CNC Header Flanges

[Gumby]

Update: I've got everything setup on the table the way I want it. Now I just need to finish the programming and make this happen.

[Tru-Craft]

Gumby, you should post some pictures, I'm sure the Non-CNC machinist would be interested in "how it works".......me too.
I always go to local tool shows and see how other shops fixture stuff and the tooling they use.
Don't show any trade secrets of course!

32 years machining and I learn something new everyday!
Lyle

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft Gumby, you should post some pictures, I'm sure the Non-CNC machinist would be interested in "how it works".......me too. I always go to local tool shows and see how other shops fixture stuff and the tooling they use. Don't show any trade secrets of course! 32 years machining and I learn something new everyday! Lyle

haha nothing fancy just some stop blocks and some clamps. There wasn't near enough parts to warrant a jig that would allow me to cut two or more in the same setup with the 4th axis. I realized after the fact that I am short just a wee bit in X travel so I had to break out my Pythagorean theorem and angle the stock so I could get a tool around it. Truthfully you have a great deal more machining experience than I so I doubt I have much to teach you!

If you want to see some impressive setups (cnc and manual) take a look at the CNC Cook Book. I spent two hours yesterday just looking through this guys blog.

[Tru-Craft]

The best fixture is always the simplest.
Clamps work great.
Many ways! Another way is to use a 3/4 x 3" x 19" Aluminum sub plate.
*Drill and tap 5/16-18 holes in the Sub plate that match up with the manifold bolt pattern.
*Then take your blank 1/2" x 3" x 18" bar stock and drill 5/16 locator holes.
*Also maybe 4 rougher holes in the ports, to help the endmill when plunging in.
*Mount sub plate to the CNC mill table.
*Then bolt the drilled blank bars to the sub plate and hit the button.
Looks like a 1/2" 4 flute endmill will work, you need over 18" of X-travel with cutter offset.
Good idea rotating part!

As you know the program, setup, tooling, proper rpm, feed rates and flood coolant all are keys to a nice product.
It usually takes a couple parts to get all the bugs worked out.
Lyle

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft The best fixture is always the simplest. Clamps work great. Many ways! Another way is to use a 3/4 x 3" x 19" Aluminum sub plate. *Drill and tap 5/16-18 holes in the Sub plate that match up with the manifold bolt pattern. *Then take your blank 1/2" x 3" x 18" bar stock and drill 5/16 locator holes. *Also maybe 4 rougher holes in the ports, to help the endmill when plunging in. *Mount sub plate to the CNC mill table. *Then bolt the drilled blank bars to the sub plate and hit the button. Looks like a 1/2" 4 flute endmill will work, you need over 18" of X-travel with cutter offset. Good idea rotating part! As you know the program, setup, tooling, proper rpm, feed rates and flood coolant all are keys to a nice product. It usually takes a couple parts to get all the bugs worked out. Lyle

Truthfully if I were making 100s or 1000s of parts your method would make more sense, or perhaps using a fixture plate in my rotary axis so I could use both sides. There are a great deal of ways to improve productivity! Basically my plan was to face both sides, open up the ports (modern high speed machining tool paths mean the end mill is never taking true plunge cuts), drill the bolt holes, and finish with a single profile pass (1/2" DOC). This should keep the number of operations to a min. I am trying to keep the programing as simple as possible because truthfully that takes almost as much time as everything else on such a short run. I'll be proofing the program in wood since I hate wasting metal on idiot screw-up's. Feed and speeds should be fine and I always use flood on steel. SFM become too limited without it. I don't have enough spindle hp or ridigity to take cuts that throw away enough metal to cut dry. If I ever upgrade the spindle to a 2.2 - 4.5kw high frequency unit then that would be a different matter!

I still haven't decided if I'll use a 1/2" or 3/8" end mill... I have a pile of both including a few high performance tools (SGS z-carb, Hanita Varimill, Gorilla Mill). I'm leaning towards the 3/8" because of possible chatter when I load up the tool to .003" CLPT or higher @ full DOC.

[Tru-Craft]

Sounds like you have the project well thought out.
Like you said, short runs are tough. If you never run the job again, don't invest in fixturing, or at least not much.
Yep, lot's of ways to do a job.
The 1/2 EM, with a 1/2"LOC would be nice for chip clearance and strength, if your spindle is rigid enough.

CNC = push the green button & the finished part comes out the other side.
: )

[Gumby]

Sorry for the delay everyone. I took my first real vacation in 2 years with my family and have military training every weekend this month so I haven't had much time for side projects.

The good news is that tonight I started programming my CAM software. The bad news is that I won't be able to touch it again until Monday at the earliest. Progress is being made, just slowly.

[Gumby]

Update:

July was absolutely crazy. I went down to San Francisco, a couple of cities in Texas, and had several field exercises for the reserves. I am also getting the final details worked out for acquiring cryogenic processing equipment.

The first test part is slated to come off of the machine this coming weekend. It will be used to verify the part and then production can begin.

I apologize to everyone involved for taking so long!

[BQS4]

Originally Posted by Gumby I apologize to everyone involved for taking so long!

Hey, better to take one's time and deliver a quality product, then the opposite!

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Hey, better to take one's time and deliver a quality product, then the opposite!

Not according to Bill Gates!

Harold

[Geek]

cryogenic processing equipment

Are you planning on cryo'ing auto parts, or just getting ready for a really long sleep?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by BQS4 Hey, better to take one's time and deliver a quality product, then the opposite!

I agree!

Originally Posted by Geek Are you planning on cryo'ing auto parts, or just getting ready for a really long sleep?

Auto parts, gun parts, gears, cutting tools, etc. Maybe looking for an Opel owner special? :P

[Gumby]

Update: Plates are going to be surface cut to the correct thickness on Tuesday. I don't quiet have enough x axis travel to do it so I am borrowing a gunsmith's equipment to get it done. Technically speaking I could cut them on my machine but it is a lot less troublesome to do it on a knee mill that has plenty of x travel.

Once that is done they'll be heading to my cnc mill to be finished.

Also the cryogenic processing equipment is going to happen. As soon as that is all setup I'll post something listing "opeler" prices on treatment of various common auto parts.

[Gumby]

The model I had originally made from my 2.4 exhaust manifold was a bit much for a 1.9 (port sizes were too big in my opinion) so I am remodeling the part to better match rallybob's example he sent to me. That won't take too terribly long so I'll try proofing the program today and post pictures tonight.

I think I've made everyone wait long enough!

[Gumby]

Models updated. Attached are pictures. Now I will begin programming my CAM software.

For any machinist out there I'll be running 30ipm @ 3000rpm with a .375" 4 flute standard 30 degree helix carbide end mill. That is a .0025 chipload per tooth and what I consider on the higher end of what a 3/8" 4fl tool can do and will allow me to cut right at the hp limit of the mill (1.5hp spindle).

[Gumby]

Model is being proofed on the mill as I write this. I'll post pictures when I'm done.

[Gumby]

OK we are ready to roll.

Since I know it has been about two months since I took the original head count I want to make sure that everyone who said they wanted one is still interested. I should have everyone's zip codes already so I'll be getting those shipping quotes out to everyone soon. Once I send you the shipping quote please let me know how you intend on paying (paypal, check, postal money order, etc) so I can get you either my shipping address or paypal email address. This is for the SS and mild steel flanges only.

My mill is currently up for sale so I am trying to get these parts out of the door asap, with that said the turbo manifolds are going to be put on hold until I can find a HMC within my budget and to my liking to replace my small 1.5hp vertical mill.

I am still committed to getting the turbo manifolds done and I have some ideas on the turbo manifolds that would save space and reduce the required welding (fully machined) so it is only a matter of time.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Gumby OK we are ready to roll. Since I know it has been about two months since I took the original head count I want to make sure that everyone who said they wanted one is still interested. I should have everyone's zip codes already so I'll be getting those shipping quotes out to everyone soon. Once I send you the shipping quote please let me know how you intend on paying (paypal, check, postal money order, etc) so I can get you either my shipping address or paypal email address. This is for the SS and mild steel flanges only. My mill is currently up for sale so I am trying to get these parts out of the door asap, with that said the turbo manifolds are going to be put on hold until I can find a HMC within my budget and to my liking to replace my small 1.5hp vertical mill. I am still committed to getting the turbo manifolds done and I have some ideas on the turbo manifolds that would save space and reduce the required welding (fully machined) so it is only a matter of time.

I'm still with you Levi for the two mild steel flanges,
Hiro

[BQS4]

I'm still in for a (1) stainless steel one.....

[tomking]

I am still in for one mild steel flange.

[Tru-Craft]

Originally Posted by Gumby Models updated. Attached are pictures. Now I will begin programming my CAM software. For any machinist out there I'll be running 30ipm @ 3000rpm with a .375" 4 flute standard 30 degree helix carbide end mill. That is a .0025 chipload per tooth and what I consider on the higher end of what a 3/8" 4fl tool can do and will allow me to cut right at the hp limit of the mill (1.5hp spindle).

Yes, I still want a steel flange.

30 IPM is very fast for a 3/8 4FLT EM in steel. The web diameter on the 3/8 EM is less than a 1/4, it can't take a big side load.
Your spindle HP is fine, the EM will break before you stall the motor.
I would program 12-15 IPM, depending on the depth of cut you are programming, and coolant you are using.
Fine tune the feed and spindle RPM overide as needed.
Vibration and harmonics are the machines enemy, 100 RPM and 0.1 IPM can make a big difference.
As you know, to run rapid speeds/feeds in steel or stainless, you need a big spindle motor and bearings, with #50 tooling. A solid square/V-way bed with big servo motors driving the axis, flood coolant.............and a part mounted securely to the table.

My machines are light duty and I program so they will last for years.
What milling machine do you have?

After you run the first flange, you will know exactly what the settings need to be.
Good luck, let the chips fly and be safe.
Lyle

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft Yes, I still want a steel flange. 30 IPM is very fast for a 3/8 4FLT EM in steel. The web diameter on the 3/8 EM is less than a 1/4, it can't take a big side load. Your spindle HP is fine, the EM will break before you stall the motor. I would program 12-15 IPM, depending on the depth of cut you are programming, and coolant you are using. Fine tune the feed and spindle RPM overide as needed. Vibration and harmonics are the machines enemy, 100 RPM and 0.1 IPM can make a big difference. As you know, to run rapid speeds/feeds in steel or stainless, you need a big spindle motor and bearings, with #50 tooling. A solid square/V-way bed with big servo motors driving the axis, flood coolant.............and a part mounted securely to the table. My machines are light duty and I program so they will last for years. What milling machine do you have? After you run the first flange, you will know exactly what the settings need to be. Good luck, let the chips fly and be safe. Lyle

300SFM is pretty close to what most tool manufactures recommend for their tool to be run at in mild steel. I am only running 25% stepover @ full DOC on the portions of the toolpath where it is running that fast (pocketing) to give it plenty of room/time to eject the chips and get a good surface finish. Full width slots will be 12ipm @ .472 DOC but in truth I could run it nearly as fast with a helical tool path.

I seem to remember you have a larger mill than mine. If the .371" tool can't take the heat I'll simply swap in one of my more expensive tools which are designed to be run that hard (variable everything geometry).

[RallyBob]

I'm still in for (2) of them in stainless steel.

[neuropel]

I was originally in for one stainless flange plus one stainless turbo manifold. You mentioned that you have an idea for the manifolds that involves less welding and more machining - will they use these same flanges? Are you only wanting orders for the flanges now?

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by neuropel I was originally in for one stainless flange plus one stainless turbo manifold. You mentioned that you have an idea for the manifolds that involves less welding and more machining - will they use these same flanges? Are you only wanting orders for the flanges now?

I'm pumping out just the flanges right now, so yes I am only wanting orders for the flanges.

Technically speaking yes the flanges could be the same, but the connecting material between the ports becomes obsolete. My idea is basically to take two blocks of metal and "port" the material out of both of them to form 4 individual runners that meet up right at the turbo flange. The two pieces then get sandwiched together and welded. The result is a very compact header that by my estimates will stick out less than the original tube based header I had originally thought to make. You still need atleast a flange to the head welded on. So a total of three pieces if the turbo flange can be incorporated into the lower piece of the manifold (not terribly hard), but for ease of varation a flange for the specific turbo can then be welded on. That means the manifold can be made to order for just about any turbo with very little difference in cost. This is not really a "new" idea. Others have been making turbo headers this way for who knows how long.

Basically this allows complete and accurate control over the contours and shape of the exhaust manifold. Material costs are higher, machine costs are higher, but welding time is much lower, and overall you'd get a superior product that would perform exceptionly well for low end response for the turbo. Truthfully I could make this right now with my current equipment but not economically because of the amount of time it would take to machine on my low hp (ie slow cutting) cnc mill, one of the many reason I am looking for a 7 - 15hp horizontal machining center. Cost is unknown at this point, mostly depending on what metal prices are by the time I get around to making them.

I currently have more orders for flanges (if everyone is still interested) than I material on hand. So once I get the rest of the material their may be flanges left over, up for sale or can be set aside for turbo headers.

Sorry for the long post O_o