CNC Header Flanges

[jordan]

I would be in for one if it can be a direct bolt up with use of a 75 efi intake manifold.

[Gumby]

I don't think clearance will be any more difficult than with the carb manifold. I have a EFI manifold we can use to test fit and clearances. We are still a ways off before actually making anything but a head count of anyone who is interested would be great.

[neuropel]

Count me in for one.

Todd K.

[tomking]

I only want the flange. Thanks.

[BQS4]

Originally Posted by Gumby I don't think clearance will be any more difficult than with the carb manifold. I have a EFI manifold we can use to test fit and clearances. We are still a ways off before actually making anything but a head count of anyone who is interested would be great.

This is for a turbo set up correct? If so, I'll wait for the tubular sprint....

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by BQS4 This is for a turbo set up correct? If so, I'll wait for the tubular sprint....

Correct this is just for a turbo. There are others working on a normal tubular header.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Gumby Correct this is just for a turbo. There are others working on a normal tubular header.

But for the moment, only plans for a GT header...

I don't know of anyone working on a 'fits all models' Sprint replacement at this time.

[Gumby]

Total for the turbo header will be $300. Stainless steel will be available if anyone is interested the price will be $500.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Gumby Total for the turbo header will be $300. Stainless steel will be available if anyone is interested the price will be $500.

Very cheap price. Either the welder isn't aware of the time involved in fitting the tubes (welding is only a tiny part of the equation), or he is truly just in need of work! Either way the Opel owner wins out.

Levi, I found the sample header flange this weekend, and shipped it out priority mail this morning. Probably see it Friday or so.

Bob

[Gumby]

A little of both I think but he's also a long time friend of mine who is willing to do the work relatively cheap. Pricing was based on the assumption that it would take 12hrs each to complete.

I'm hoping we can get at least a half dozen orders (not including the two I'm having made for myself) to make it worth his time. He'll be making mine first so I can approve of his work before we produce any for the community.

I'll keep an eye out for the mail. I've already started drawing the 2.4l exhaust manifold I have on hand. I haven't pulled my 1.9 yet so I haven't compared the two. Is there any difference between the exhaust manifold flange of the raised port heads and the older 1.9 and 2.0 heads?

[BQS4]

Not meaning to step on toes or whatever, since the cast iron sprint does fit all the Opels (at least the ones we got) can someone possibly look into a tubular type? The cast ones are getting harder to come across in good shape, not to mention taking off in price, but, a good tubular one would not only fit most Opels, but, could also be fitted with either of the two size of mounting flange forr the head pipe. I'm in no hurry for this, but, it would be a great thing to look into for those wanting a sprint, but, are having a time getting one.

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by Gumby A little of both I think but he's also a long time friend of mine who is willing to do the work relatively cheap. Pricing was based on the assumption that it would take 12hrs each to complete.

Fair enough then!

I'll keep an eye out for the mail. I've already started drawing the 2.4l exhaust manifold I have on hand. I haven't pulled my 1.9 yet so I haven't compared the two. Is there any difference between the exhaust manifold flange of the raised port heads and the older 1.9 and 2.0 heads?

The exhaust port locations and bolt patterns are the same for all the cast-iron headed CIH gasoline engines...1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.9, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4....with the sole exception being the 'Swedenkopf' 2.0 litre racing head. Since there are only 3-4 of those heads known to be in North America, I wouldn't worry about them!

Bob

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Not meaning to step on toes or whatever, since the cast iron sprint does fit all the Opels (at least the ones we got) can someone possibly look into a tubular type? The cast ones are getting harder to come across in good shape, not to mention taking off in price, but, a good tubular one would not only fit most Opels, but, could also be fitted with either of the two size of mounting flange forr the head pipe. I'm in no hurry for this, but, it would be a great thing to look into for those wanting a sprint, but, are having a time getting one.

It's not a bad idea at all Gene. But I suspect they'd like to accomplish one thing at a time. Flanges first, then the turbo manifolds can be built by Levi's friend.

And when Gregg's wagon is off my lift I'll start on the N/A Opel GT header prototype. And then Edwin's tube-bender friend can look at the costs to produce that item.

Ironically, from my point of view a 'Sprint' replica manifold would be more difficult to produce than a header. Making the severe merges in thick-walled tubing takes a lot of time. With a collector-type header the 4 tubes basically just 'end' or terminate in a formed collector, but in the 'Sprint' manifold, #2 and #3 cylinders need to merge into one before terminating at the flange, as do #1 and #4 cylinder.

Bob

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Not meaning to step on toes or whatever, since the cast iron sprint does fit all the Opels (at least the ones we got) can someone possibly look into a tubular type? The cast ones are getting harder to come across in good shape, not to mention taking off in price, but, a good tubular one would not only fit most Opels, but, could also be fitted with either of the two size of mounting flange forr the head pipe. I'm in no hurry for this, but, it would be a great thing to look into for those wanting a sprint, but, are having a time getting one.

No toes stepped on I'm all ears for ideas. While there aren't ready made manifolds for sale yet I can make both the header flange and a replica of the stock header to exhaust system flange. You'd just have to have someone weld the tubes in place and make sure it all came together about the same place as the stock manifold. I've already gotten the 2.4 manifold to exhaust pipe flange modeled and as soon as I pull the manifolds off of my 1.9 I can get that modeled too.

Originally Posted by RallyBob The exhaust port locations and bolt patterns are the same for all the cast-iron headed CIH gasoline engines...1.5, 1.6, 1.7, 1.9, 2.0, 2.2, 2.4....with the sole exception being the 'Swedenkopf' 2.0 litre racing head. Since there are only 3-4 of those heads known to be in North America, I wouldn't worry about them! Bob

Well that's good to know. So the 2.4 model I've started to make should work just fine.

One thing I was concerned about when I looked at the picture of your flange was how close the end bolt holes are to the edge of the material. I think the stock manifold had somewhere around .4" of material in that area but from the pictures I've seen of the previous manifolds there was less than half that much there. Also I've been thinking about the thickness of the flange. Previously they were 3/8" with welded on washers to bring the bolt locations to the correct height but since I'll be making these out of 1/2" it allows more flexability in the thickness of the flange. My preference would be to make them a touch thicker (.4 - .45") to help prevent warping while welding. There is a slight increase in weight but I am not sure that's a large concern given that we aren't making them out of the lightest material to begin with. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Originally Posted by RallyBob Ironically, from my point of view a 'Sprint' replica manifold would be more difficult to produce than a header. Making the severe merges in thick-walled tubing takes a lot of time. With a collector-type header the 4 tubes basically just 'end' or terminate in a formed collector, but in the 'Sprint' manifold, #2 and #3 cylinders need to merge into one before terminating at the flange, as do #1 and #4 cylinder. Bob

Is there any advantage for the sprint manifold over a well designed header? I'd image the header is quite a bit lighter than a cast iron manifold.

[Paul]

Bob and others working or thinking about the flanges,

This thought/question came to mind last year when doing my flange.... I noticed on my purchased header that the flange has a raised ridge where it mates with the metal insert of the gasket. If the flange is flat in this area, will there be any issues with getting to gasket/flange to seal????

Thoughts??? Anyone....

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Paul Bob and others working or thinking about the flanges, This thought/question came to mind last year when doing my flange.... I noticed on my purchased header that the flange has a raised ridge where it mates with the metal insert of the gasket. If the flange is flat in this area, will there be any issues with getting to gasket/flange to seal???? Thoughts??? Anyone....

If that feature is needed it will be really simple to ad on the finishing pass of the face.

[BQS4]

Originally Posted by RallyBob Ironically, from my point of view a 'Sprint' replica manifold would be more difficult to produce than a header. Making the severe merges in thick-walled tubing takes a lot of time. With a collector-type header the 4 tubes basically just 'end' or terminate in a formed collector, but in the 'Sprint' manifold, #2 and #3 cylinders need to merge into one before terminating at the flange, as do #1 and #4 cylinder. Bob

Bob;
I understand your point, but, you even stated that with a header, there's going to be a bazillion ways that people want it to fit their motor/driving yadd a yadda, but, if there was just the one design, which most want to get i.e. the cast iron sprint,, why not copy it? Just thinking out loud here

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Bob; I understand your point, but, you even stated that with a header, there's going to be a bazillion ways that people want it to fit their motor/driving yadd a yadda, but, if there was just the one design, which most want to get i.e. the cast iron sprint,, why not copy it? Just thinking out loud here

For the low volume demand it will likely be cheaper to produce them by welding tubes to a flange than it would to develop the molds and enter a short production run of cast sprint manifolds. Just keep in mind that those who want to deviate from the norm or what everyone else is planning on doing are going to make a custom setup anyway. You can't cater to everyone.

Like I said earlier if you are really dead set on something that will bolt up to your stock exhaust system that can be made... via a couple of flanges and some tubular steel.

I can make the flanges avaliable for those who want to bolt up to the stock exhaust. If fact we can probably even fab a couple of non-turbo headers that do just that while I still have my stock exhaust system in the car. These would be "one offs" no production and probably be more expensive than just finding a sprint manifold.

[BQS4]

I'm not "dead set", but, here's my thinking. F.I. obviously is the way to go now, especially since Megasquirt and such are making F.I. adaptable to most any car. I read an article in Hot Rod where some one F.I. their 426 Hemi Charger with an aftermarket F.I. But, in any case, you have to make modifications. Nothing new, but, why not make one part of the "conversion simpler? Most that want to put F.I. on their GT/Manta/Ascona/Kadett would need a sprint type manifold or header to allow room to fit the plenum and such. Why not go a step further and combine a header and the sprint and make it so it'll just bolt up? Right now, one would have to hunt down a sprint and shuck out big $$ or get one of those *ahem* headers you see on Ebay now and then? I'll withhold my comments on "that" header as we all know the story Anyway, I'm as dumb as a rock when it comes to F.I. and I will be the first to tell anyone that. If you were to lay out all the pieces for an F.I. unit, point a gun to my head and say "make it work", I'd have to say "pull the trigger" The 75 Wagon I have now is the first F.I. Opel I have ever had. Granted it has not given me any trouble, but, if it did, I wouldn't know what to do. But, making this tubular sprint would make it a little easier for future Opelers to covert their cars and enjoy them. I'm in no hurry what so ever, I'd just like to see it done. I even have my own RallyBob flange to start with.

[neuropel]

Bob,
Since these manifolds are designed for a GT, would they also fit a Manta?
Also, would the swain coating be needed on a stainless header (assuming they can coat stainless)?
Depending on these details, count me in for at least one and possibly two turbo manifolds.

Todd K.

[neuropel]

Originally Posted by BQS4 I'm not "dead set", but, here's my thinking. F.I. obviously is the way to go now, especially since Megasquirt and such are making F.I. adaptable to most any car. I read an article in Hot Rod where some one F.I. their 426 Hemi Charger with an aftermarket F.I. But, in any case, you have to make modifications. Nothing new, but, why not make one part of the "conversion simpler? Most that want to put F.I. on their GT/Manta/Ascona/Kadett would need a sprint type manifold or header to allow room to fit the plenum and such. Why not go a step further and combine a header and the sprint and make it so it'll just bolt up? Right now, one would have to hunt down a sprint and shuck out big $$ or get one of those *ahem* headers you see on Ebay now and then? I'll withhold my comments on "that" header as we all know the story Anyway, I'm as dumb as a rock when it comes to F.I. and I will be the first to tell anyone that. If you were to lay out all the pieces for an F.I. unit, point a gun to my head and say "make it work", I'd have to say "pull the trigger" The 75 Wagon I have now is the first F.I. Opel I have ever had. Granted it has not given me any trouble, but, if it did, I wouldn't know what to do. But, making this tubular sprint would make it a little easier for future Opelers to covert their cars and enjoy them. I'm in no hurry what so ever, I'd just like to see it done. I even have my own RallyBob flange to start with.

Good point Gene. One could also have a bung added for an O2 sensor for those wishing to convert to EFI.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by BQS4 I'm not "dead set", but, here's my thinking. F.I. obviously is the way to go now, especially since Megasquirt and such are making F.I. adaptable to most any car. I read an article in Hot Rod where some one F.I. their 426 Hemi Charger with an aftermarket F.I. But, in any case, you have to make modifications. Nothing new, but, why not make one part of the "conversion simpler? Most that want to put F.I. on their GT/Manta/Ascona/Kadett would need a sprint type manifold or header to allow room to fit the plenum and such. Why not go a step further and combine a header and the sprint and make it so it'll just bolt up? Right now, one would have to hunt down a sprint and shuck out big $$ or get one of those *ahem* headers you see on Ebay now and then? I'll withhold my comments on "that" header as we all know the story Anyway, I'm as dumb as a rock when it comes to F.I. and I will be the first to tell anyone that. If you were to lay out all the pieces for an F.I. unit, point a gun to my head and say "make it work", I'd have to say "pull the trigger" The 75 Wagon I have now is the first F.I. Opel I have ever had. Granted it has not given me any trouble, but, if it did, I wouldn't know what to do. But, making this tubular sprint would make it a little easier for future Opelers to covert their cars and enjoy them. I'm in no hurry what so ever, I'd just like to see it done. I even have my own RallyBob flange to start with.

I'm all for what you are saying but I am not sure how much the sprint manifolds go for these days... so I am not sure what you consider "big bucks" but a tubular sprint type manifold probably isn't going to be any cheaper since we are talking custom fab.

Originally Posted by neuropel Bob, Since these manifolds are designed for a GT, would they also fit a Manta? Also, would the swain coating be needed on a stainless header (assuming they can coat stainless)? Depending on these details, count me in for at least one and possibly two turbo manifolds. Todd K.

They may fit the Manta... but I can't guarantee that since I don't have a Manta. Also consider that it will have certain design compromises to make it fit in the GT while the Manta has a lot more room for a more ideal setup.

The swain coating wouldn't be needed since you could use header wraps but it would certainly be good to have if you are willing to spend the money!

[Paul]

Lets start by summing up the discussion...............

I understand where the 3 different sides are comming from.

A turbo exhaust manifold has been THE sticking point for all the guys wanting to boost their Opel. Other than RallyBob and Car and Driver not many Opels have gotten a workable turbo...

Lately, good headers for the GT and Manta have been few and far between. Only a couple good ones have shown up on Ebay and the likes. Sure RallyBob can make 'em for his needs, but those of us that can't fabricate our way out of an erector set.... we're pretty much stuck with what we got

For those wanting to upgrade to FI, ...well see the above post... and add in the high cost/bidding war when the occational Sprint manifold hits Ebay. Sure wish I had more than one of these so I could make a few extra bucks to fund the next round of suspension upgrades I have in mind.....

As to what Gene is suggesting... The real merrit to his argument is the fact that the Sprint manifold will fit BOTH the GT and the Manta/Ascona while a different header would be needed for each, GT and Manta.

Now the down side of the sprint, while it is better than the early, stove pipe manifold, it probably is not better than a qualtiy header. I would imagine that the cost to produce a tubular sprint would be similar to the cost of a header. If thats the case... then the consumer thinks, why not buy a header???? I think most have purchased the high buck/increasing rare sprint because they are more readily available than a header....

So maybe to some, the one size fits all solution (tubular sprint), looks like it would have the greatest sales volume potiential which might entice someone to get into the business to fab them up. To others, it would appear that if one goes to all the trouble to fabricate a manifold, all that money and trouble might as well yield additional power benefits...

Did I sum this up accurately.... (spelling errors aside)

[jordan]

Originally Posted by Gumby The swain coating wouldn't be needed since you could use header wraps but it would certainly be good to have if you are willing to spend the money!

Swain coating is far more efficient at reducing underhood heat soak than header wrap would be, header wrap also causes premature deterioration of the header and in my opinion swain coating looks far better.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Paul Lets start by summing up the discussion............... I understand where the 3 different sides are comming from. A turbo exhaust manifold has been THE sticking point for all the guys wanting to boost their Opel. Other than RallyBob and Car and Driver not many Opels have gotten a workable turbo... Lately, good headers for the GT and Manta have been few and far between. Only a couple good ones have shown up on Ebay and the likes. Sure RallyBob can make 'em for his needs, but those of us that can't fabricate our way out of an erector set.... we're pretty much stuck with what we got For those wanting to upgrade to FI, ...well see the above post... and add in the high cost/bidding war when the occational Sprint manifold hits Ebay. Sure wish I had more than one of these so I could make a few extra bucks to fund the next round of suspension upgrades I have in mind..... As to what Gene is suggesting... The real merrit to his argument is the fact that the Sprint manifold will fit BOTH the GT and the Manta/Ascona while a different header would be needed for each, GT and Manta. Now the down side of the sprint, while it is better than the early, stove pipe manifold, it probably is not better than a quality header. I would imagine that the cost to produce a tubular sprint would be similar to the cost of a header. If thats the case... then the consumer thinks, why not buy a header???? I think most have purchased the high buck/increasing rare sprint because they are more readily available than a header.... So maybe to some, the one size fits all solution (tubular sprint), looks like it would have the greatest sales volume potiential which might entice someone to get into the business to fab them up. To others, it would appear that if one goes to all the trouble to fabricate a manifold, all that money and trouble might as well yield additional power benefits... Did I sum this up accurately.... (spelling errors aside)

As you said the best bang for the buck is the header... GT owners are the majority of the potential buyers here in the US. Why would they spend the same cash for a product that is technically inferior to the header? The one manifold fits all really only appeals to those who own something other than a GT. However I already stated I'd make a few of the "sprint" type headers. It's just that it would be a one time deal while I have everything in the car for laying out the pipe. I really don't want to make a bunch of different jigs for a couple of manifolds.

Originally Posted by jordan Swain coating is far more efficient at reducing underhood heat soak than header wrap would be, header wrap also causes premature deterioration of the header and in my opinion swain coating looks far better.

Oh I very much agree! It's just that he asked if it would be needed.

I suppose if there is a manta owner in my neck of the woods who'd volunteer their car we could do a test fit to see if the turbo manifold will fit.

Rallybob can you send me general dimensions of the turbo you have? I can only find dimensions for the flange on their website and I'd like to get started on layout next week.