Alternative pistons for 2.2

[lamchop77]

Hi alll again

Different question this time for any 2.2 owners out there. What alternative pistons can be used toupgrade on the 2.2 std setup. Got a few 2.2's at the moment but been told that production of the 2.2 pistons has drastically reduced possibly stopped. Last quote i had was £123 +vat = £144.50 (181.09 euros - $267) each for std pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can get customs made up via wossner but what alternatives are available?

Cheers guys

Chris

[opelnut10]

In the US Ford made a 255 cubic inch V8 engine that has the pin in the right place for using in the 2.2 and are available aftermarket from auto suppliers. For a 2.2 you have to use the .060 over size and you have the have the small end of the rod resized to the Ford pin size (not a big difference, but makes the rod ends uniform) the pistons are cheap (they are cast pistons) and rings are commonly available for them.

[opelnut10]

You will also need to have the valve reliefs enlarged on the tops of the pistons but if you are using bigger valves and a higher lift cam you will need to do this anyway.

[lamchop77]

Thanks again.

Did they do a forged piston for the ford motor? Contacts to buy a set would come in handy if you have them.

Thanks

Chris

[opelnut10]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Thanks again. Did they do a forged piston for the ford motor? Contacts to buy a set would come in handy if you have them. Thanks Chris

I am not aware of any forged pistons offered by any of the stock manufacturers, you can get the stock replacement ones through Rock Auto (do vendor site search for contact address) or if you want forged pistons Venolia Pistons & Rods at 2160 Cherry Industrial Circle, Long Beach California 90805 have the blanks and can make you a set along with the pins and rings. Their telephone # is (323) 636-9329 or (562) 531-8463 and the contact I use is Dale.

[markandson]

You could also have custom pistons made, which is what I did for my 2.2, I don't recall the cost I would have to look it up. The ones I had made were for 1.88 and 1.60 valves and my cam has a lift of about .500, they were also for Ford rods but that is only a pin height adjustment and pin diameter adjustment. Look at this thread.

[tekenaar]

Originally Posted by opelnut10 In the US Ford made a 255 cubic inch V8 engine that has the pin in the right place for using in the 2.2 and are available aftermarket from auto suppliers. For a 2.2 you have to use the .060 over size and you have the have the small end of the rod resized to the Ford pin size (not a big differance, but makes the rod ends uniform) the pistons are cheap (they are cast pistons) and rings are commonly available for them.

. . . what is the standard bore for that Ford 255ci V8 then . . . 3 11/16"? . . . what years were these engines used? Will these pistons be below or above deck in the CIH block with 2.2 crank and stock rods, and by how much +/-?

. . . Opel pins are .906", Ford pins are .912" . . . I only know this because I built an engine using a set of forged Venolia 94mm bore "Ford" pistons with a 2.2 crank and had to enlarge the rod small end for press fit Ford pin.

This must be the same "255" piston, only .020" over, and would make the standard "255" bore ~93.5mm . . . very interesting info . . . gives me an alternative should the shaved/relieved stock pistons not work out in my cheap 2.1 (93x77.5) build . . . hmmm.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by tekenaar . . . what is the standard bore for that Ford 255ci V8 then . . . 3 11/16"? . . . what years were these engines used? Will these pistons be below or above deck in the CIH block with 2.2 crank and stock rods, and by how much +/-? . . . Opel pins are .906", Ford pins are .912" . . . I only know this because I built an engine using a set of forged Venolia 94mm bore "Ford" pistons with a 2.2 crank and had to enlarge the rod small end for press fit Ford pin. This must be the same "255" piston, only .020" over, and would make the standard "255" bore ~93.5mm . . . very interesting info . . . gives me an alternative should the shaved/relieved stock pistons not work out in my cheap 2.1 (93x77.5) build . . . hmmm.

yes Otto it's probably this piston:
United Engine and Machine Co.
the CD is a little bit short thus this piston will be 1mm below deck with a 2.2 crank & rod setup,
nothing major just have to mill the block.
Hiro

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Hi alll again Different question this time for any 2.2 owners out there. What alternative pistons can be used toupgrade on the 2.2 std setup. Got a few 2.2's at the moment but been told that production of the 2.2 pistons has drastically reduced possibly stopped. Last quote i had was £123 +vat = £144.50 (181.09 euros - $267) each for std pistons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can get customs made up via wossner but what alternatives are available? Cheers guys Chris

I did not find alternative source for this 2.2 forged piston,
One thing is its cd is pretty high (41.25mm) & the 2.2 rod ratio is not so good (1.652),
Therefore if I was to build a race CIH with the 2.2 crank I would use this recipe:
Toyota 3SGTE forged rods + Wossner 2.4 pistons,
That's 2291cc with a 1.78 rod ratio,
The Wossner pin is a direct fit into the 3SGTE rod,
Crank journal work will be required to fit the Toyota big end (48mm x 26.9mm),
Piston will be above deck 0.15mm
That's a cheap & easy combo IMO.
Hiro

[lamchop77]

Hiro

Thanks for the info. What cars/engine are the toyota rods from? Would you use a thicker gasket with the piston being 0.15mm (.006") over the deck, or just use the std thickness to keep compression up?

Without going away and measuring what needs to be done to the crank?

Also, where do you get all your info from?

Been in touch with DBilas for a cam and have been told to order through Regal Autosport in the UK. Trouble is Regal are allegedly rip off merchants and put the prices trough the roof!!!! Who do you buy your cams through and do they speak English? Did you pay the price listed on the DBilas website?

Thanks again for the info and sorry for the massive amount of questions!!!!

Chris

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Hiro Thanks for the info. What cars/engine are the toyota rods from? Would you use a thicker gasket with the piston being 0.15mm over the deck, or just use the std thickness to keep compression up? Without going away and measuring what needs to be done to the crank? Also, where do you get all your info from? Been in touch with DBilas for a cam and have been told to order through Regal Autosport in the UK. Trouble is Regal are allegedly rip off merchants and put the prices trough the roof!!!! Who do you buy your cams through and do they speak English? Did you pay the price listed on the DBilas website? Thanks again for the infoand sorry for the massive amount of questions!!!! Chris

I don't know the Toyota car but the engine type is 3SGTE,
Found my rods from Ebay it's an Eagle forged set.
I will use a thicker than stock headgasket,
Actual thickness will depend upon the chamber volume aiming at a 11.5 CR
The crank journals need to be ground to 48mm to fit the 3SGTE big end,
Nothing difficult for a good machining shop.
I get all my info by listing all available "off the shelf" race parts for rods & pistons,
Lots of data are available from Eagle, Pauter, Keith Black, JE, Ebay auctions etc,
All the std CIH data I have from my own stock of parts,
Some non-CIH data I collect by purchasing cheap used/broken parts here & there,
Then a little bit of math & you end up with a huge number of possible race CIH to build...
For the camshafts I have them custom made in Florida from Cam Techniques,
Very nice company to deal with & they have lots of cam profiles for our CIH engines.
Hiro

[stalle]

HI Hiro and others !

At home with a bad cold I have nothing better to do then reading
"all" post about the CIH engine

I think this 2.2 crank+Toyota rod combo looks very interesting.
As I understand it combines low crank weight, good rod ratio,
and easy to find rods and pistons.

Have you made any progress with this engine, and have you discovered any draw backs yet ?

Humm .....I wonder howe things are at the "head office", have reasetly fired up my 2.4 with the new ITB:s and ECU and now Im thinking of a new and hopefully even more powerful engine !

I would be nice to build a CIH with both torque and hi-rev possibilitys
and I think this combo may have this, with the right head and cam.

It would be nice if you out there fill in with your knowledge....


/Staffan

[lamchop77]

Staffan

Gone a different route to the same 2.3 capacity.(Discussion on 2.7 motor build if you want to read). 2.2 crank, 2.4 rods, 97mm, 10.87-1 comp ratio custom pistons by JE done through Performance Unlimited in the UK. Set up gives a 2290cc motor with a 1.729 rod ratio with the only custom part being the pistons which are being built as we speak, everything else is available off the shelf.

HTH

Chris

P.s Get well soon!!!!

[jeff denton]

Hiro mentioned that Toyota spec Eagle rod in the "con rod FAQ" thread. I just looked it up at several sites and see it can be had for about $320. It's 5.428" and 550g. Beat that.
I don't have all my notes at home. Will be calculating piston c/d with that rod and 2.2 stroke ASAP. Wonder if there might be a little play room to cheat that stroke a tad more? Still looking for a 2.2 crank, by the way. On this side of the world, please!

[wrench459]

Jeff have you looked into offset grinding the crank?
I know your working with in the rule book.
You'll come up a little short for displacement.
My older brother held off the onslaught of the 350's flying wedge cars years ago with a 283.

[jeff denton]

Yeah, Hiro was playing with that a couple years ago, he found that the crankpin's oil feed hole moved off to the side too much. A tad bit of offset grinding the 2.2 crank to make up for any rod length/cd/deck adjustments would be pretty simple though.
Alternative might be the weldup method.
Better yet I'm hoping (still waiting) for a tech decision as to whether an Ecotech engine would be allowed in a GT. Wouldn't that just make it all too easy?
Remember this will be the Outlaw Compact Class, compared to what our local track rules were there practically are none as far as how extreme you can build the engine. They changed again since I last brought it up. Stroke all you want now, switch cranks if you can, etc...

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by wrench459 Jeff... I know you're working within the rule book.

Harold

[jeff denton]

Oh, no, Harold, it's a whole new game now! This Outlaw Compact Class has nothing to do with Montana Raceway Park and vice versa. My Opel has nothing to do with Montana Raceway Park, either. The outlaw rules allow, encourage, beg us to have really fast race cars. There would never be a teardown because anything you can do or put into your engine is legal. Same with suspension parts! We could build a killer homemade setup from scratch or out of the Super Late Model catalog.

[hrcollinsjr]

Originally Posted by jeff denton Oh, no, Harold, it's a whole new game now! This Outlaw Compact Class has nothing to do with Montana Raceway Park and vice versa. My Opel has nothing to do with Montana Raceway Park, either. The outlaw rules allow, encourage, beg us to have really fast race cars. There would never be a teardown because anything you can do or put into your engine is legal. Same with suspension parts! We could build a killer homemade setup from scratch or out of the Super Late Model catalog.

So basically you're telling me you are following the rules because there are NO RULES! Please stop my sides are starting to hurt.

Harold

[RallyBob]

Originally Posted by jeff denton Wonder if there might be a little play room to cheat that stroke a tad more? Still looking for a 2.2 crank, by the way. On this side of the world, please!

Jeff, when I build the 'phase 2' shortblock for my rallycar, it'll have the Toyota 5.428" rods, 2.2 crankshaft (offset ground to 81 mm), and a 97 mm bore in a 2.0 block. New displacement will be 2394 cc's, rod ratio 1.70, and total rotating and reciprocating mass will be very low.

Keep in mind Hiro ran into 'trouble' with the narrower Honda rod bearings and with the smaller 1.771" Honda journal. With the wider Toyota bearings and 1.889" rod journal, the issue is eliminated.

I'm going to retain the cylinder head I already have, a max-ported big valve 1.6 head that has been milled .085". So I should have about 13:1 compression with a flat-top piston in this combo. With a high-lift modest duration split-profile cam (.538"/.487" lift - 254*/248* @ .050" duration, 106° LSA), and 48 Dellortos, this will be a very flexible engine that can pull at 2500 or rev to 8500 rpms. Perfect for rally cars!

Bob

[jeff denton]

Oh yes there are rules, Harold, they are just so liberal that, having been so restricted by the home track's rules, it would feel like cheating very boldly but it isn't. Thus I must have a really bad engine to even think about maybe trying to be competitive. I mean, where did you ever see head and intake porting legal in stock car racing before? Or just skip all that fuss and plumb a little boost unit into the exhaust/intake sytems... It's okay.

Wow Bob, I take it that little extra stroke of the 2.2 pretty much clears up the compression ratio limits experienced with the 1.9. I'm liking the 2.2 more and more, just never really researched it because of the rules mentioned above. You know we never cheat. Ha.

Chris, I had no idea you're a gal. Somehow I assumed you were a guy. I don't even know why. Amazing.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by jeff denton Hiro mentioned that Toyota spec Eagle rod in the "con rod FAQ" thread. I just looked it up at several sites and see it can be had for about $320. It's 5.428" and 550g. Beat that. I don't have all my notes at home. Will be calculating piston c/d with that rod and 2.2 stroke ASAP. Wonder if there might be a little play room to cheat that stroke a tad more? Still looking for a 2.2 crank, by the way. On this side of the world, please!

yes yes Jeff I'm working on it don't worry!
this 2.2 crank can be offset grinded pretty much,
the problem is to find the right & cheap rod + forged piston set.
as Bob said I actually never used my Honda narrow rods,
the half-bearings are offset mounted so this adds another problem to the oiling hole issue.

with my Toyota rods I can go the same way as Bob's,
but this requires custom pistons with cd29.6mm.
on the other hand with my M10 rods I also get 2394cc but with a 1.67 rod ratio,
then I can use my Wossner pistons with 1mm block milling,
this combo is much cheaper for me as I already have all the parts in hand.
Hiro

[Bracketracer]

Used Chevy 283 pistons with my original CIH engine, making 2125 cc, higher compression and lots of torque with a cheater cam and a Weber 40DFI on the original head and intake.

The new engine combines a 2,2 crank and Chevy 307 pistons to get 2394 cc. Combined with a Henry Kickmaier head (dynoed to 238 net hp on 2,4) and matched dBilas intakes and dual Dellorto 48 DHLA carbs should make an improvement from the 15,0 at +100 mph...

Both combinations require block modification and CU rings in modified stock head gasket.

[lamchop77]

Jeff

Definately not a gal, well not from the last time i looked anyway, think its drunken firngers on the keyboard again!!!!!!!!

Chris

[jeff denton]

Originally Posted by lamchop77 Jeff Definately not a gal, well not from the last time i looked anyway, think its drunken firngers on the keyboard again!!!!!!!! Chris

Oh. Okay. I was gonna suggest you do a little check there. You must have figured out why I thought your gender was female?