinManta You wouldnt be able to find a nicely restored GSE Commodore B for sale in the area.. ? One of the cars I was thinking of finding in europe to import. Also FYI.. Chuck Jordan who designed the Commodore B Is looking for one to import as well.. I had one, but Todd at Opels Unlimited has it now and its in really bad shape. Irony is that I brought it to California to save it because I couldnt find parts at the time and didnt want it to rust.

not so easy to find even in Germany I guess,
I would say you could find 5 nice Manta/Ascona/Kadett for 1 comparable Commo,
also much less cheap replacement parts available for restoring/welding the shell.
so finally by the time you start working on a CommoB you will be finished with 3-4 Manta/Ascona/Kadett,
it's the reason why I'm a CommoB fan racing a KadettC!
Hiro

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . that made me curious about my 83mm bore listing for the '68 only, 1.5 4-cyl engine . . . oops, it's actually 82.5mm like your 2.3 (sorry) straight six above.

Originally Posted by baz there are a few older euro engines with a listing lower than there cc's would suggest Otto bmw had a 3210cc "3.2L" at one time the cut off is normally the 50cc mark the 1256 opel / vauxhall engine being a "1300" here

Thank you Baz, Otto, I got these figures from a Opel site [don't remember the name] I have a list of all the engines Opel used from the 1.0 up to the 2.4 four cylinder, 2.2 - 4.0 straight six, 2.5 - 3.5 V6 and the 4.6 - 5.7 V8
OHV, OHC, CIH, DOHC and the diesel engines

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . sure about that, Erick? Engine displacement listing convention of car manufacturers lists liter (litre) displacement breaks in 100cc increments from 00-99cc, i.e. 2200-2299cc is a 2.3L, not a 2.2L. I know this is used for both displacement taxing purposes and displacement limits in racing classes . . .

I also have 2239cc for the 6 cyl 2.2 CIH
Hiro

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by baz there are a few older euro engines with a listing lower than there cc's would suggest Otto bmw had a 3210cc "3.2L" at one time the cut off is normally the 50cc mark the 1256 opel / vauxhall engine being a "1300" here

. . . that may very well be true, baz, but even in GB, this engine would be immediately DQ'ed if entered in any 3.2 racing class anywhere in the world.

I know for a fact, that all engine displacement taxing was based on the '00-99cc' basis for taxing category - i.e. "up to 1.8 liter", "up to 2.0 liter", etc. - and that all the manufacturers made sure not to exceed those limits to avoid paying the next higher tax rate for "1cc over"!

Perhaps those taxes have gone by the wayside over the years and are no longer of much concern in the EEC and GB, but the "up to X litre (00-99cc)" specification is still the determining factor in racing.

That said, even Opel's last 2.4 CIH engines (95mm x 85mm) have an actual displacement of 2410cc . . . just don't try racing them in any 2.4 engine class!

[RallyBob]

General consensus is to round it up to 2.3 litres if you have, say, 2251 cc's. But if it's 2249 cc's you'd round it down to 2.2 litres.

My own homebuilt '2.4 stroker' designation is in fact 2372.98 cc's (95.6564 mm x 82.55 mm). But I rounded it up to 2.4 litres.

Opel's factory 2.4 is 2409.99 cc's, but they still call it a 2.4, not a 2.5!

[tekenaar]

OK, I've begun formulating an HTML matrix for all Opel CIH engines produced over the years to use as a reference tool. As Bob suggested, it would be nice to know all the variations for each engine type produced, S/E/H/etc. and all ancilliary details used in each type (yrs. manufactured, power, torque, CR, carb(s)/FI (type), unique specs, valve sizes, etc.), so that the matrix can be used as a "one look" overview for each displacement and type . . .

[2 Fast 4 U]

Originally Posted by tekenaar OK, I've begun formulating an HTML matrix for all Opel CIH engines produced over the years to use as a reference tool. As Bob suggested, it would be nice to know all the variations for each engine type produced, S/E/H/etc. and all ancilliary details used in each type (yrs. manufactured, power, torque, CR, carb(s)/FI (type), unique specs, valve sizes, etc.), so that the matrix can be used as a "one look" overview for each displacement and type . . .

Originally Posted by 2 Fast 4 U I have a list of all the engines Opel used from the 1.0 up to the 2.4 four cylinder, 2.2 - 4.0 straight six, 2.5 - 3.5 V6 and the 4.6 - 5.7 V8 OHV, OHC, CIH, DOHC and the diesel engines

And It's in German