CNC Header Flanges

[tomking]

Perhaps you could ask your power company to change their tap on the pole to lower your incoming voltage a bit. They too have multiple taps on their transformers.

Originally Posted by Gumby Wrench, you are probably thinking of an isolation transformer to convert Wye to Delta 3 phase. Geek, transformers are used to step up or down the voltage with AC power. tomking, I am not sure it is that simple. Supposedly it can be wired for 200-520v input BUT instructions only cover 200v, 220v, 380v, 480v, 520v. Nothing about 240v input. Typically 240v service has normally lost enough voltage by the time it gets to the machinery to fall within the usable input voltage of the 220v wiring but my voltage is coming in at too high of a voltage for that to happen. 246v for L1 and L2 is higher than the allowable 10 percent variation that the controller can handle. Tru-craft, line to ground is 124.5v on L1 and L2, 230v on L3. Line to line on L1 and L2 is 246v and to L3 is 261v. All voltages are too high. Balancing the RPC won't get L1 or L2 to drop their voltage. Several suggestions have been made, one put a load on the phase converter to get the voltage to drop, balance the RPC to get the voltage on leg three down (I do not think this is entirely the issue), or buy a transformer and step the voltage down to the 220v range. There is no point in going to the effort to purchase a 3 phase transformer when I can step it down on the single phase side of things.

[Geek]

Are you using a rotory or solid state phase converter?

[Gumby]

Geek, it is a rotary phase converter. Solid state devices are several times more expensive.

tomking, I could ask but it doesn't mean they would do it because it technically is not out of the legal limits for 220v power. Also if I move the machine to somewhere else at a later date and have the same issue I've still got no permenant solution. Right now I am in discussion with someone who has a 9kva multi tap 3ph transformer they aren't using. They are asking $100 for it, which I think is a good deal.

[Tru-Craft]

Lets get back to basics.
You need 3 phase power, 240 between the lines.
You have single phase coming into your shop, which gives you 2 lines.
Then the rotary phase converter produces a third "false" line.

246 is perfect, not sure why the #3 high line is so high!
To drop the voltage on the high line, try a single line step down transformer 10% reduction would be perfect.

But, like tomking said, call the power company, they should be able to help, that line is too high, +10% is not OK
If this is zoned residental and not industrial be careful not to get in trouble.
Lyle

[tomking]

If it works, that is a good deal.

Originally Posted by Gumby Geek, it is a rotary phase converter. Solid state devices are several times more expensive. tomking, I could ask but it doesn't mean they would do it because it technically is not out of the legal limits for 220v power. Also if I move the machine to somewhere else at a later date and have the same issue I've still got no permenant solution. Right now I am in discussion with someone who has a 9kva multi tap 3ph transformer they aren't using. They are asking $100 for it, which I think is a good deal.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft Lets get back to basics. You need 3 phase power, 240 between the lines. You have single phase coming into your shop, which gives you 2 lines. Then the rotary phase converter produces a third "false" line. 246 is perfect, not sure why the #3 high line is so high! To drop the voltage on the high line, try a single line step down transformer 10% reduction would be perfect. But, like tomking said, call the power company, they should be able to help, that line is too high, +10% is not OK If this is zoned residental and not industrial be careful not to get in trouble. Lyle

Third leg was originally 260ish before I adjusted the phase converter to a lower voltage at no load. The point of that was to demonstrate that the high voltage on leg 3 was not the cause of the problem. The third leg is always going to be the "wild" leg. It will be substantially higher at no load and dip much lower compared to the other lines under load.

Yes ideally I would have exactly 240v or 220v between legs at no load so I could wire it up as either 200v or 220v inline voltage on the transformer and still have it work even with voltage sag when the spindle spins up to speed. I don’t think I even need a 10% reduction in voltage, I only need the voltage on legs 1 and 2 to go down about 6volts…

[Gumby]

Update:

The 3ph transformer will be here today. If all goes well I should be making chips by dinner time I am also ordering a 3" indexable face mill so I can get the surface finish up to par on the flanges.

[Gumby]

Current update: The mill and all of my equipment is being moved this Thursday into a new shop space. I wasn't able to keep the current space warm enough during the recent snow/ice storm (really rare for this area). During the cold weather the switches wouldn't work to power the machine up... ie I was dead in the water for the last 4 weeks. Now after it has thawed I find there is condensation in the power supply. The machine won't boot... and after some diagnostic work looks like it will be at least a 800 dollar fix for a new power supply for the controller.

I deeply apologize for the delay, it has been one thing after another. I can issue a complete refund if anyone is tired of waiting OR I can refund half of the money of the mild flanges and send the product as it is now. They are cut to the correct shape, they just need surfaced down to the correct thickness. A local shop would likely charge $15-20ea to surface them on a grinder to the correct thickness.

Otherwise it looks like it will be no later than feb that all of them are shipped out.

-Levi

[Nathan Acree]

I for one am not in any hurry- sounds like you have your hands full. Good luck with getting your machine fixed.

Nathan
Albuquerque New Mexico

[RallyBob]

I'm fine with waiting a bit longer, I really want the stainless flanges still. Good luck setting up your new workspace. I know it's not easy!

[BQS4]

I'm in no hurry, I really want a SS flange.

[tomking]

I am in no hurry.

[ggl]

Originally Posted by Gumby Current update: The mill and all of my equipment is being moved this Thursday into a new shop space. I wasn't able to keep the current space warm enough during the recent snow/ice storm (really rare for this area). During the cold weather the switches wouldn't work to power the machine up... ie I was dead in the water for the last 4 weeks. Now after it has thawed I find there is condensation in the power supply. The machine won't boot... and after some diagnostic work looks like it will be at least a 800 dollar fix for a new power supply for the controller.

Sorry to hear about your problems, I'm self employed myself and know how it goes....on the other hand, do I sense an opportunity for a late order of one mild steel flange to be shipped to Norway ?

Never been totally happy with my ENEM header as the center tubes aren't "fixed" so it's a hit and miss affair whether or not you get them in the right position when you bolt it all together. I've always meant to do something about that but why reinvent the wheel when someone's come up with a better solution than I could make myself

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by ggl Sorry to hear about your problems, I'm self employed myself and know how it goes....on the other hand, do I sense an opportunity for a late order of one mild steel flange to be shipped to Norway ? Never been totally happy with my ENEM header as the center tubes aren't "fixed" so it's a hit and miss affair whether or not you get them in the right position when you bolt it all together. I've always meant to do something about that but why reinvent the wheel when someone's come up with a better solution than I could make myself

I may make more of these later on with a potential turbo manifold but we'll cross that road when we get there.

Good news! I signed the shop lease Monday. I have keys in hand, to my surprise the shop does have 3 phase power! I've got the layout all worked out on where I want everything with room for a good size lathe. I'd like to get a Monach or takisawa in good shape but that may be a while as cash allows.

Bad news! The mill was moved up there yesterday... which was a fiasco. I realized that the axis motor was at the top of its travel when it died (I zeroed the axis right when it went out) and blocked access to the bolts that couple the axis motor to the ball screw. So I had to disassemble the bottom supporting bearing and manually turn the ball screw. That action did a bit of damage to the end of the ball screw (nothing mission critical) but it means I'll have to turn the end down and install a bushing to bring it back out to the correct diameter. I did confirm that it was the fanuc power supply that bit the dust before I disconnected power... nothing is coming out of the thing but the power input unit still works. It's an thousand dollar part so I am hoping that is the only thing that bit the dust.

Also the lathe blew out a bushing that supported the gears that turn a screw for the power feed and thread cutting functions... Got it all fixed and back together and turns out it also broke a tooth off of the power feed in the carriage...

I was contemplating making more of those extra long studs. I was thinking about either tossing them in with the flange orders or making a flange for a common turbo. Thoughts? They would probably all need to be the same if they are the flanges... but if some want studs over the flange that would be fine.

[RallyBob]

How's the shop space coming along? I only ask because I dragged my dad's GT out yesterday in order to prototype a naturally aspirated header for 1.9 engines.

While I was at it and the car was on the lift, I thought I'd build his turbo GT header. So, any idea yet on the stainless flanges? No pressure, really, just asking how it's coming along. I can do most of the fitting with a mild steel flange for mockup purposes.

Thanks,
Bob

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by RallyBob How's the shop space coming along? I only ask because I dragged my dad's GT out yesterday in order to prototype a naturally aspirated header for 1.9 engines. While I was at it and the car was on the lift, I thought I'd build his turbo GT header. So, any idea yet on the stainless flanges? No pressure, really, just asking how it's coming along. I can do most of the fitting with a mild steel flange for mockup purposes. Thanks, Bob

Could be better but certainly could be worse. Turns out where I opened the shop there is not a single machinist in town... The mech who I am renting from is trying to persuade me to do valve work for him.

The mill is a sad monolith of its former self. The 24v short at the very least popped the power supply and CRT board (size of a modern mother board), blew a fuse on the crt control itself (monitor integrated with a key panel), and very likely may have taken out the mother board as well.

I hope (fingers, toes, etc all crossed) that it didn't take out the bubble memory card as this was the only non-original card in the machine and very expensive to replace. It was the 512k version (originally 16k). The CRT card is $500-750 (depends on if I can find it on ebay), power supply is $800, CRT monitor is $300 (has smell of burnt electronics ), motherboard if dead will be another 600-700, and last but not least the bubble memory (512k unit) is another 2k if it also bit the dust. At least the motion controllers are still functioning. If I am lucky the the PLC (Programmable logic controller) will also be untouched... if it isn't then I might as well scrap the whole controller because the PLC would need to come from an identical machine from the maker (ie next to impossible to get).

The upside is that I just sold my shipping container and the cash flow should help the repairs along. If I can move my phase converter then I'll be able to make all this happen right quick.

[markandson]

Originally Posted by Gumby Could be better but certainly could be worse. Turns out where I opened the shop there is not a single machinist in town... The mech who I am renting from is trying to persuade me to do valve work for him. The mill is a sad monolith of its former self. The 24v short at the very least popped the power supply and CRT board (size of a modern mother board), blew a fuse on the crt control itself (monitor integrated with a key panel), and very likely may have taken out the mother board as well. I hope (fingers, toes, etc all crossed) that it didn't take out the bubble memory card as this was the only non-original card in the machine and very expensive to replace. It was the 512k version (originally 16k). The CRT card is $500-750 (depends on if I can find it on ebay), power supply is $800, CRT monitor is $300 (has smell of burnt electronics ), motherboard if dead will be another 600-700, and last but not least the bubble memory (512k unit) is another 2k if it also bit the dust. At least the motion controllers are still functioning. If I am lucky the the PLC (Programmable logic controller) will also be untouched... if it isn't then I might as well scrap the whole controller because the PLC would need to come from an identical machine from the maker (ie next to impossible to get). The upside is that I just sold my shipping container and the cash flow should help the repairs along. If I can move my phase converter then I'll be able to make all this happen right quick.

Do you have the capability to determine which parts got fried. On the power supply you may have just popped some diodes or something and they could be easily replaced. Many times, even though you don't know the circuitry you can just replace parts and things come back to life. I have repaired TV's, Radios, power supplies and other stuff this way. The other thing that happens is the circuit board conductors pop like fuses. You just start hunting with a magnifying glass (if necessary) and then replace the bad spots with jumper wires. Might save yourself a bundle.

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by markandson Do you have the capability to determine which parts got fried. On the power supply you may have just popped some diodes or something and they could be easily replaced. Many times, even though you don't know the circuitry you can just replace parts and things come back to life. I have repaired TV's, Radios, power supplies and other stuff this way. The other thing that happens is the circuit board conductors pop like fuses. You just start hunting with a magnifying glass (if necessary) and then replace the bad spots with jumper wires. Might save yourself a bundle.

Technically that might be possible depending on the exact amount and type of damage. That isn't so much the issue as the fact that it is proprietary equipment made in the 80s (state of the art in it's day) and isn't like a TV or radio... I know my way around modern computers very well, older equipment so-so, but something that used a tape drive and bubble memory as storage not so much... there is a much greater chance of just further damage to the boards since it may still be possible to repair them rather than replace them. At this point I think the most cost effective solution will be to find a shop that repairs cnc controllers and have them test all of the boards.

[Gumby]

Update: The repair tech got back to me today. $1500 for a new power supply. Once that is replaced then the rest of the system can be powered up and we'll see if anything else is broken

[Hareluya]

[Gumby]

Ha I love eBay. Won a 1500 part for 113. About time I get a lucky break. We'll see if anything else bit the dust after I get it powered up.

[razor's edge]

I'd be interested in a flange or two. Let me know what's going on! Thanks, Brian

[Gumby]

I don't have enough material for extra flanges at this point and all of the billet I have right now is spoken for. Let me get these out the door before worrying about a second order.

Fantastic news. Unexpected package arrived today. A trip out to the shop and the machine now boots. Next up is to hook the hydraulic systems back up and the z axis motor (disassembled for transportation) and I'm not far from making parts!

I'll be working on it for a good part of Sunday so hopefully I'll have more good news!!!

[Tru-Craft]

That is great news!
You still got a great deal on your machine.
Once you find a parts source and a local tech guy for help for your machine, things will get better.
CNC machines can make you money, but they cost alot to maintain them and when they break down.
Most of mine are old, parts can be tough to find, and factory support is a joke.
"We can't help you with your older model machine, but we have this new one for $85,000, that would be perfect for you".
Nice!
Lyle

[Gumby]

Originally Posted by Tru-Craft That is great news! You still got a great deal on your machine. Once you find a parts source and a local tech guy for help for your machine, things will get better. CNC machines can make you money, but they cost alot to maintain them and when they break down. Most of mine are old, parts can be tough to find, and factory support is a joke. "We can't help you with your older model machine, but we have this new one for $85,000, that would be perfect for you". Nice! Lyle

Takisawa I hear has decent support but so far I haven't had to deal with them at all. Your machine is a Haas which if I remember correctly they use their own controller for their machines. My machine has a Fanuc 6M-B controller on it which was VERY common in the 80s. A lot of machines are still running with this controller because of how robust it was so parts are available. So far I am absolutely amazed at how durable the electronics in this thing are.

The local support guy wanted $1500 for the part I ended up buying on eBay for 113+20 shipping.

Now all that really needs to be done to the machine is fix the tool changer solenoid (ie I can start making parts before that happens) and fix the air leak in one of the doors. If I can get the spindle powered up tomorrow I can get the mild steel flanges finished.