CNC Header Flanges - Page 11

tomking · 07-08-2009

Refund delivered! Thanks Gumby.

markandson · 07-08-2009

Originally Posted by neuropel

I live in west central PA, and I've found machine work in this area to be very reasonable compared to other parts of the country (and even other parts of PA). There are a couple of water jet places near me that I could get quotes, if anyone is interested. I would imagine the price would be very competitive with anyone else, at least if my previous experience is any indication. The catch is that they need a .DXF file for the part. If anyone has the .DXF file they could email me, shoot me a PM and I'll get the ball rolling with some quotes. If there's adequate interest, I'd be willing to have a run of them made.

Todd K.

AutoCad can produce .dxf files, if you need it I can send you the file, why don't you test the water first.

neuropel · 07-08-2009

Jeff, PM sent...

markandson · 07-08-2009

For those of you who would like to know, these are the dimensions

neuropel · 07-09-2009

I can have these made in mild steel for about $45 each, and about $70 for 304 stainless steel. They'd be cut by water jet.

So, there's the estimate...

Todd

RallyBob · 07-09-2009

Originally Posted by neuropel

I can have these made in mild steel for about $45 each, and about $70 for 304 stainless steel. They'd be cut by water jet.

So, there's the estimate...

Todd

In what thickness though?

If it's 1/2" thick, then it has to be spot-faced after the fact down to 12 mm (.472") at the bolt holes. Or if it's 3/8" thick it will need to have half-washers welded to the flange to match the intake manifold thickness. Either option adds $$$ to the final price. Just pointing out there's another step involved...

neuropel · 07-09-2009

The quote was only for the piece in the drawing from Jeff, in 1/2". How large an area needs to be spot faced around each hole?

Todd

Tru-Craft · 07-09-2009

But, I thought Gumby was almost finished with the flanges?
The last I heard, he was going to start shipping them out.
What happened?
Lyle

neuropel · 07-09-2009

Lyle,

I was just looking into other options if they're needed. No idea on the status of Gumby's flanges...

Todd

RallyBob · 07-09-2009

Originally Posted by neuropel

The quote was only for the piece in the drawing from Jeff, in 1/2". How large an area needs to be spot faced around each hole?

Todd

A little bigger than the washer diameter is fine.

RallyBob · 07-09-2009

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft

But, I thought Gumby was almost finished with the flanges?
The last I heard, he was going to start shipping them out.
What happened?
Lyle

I'm still waiting on a couple of these in stainless. I'd prefer them CNC'd rather than water-jet for my father's car, if only for appearance's sake. So as long as he's still intent on making them I still have an order in for them.

Paul · 07-09-2009

Bob
On most other headers/flanges, I've noticed that there is a raised area of hard(er) metal, usually welded and gound flat. I suppose this gives a better seal since this matches with the metal compression gasket material??? What are you thoughts on the need for this. With all the talk of flanges, all of the designes are just flat on the side that contacts with the gasket....

RallyBob · 07-09-2009

Originally Posted by Paul

Bob
On most other headers/flanges, I've noticed that there is a raised area of hard(er) metal, usually welded and gound flat. I suppose this gives a better seal since this matches with the metal compression gasket material??? What are you thoughts on the need for this. With all the talk of flanges, all of the designes are just flat on the side that contacts with the gasket....

The flanges on mass produced headers are seldom flat due to warpage from welding, so adding an area of raised material here increases the pressure on the gasket due to the smaller contact patch (however in reality this welded area is seldom flat and they leak anyway!). Often this weld is already serving another purpose...it is frequently the actual connective weld to the header tubes.

On my friend's Camaro headers I modified, this welded area was uneven and inconsistant. 3 out of 4 cylinders leaked on each head! I spent about 10 minutes per side on a wide-belt sander getting them reasonably flat.

BTW, you'll notice the OEM's never use this method, they always utilize a flat flange, no 'built-up' areas around the gasket.

Gumby · 07-09-2009

Wow a lot of discussion going on while I've been absent, not suprising considering all the delays. Yes the parts are still being made. I've been preoccupied with moving and getting ready for this deployment overseas. After Friday I'm off from my day job so that leaves me all next week to finish what's left. I've already gotten the mild steel surfaced on the head side to a good surface finish now they just need to be taken down to the correct thickness, coming out to be about .002" parallel between the sides over 17", so reasonably accurate.

opelbits · 07-09-2009

Hey-

I'm still in for one or two (if there is enough after orders are filled).

Tru-Craft · 07-10-2009

Originally Posted by Gumby

Wow a lot of discussion going on while I've been absent, not suprising considering all the delays. Yes the parts are still being made. I've been preoccupied with moving and getting ready for this deployment overseas. After Friday I'm off from my day job so that leaves me all next week to finish what's left. I've already gotten the mild steel surfaced on the head side to a good surface finish now they just need to be taken down to the correct thickness, coming out to be about .002" parallel between the sides over 17", so reasonably accurate.

Hi Gumby, what is your machining plan for the thickness?
*Mill the entire surface.
*Mill c. bores for the washers.
(.002 over 17" is great)

Glad you got your machine going. Most people don't know how expensive it is to maintain these CNC machines. Your CNC shop rate has to include projected repairs.
I have 2 in need of repair now!
With the economy and manufacturing so bad right now, will wait until things get better before fixing anything.
Lyle

neuropel · 07-10-2009

Well, for the sake of completeness, and perhaps for future reference, spot facing the 1/2" flanges will add approximately $10 to the cost.

Todd

GTJIM · 07-11-2009

With all 'real' engineering jobs (and especially Opel projects!).

The First Law of Engineering:

"Everything always takes longer ... and costs more"

Gumby · 07-11-2009

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft

Hi Gumby, what is your machining plan for the thickness?
*Mill the entire surface.
*Mill c. bores for the washers.
(.002 over 17" is great)

Glad you got your machine going. Most people don't know how expensive it is to maintain these CNC machines. Your CNC shop rate has to include projected repairs.
I have 2 in need of repair now!
With the economy and manufacturing so bad right now, will wait until things get better before fixing anything.
Lyle

I'm actually pretty surprised the machine would hold .002 over that length. I agree with the rate needing to include wear on the tools. If I were making these for profit in such a small batch I would have charged a lot differently.

Originally I was going to face the entire surface down to required thickness but I've revised that idea to just take it down at the bolt locations. No point in wearing out expensive inserts on the SS flanges. Basically both sides get faced close to the required thickness then only the bolt locations get "final" machining to the required .472".

Tru-Craft · 08-20-2009

Gumby, did you finish the steel flanges yet?
My old header has a hole in one of the primary tubes, thought the car was noisier!
Will try to patch it on the car for a quick fix, I think I can reach it.
But, I want to start making a new header.
Let me know.
Thanks
Lyle

RallyBob · 08-21-2009

I'm in the same boat Lyle, would love to start working on a new header design. I finally have all the schedule-10 304L stainless tubes and the stainless T3 turbo flange for my father's GT...just need the header flange!

Tru-Craft · 08-26-2009

Got the Header Flange today!

Very, very nice machining work!
The part is flat, parrallel (.473 +- .001) and nice surface finish, and being .473thick it will warp very little and seal perfect.
Port area is sharp, and radius in corners will match head ports, plus the web between the 2-3 exhaust is strong because it's machined.
It's so nice I don't want to weld on it.
Thanks Gumby!
Lyle

GoinManta · 08-26-2009

I used Megs Exhaust Warehouse-Exhaust Systems, Exhaust Collectors, Components, Exhaust Conical, Mufflers, Exhaust Tips to get my parts for my LK5 and designed the flange with them. Great job.. and great prices on their collectors and header pipes to make your headers.

Tru-Craft · 08-27-2009

Charles thanks for the info, that is a great web site.
Will do header design search before I get started.
Lyle

Gumby · 08-28-2009

Tru-Craft: I cut those at around 2500rpm and almost 50ipm. I finished that flange you got the day I boarded a plane to go to Germany. It was a nightmare:There was some issue with my orders and at the last moment they finalized them and decided to send me after telling me I wasn't going to be deployed. My wife was actually the one who sent it to you. Not all of them were finished before I had to leave. I couldn't get the program into the controller before I ran out of time (it had to be hand keyed in @ more than a thousand lines). So for those who don't receive anything or ordered the SS flanges expect a check in the mail or a refund via paypal (if that is how you originally paid).

The program (g-code), setup, and tooling is all ready to roll it is just a matter of being there to actually do it. Once I get leave in a few months I'll be back to finish them. In the meantime I'm going to see if there is a shop hurting in the area that will take the SS flanges and machine out the shape.

07-08-2009	#251 (permalink)
tomking tomking Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: SW Missouri Posts: 1,287	Refund delivered! Thanks Gumby. __________________ TMK

07-08-2009	#253 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,787	Jeff, PM sent... __________________ "In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln ________________ 1972 GT 2.4L 1974 Manta GT/E 2.2L 1973 Manta Rallye 2.5L

07-09-2009	#255 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,787	I can have these made in mild steel for about $45 each, and about $70 for 304 stainless steel. They'd be cut by water jet. So, there's the estimate... Todd __________________ "In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln ________________ 1972 GT 2.4L 1974 Manta GT/E 2.2L 1973 Manta Rallye 2.5L

07-09-2009	#257 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,787	The quote was only for the piece in the drawing from Jeff, in 1/2". How large an area needs to be spot faced around each hole? Todd __________________ "In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln ________________ 1972 GT 2.4L 1974 Manta GT/E 2.2L 1973 Manta Rallye 2.5L

07-09-2009	#259 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,787	Lyle, I was just looking into other options if they're needed. No idea on the status of Gumby's flanges... Todd __________________ "In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln ________________ 1972 GT 2.4L 1974 Manta GT/E 2.2L 1973 Manta Rallye 2.5L

07-09-2009	#258 (permalink)
Tru-Craft 1970-GT Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 1,237 Provided Answers: 2	But, I thought Gumby was almost finished with the flanges? The last I heard, he was going to start shipping them out. What happened? Lyle

07-09-2009	#262 (permalink)
Paul Member 1000 Post Club Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ft Smith, Arkansas Posts: 1,481 Provided Answers: 1	Bob On most other headers/flanges, I've noticed that there is a raised area of hard(er) metal, usually welded and gound flat. I suppose this gives a better seal since this matches with the metal compression gasket material??? What are you thoughts on the need for this. With all the talk of flanges, all of the designes are just flat on the side that contacts with the gasket.... __________________ Paul

07-09-2009	#264 (permalink)
Gumby Supercharged 2.4 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 619	Wow a lot of discussion going on while I've been absent, not suprising considering all the delays. Yes the parts are still being made. I've been preoccupied with moving and getting ready for this deployment overseas. After Friday I'm off from my day job so that leaves me all next week to finish what's left. I've already gotten the mild steel surfaced on the head side to a good surface finish now they just need to be taken down to the correct thickness, coming out to be about .002" parallel between the sides over 17", so reasonably accurate. __________________ 1972 Opel GT: 2.4, big brakes, efi - inprogress

07-09-2009	#265 (permalink)
opelbits Detritus Maximus Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: St. Louis MO Posts: 1,160 Provided Answers: 1	Hey- I'm still in for one or two (if there is enough after orders are filled). __________________ "No, it's not fiberglass." "No, the motor is not in the back." "No, your friend in high school did not 'peg' his speedometer."

07-10-2009	#267 (permalink)
neuropel Rice Cooker Join Date: May 2002 Location: Spring Church, PA Posts: 1,787	Well, for the sake of completeness, and perhaps for future reference, spot facing the 1/2" flanges will add approximately $10 to the cost. Todd __________________ "In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." -Abraham Lincoln ________________ 1972 GT 2.4L 1974 Manta GT/E 2.2L 1973 Manta Rallye 2.5L

07-11-2009	#268 (permalink)
GTJIM Old Opeler Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,686 Provided Answers: 12	Remember! With all 'real' engineering jobs (and especially Opel projects!). The First Law of Engineering: *"Everything always takes longer ... and costs more"* __________________ GTJim Opel Owner since last Century! Copyright © 2000-2009 J D Henry All Rights Reserved

08-20-2009	#270 (permalink)
Tru-Craft 1970-GT Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 1,237 Provided Answers: 2	Gumby, did you finish the steel flanges yet? My old header has a hole in one of the primary tubes, thought the car was noisier! Will try to patch it on the car for a quick fix, I think I can reach it. But, I want to start making a new header. Let me know. Thanks Lyle

08-26-2009	#272 (permalink)
Tru-Craft 1970-GT Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 1,237 Provided Answers: 2	Got the Header Flange today! Very, very nice machining work! The part is flat, parrallel (.473 +- .001) and nice surface finish, and being .473thick it will warp very little and seal perfect. Port area is sharp, and radius in corners will match head ports, plus the web between the 2-3 exhaust is strong because it's machined. It's so nice I don't want to weld on it. Thanks Gumby! Lyle

08-26-2009	#273 (permalink)
GoinManta Opelitis since 1984 Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Midlothian, VA Posts: 2,213 Real Name: Charles Goin Provided Answers: 3	I used Megs Exhaust Warehouse-Exhaust Systems, Exhaust Collectors, Components, Exhaust Conical, Mufflers, Exhaust Tips to get my parts for my LK5 and designed the flange with them. Great job.. and great prices on their collectors and header pipes to make your headers. __________________ CURRENT '06 Pontiac GTO '71 Opel Kadett 4 Door 36D (w/ Opel Parts & Service 2.0L) '74 Opel Manta (Bens Manta) '74 Opel Manta (w/ LK5 transplant) Past '73 Opel Manta (Blue Max) '75 Opel Manta (Yellow) '85 Bitter SC '73 Opel Commodore B GS '73 Opel GT (w/ Vinyl Roof) At least 16 or So Parts Opels

08-27-2009	#274 (permalink)
Tru-Craft 1970-GT Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 1,237 Provided Answers: 2	Charles thanks for the info, that is a great web site. Will do header design search before I get started. Lyle

08-28-2009	#275 (permalink)
Gumby Supercharged 2.4 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 619	Tru-Craft: I cut those at around 2500rpm and almost 50ipm. I finished that flange you got the day I boarded a plane to go to Germany. It was a nightmare:There was some issue with my orders and at the last moment they finalized them and decided to send me after telling me I wasn't going to be deployed. My wife was actually the one who sent it to you. Not all of them were finished before I had to leave. I couldn't get the program into the controller before I ran out of time (it had to be hand keyed in @ more than a thousand lines). So for those who don't receive anything or ordered the SS flanges expect a check in the mail or a refund via paypal (if that is how you originally paid). The program (g-code), setup, and tooling is all ready to roll it is just a matter of being there to actually do it. Once I get leave in a few months I'll be back to finish them. In the meantime I'm going to see if there is a shop hurting in the area that will take the SS flanges and machine out the shape. __________________ 1972 Opel GT: 2.4, big brakes, efi - inprogress

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